Trio vs TruTrak

Lynn Dixon said:
Anybody catch the webinar last night? Andrew Barker from TruTrak said the firmware will be released around mid-May. Should include the integrations with Aspen E5 and Garmin G5.
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I did! Found it very helpful and informative...

I now understand the difference between "velocity" servos and "positional" servos better and why TruTrak do NOT want to let a pilot SEPARATELY disengage the lateral and vertical modes. (Trio allows it, but has a couple of "veiled" cautions against doing it.)

I did take away that integration is the new marketing track, and all seem to be on board the train except Garmin, which is too bad.. I think I would pass over some Garmin stuff and chose equipment that I was certain would allow me installation flexibility in the future.

Some promotion of course, of the TT and Bendix equipment as expected , but most of the time was on AP functions and the feature attributes and methodology.

Totally worth the 80 minutes .. :)

Cap
 
Any talk of a yaw damper on the TT? The more I look at the TT E5 combo, the more I like it. I do think Aspen should include the HSI at that pricepoint because Garmin is doing it and I think some sales will ultimately fold to Garmin over it.
 
Unit74 said:
Any talk of a yaw damper on the TT? The more I look at the TT E5 combo, the more I like it. I do think Aspen should include the HSI at that pricepoint because Garmin is doing it and I think some sales will ultimately fold to Garmin over it.
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They mentioned yaw dampeners a little, but did not mention them being added to the TruTrak Vizion or AeroCruze products.

The CDI/DG on the E5 gives you all the same exact information as an HSI, just in a different format. Reading over the pilots guide, I think its actually a little easier to read the information from the E5. But, I don't have a lot of experience behind an HSI either.
 
Lynn Dixon said:
They mentioned yaw dampeners a little, but did not mention them being added to the TruTrak Vizion or AeroCruze products.

The CDI/DG on the E5 gives you all the same exact information as an HSI, just in a different format. Reading over the pilots guide, I think its actually a little easier to read the information from the E5. But, I don't have a lot of experience behind an HSI either.
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you won't convince the average G5 buyer of that. The HSI is tried and true. Try convincing an industry this new way of doing it will work..... If the E5 had the HSI, I think Aspen would have a problem...... Production backorders.
 
Unit74 said:
Any talk of a yaw damper on the TT? The more I look at the TT E5 combo, the more I like it. I do think Aspen should include the HSI at that pricepoint because Garmin is doing it and I think some sales will ultimately fold to Garmin over it.
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Nothing mentioned in the Webinar Unit74... about a yaw dampener..

I was on another forum, the general consensus there was that a yaw dampener is kinda in another (upper) class of AP.. but who knows..

Auto pitch trim is DEFINATELY on the TruTrak radar though, certed approaches and IAS select is also there.. (both removed from the original plan to expedite the faster STC approval)

Aspen has a production issue already. The preorders are stacking up for the Max conversion/tradein. (essentially E5) Caught them off guard according to their Northeastern rep...

Have you looked at the "HSI" that is stock on the E5? "? I have not used one much, but the information is there... one of our plane partners who would use an HSI a lot seems really OK with it, as are many others.. You are correct though, including it as this point would be a killer..

Interestingly, the G3X conversation has died down quickly with the (lack of?) response of Garmin to "working with other stuff" questions... It was emphasized in the Webinar that TT and Bendix are committed to integrate with other equipments. Integration with the AeroVue Touch will happen.. TT has been approached by others... re: feeding data to the TT. Avidyne is looking to be able to feed "stepped down" vertical guidance data to the TT.

Garmin is not playing here at all.. In fact, strong rumor is that Garmin is going to change their proprietary data format to KEEP others from playing.. Its their business plan, but good luck with that...

Andrew did state that the Mooneys are next, Comanchies and Twincos are to follow to the AML., they are not sure after that, probably Grumman and Bos...

Anybody contemplating the addition of an AP really should have jumped on that Webinar last night. SUCH good info related to APs in general.

Beginning to look like TT has captured the "low cost" AP market in a very big way. It may be lacking some features for now, but the way it flies these little planes is nothing short of spectacular for a little 5 K$ piece of gear. From my own experience flying with the TT in our Warrior, you can thread needles in the sky with this AP. The accuracy holding directions, tracks and alts is deadly.

If your new "whizzit" cannot talk to the TruTrak and make it listen, your future market may be limited. From the Webinar, it was evident Andrew is pursuing an aggressive plan to make the TT feature rich in the integration with other equipments, perhaps by inserting a menu to tell it "whom" it is playing with. That could activate features that the other manufacturer worked with TT to make their PFD the choice..

We will see... :)

Cap
 
Thanks for the recap.... the question now is which one do I do first....TT or E5.
 
Yeah after that webinar it made me even more sure that I want to steer very clear of Garmin because of their vendor lock-in market strategy. I mean if your ok with going all in on Garmin youll probably will be happy, but your stuck with them in your panel. I like having options.
 
Unit74 said:
Thanks for the recap.... the question now is which one do I do first....TT or E5.
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I'd do the TruTrak first. It will give you the most bang for your buck. Especially if you don't already have an autopilot The TruTrak paired with a good navigator makes for way much less pilot workload.

All an E5 does is give you a pretty display. Heh. Same as the G5 or any other attitude /dg replacement
 
Unit74 said:
Thanks for the recap.... the question now is which one do I do first....TT or E5.
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UR not alone... I hope we can wait for the Aspen (DG getting noisy) until the software integration is on line.... If earlier we will have to fly the plane to the Aspen dealer to get the software flashed.. Not a HUGE deal, but... The TT head just goes back to TT for the flash..

I would do the TT first, lots of value in your flying right there... We are holding off on the Aspen until it is ready, and with summer arriving, we don't REALLY want to take the aircraft "off line" until next winter.. Lots of winter non flying days to plant the Aspen in the panel....

C
 
Lynn Dixon said:
Yeah after that webinar it made me even more sure that I want to steer very clear of Garmin because of their vendor lock-in market strategy. I mean if your ok with going all in on Garmin youll probably will be happy, but your stuck with them in your panel. I like having options.
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Especially with new "Options" arriving (it seems)…. monthly... I think we are just getting started...

C
 
I thought Aspen was done with the software. I knew the TT would have to be updated via UPS... but what’s this about the Aspen also having to be updated?
 
Lynn Dixon said:
I'd do the TruTrak first. It will give you the most bang for your buck. Especially if you don't already have an autopilot The TruTrak paired with a good navigator makes for way much less pilot workload.

All an E5 does is give you a pretty display. Heh. Same as the G5 or any other attitude /dg replacement
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Ahhh…. Look at the displays in the sunlight... not the same at all.

Aspen has a TFT display, easy to see in the sunlight and with polarised glasses. The LED Garmin displays are "washed out" in the sunlight (read - barely visible) and are difficult with polarised glasses..

A world of difference...
 
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Unit74 said:
I thought Aspen was done with the software. I knew the TT would have to be updated via UPS... but what’s this about the Aspen also having to be updated?
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I asked the question directly to Mike Studley, Aspen's Northeast rep. He responded that the PRESENT Aspen firmware would have to be upgraded to work with all 4 features of the Aspen<>TT interface. The upgrade can be done in a few minutes by an Aspen dealer.. AFTER the interface/softwares mods are approved and in production, it will be included in all Aspens shipped.

I think the heading bug will work now. The other features will require the upgrade.
 
cappy48 said:
Ahhh…. Look at the displays in the sunlight... not the same at all.

Aspen has a TFT display, and easy to see in the sun and with polarised glasses. The LED Garmin displays are "washed out" in the sunlight (read - barely visible) and are difficult with polarised glasses..

A world of difference...
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I wasn't meaning to compare the E5 to the G5... the E5 is miles better in readability. I was comparing the "added feature" of either the G5 / E5 compared to the normal steam gauges they replace. Sure it condenses all the information in a nice to read display, but really, they aren't delivering any more value --in the cockpit-- than the steam gauges. (not mentioning vacuum removal though). I was sayi g that if I only had the money to install a E5/G5 or a TruTrak but not both, I would install the TruTrak first, as that would give me the most bang-for-my-buck when it comes to reduction in pilot workload, and usability. It makes long trips super fun.
 
Lynn Dixon said:
I wasn't meaning to compare the E5 to the G5... the E5 is miles better in readability. I was comparing the "added feature" of either the G5 / E5 compared to the normal steam gauges they replace. Sure it condenses all the information in a nice to read display, but really, they aren't delivering any more value --in the cockpit-- than the steam gauges. (not mentioning vacuum removal though). I was sayi g that if I only had the money to install a E5/G5 or a TruTrak but not both, I would install the TruTrak first, as that would give me the most bang-for-my-buck when it comes to reduction in pilot workload, and usability. It makes long trips super fun.
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Understood..

As an aside, our TT is still "fun" to play with, trying to "wring it out" and see what it can do.. Particularly impressed with the deadly accuracy of the system. ALT hold literally "sticks" the altimeter, and the magenta line is directly under the aircraft, even zoomed in in a crosswind... Making "long trips super fun".

It will fade into "utility" mode eventually, but not yet! :)
 
cappy48 said:
Understood..

As an aside, our TT is still "fun" to play with, trying to "wring it out" and see what it can do.. Particularly impressed with the deadly accuracy of the system. ALT hold literally "sticks" the altimeter, and the magenta line is directly under the aircraft, even zoomed in in a crosswind... Making "long trips super fun".

It will fade into "utility" mode eventually, but not yet! :)
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I honestly never thought I would consider a long trip "fun", but I still get happy when I my TruTrak is flying the airplane likes its on rails. I also love how the IFD does the predictive turns, essentially "rounding the corners" and the TruTrak follows it like a seasoned pilot. I still sort of giggle like a school girl on the inside when I see a turn coming up, and then my IFD does the little "bong-bing" to let me know its turning, and then the TT just gently rolls into the turn and rolls out dead on heading.

Another thing I love is the altitude pre-select. I get it dialed in on the ramp, take-off get, out of the pattern, turn on course and engage the AP and let it climb the airplane to my cruise altitude and keep me on the magenta line as I watch for traffic and manage the engine on the way up.

Best money I have ever spent on any airplane.
 
Lynn Dixon said:
I honestly never thought I would consider a long trip "fun", but I still get happy when I my TruTrak is flying the airplane likes its on rails. I also love how the IFD does the predictive turns, essentially "rounding the corners" and the TruTrak follows it like a seasoned pilot. I still sort of giggle like a school girl on the inside when I see a turn coming up, and then my IFD does the little "bong-bing" to let me know its turning, and then the TT just gently rolls into the turn and rolls out dead on heading.

Another thing I love is the altitude pre-select. I get it dialed in on the ramp, take-off get, out of the pattern, turn on course and engage the AP and let it climb the airplane to my cruise altitude and keep me on the magenta line as I watch for traffic and manage the engine on the way up.

Best money I have ever spent on any airplane.
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Hehe.... I resemble that... :)

I also like the way it approaches the Preset Alt. Actually slows the VS and approaches the preset gently and settles on it. I flew an AP years ago that "pushed over" rather abruptly at the preset. Thought there was something wrong the first time when it slowed the VS, was not sure it was going to make it all the way, but it "snuck up" on the preset and nailed it! Did it again to be sure.. We have had a few "holy --it" moments with this thing. Like a 180 deg procedure turn on a "Direct to" The plane rolled out gently on the reciprocal and flew through it's own prop wash ! (ya, I know.. but it was a dead calm day, no wind, nor even a wiggle.... so it had to be the propwash/wake. )

Another day I gave this thing a target alt, a direct to, and a VS the plane could not maintain (so it had to engage the Min Speed function) and said GO. Up we go, bumped against the min speed, I gave it a 90 deg deviation, let it settle, then another direct to and it turned to the inbound track and leveled off at the targ alt, all the time holding the min speed (with warning) .. We looked at each other with that OMG look.. :) Not sure how much else I could throw at it at one time...…. The 30K$ legacy rate based APs can't touch this thing for accuracy.

The fun continues… :)
 
How does it manage envelope protection? Sure, you can VS it but how does it keep the airspeed in check?
 
Unit74 said:
How does it manage envelope protection? Sure, you can VS it but how does it keep the airspeed in check?
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Its plumbed into both the pitot and static lines. It knows what airspeed you are going. The automatic envelope protection works great. If it's active it will nudge you back if you bank oner 45 degrees (maybe 40 don't remember exact) and it will nose up or down to prevent stall or overspeed.
 
Unit74 said:
How does it manage envelope protection? Sure, you can VS it but how does it keep the airspeed in check?
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To add to Lynn's comments...

The Min and Max speeds are set in the Setup menu..

The Max speed is set for (.9X Vne in Knots), the Min speed is set at (1.3 Vs clean) in Knots.
If approaching Min speed, it pitches down and warns that the plane is at Min sped, at Max speed it warns and pitches up to limit the speed.. We have seals and VGs so our min speed is set lower than a stock Warrior..

Env Prot kicks in at 40 Deg bank, and nudges you back to 40 Deg if the angle is exceeded..

40 Deg is an important number. This is at about the bank angle that that "pitch UP" starts to have a different result. Less than 40, "up" is "up" . Beyond 40, "up" starts to tighten the turn and soon becomes "down".

This is why TT do not allow the Lateral and vertical modes to be engaged separately. It is risky to have the AP controlling pitch without knowing what the bank angle is. Causing the AP to pitch up to hold alt in a steep bank would be very dangerous. Engaged, the Max bank angle is about 15-18 degrees.

With Vert only engaged, in IMC, an AP could get you into a spiral …..

FWIW :)
 
Hmmm... thinking….

From other sources, and BECAUSE this us a thread titled "Trio vs TruTrak" .

Not to crap on the Trio (it flies planes very well) .. but it will allow you to engage the lateral and vertical modes separately, and I can imagine where this might be nice to do.

BUT...

It also allows you to DISCONNECT them separately. It is easy to disco an AP inadvertently in turbulence and reaching around the yoke at busy (and distracting) times. (ya, I know there is a light and an alarm.. but...) Trio recommends wiring a SINGLE disco button for BOTH modes, but (I am told) many have been wired with separate disco buttons (as the wiring diagram shows). It is possible to accidentally disco ONE mode only, and the alarm is the same whether you disco the vert, horz or both...

Has happened.... (according to others) Apparently some installers follow the diagram unless the owner inputs different instructions...

I have been told some other APs allow this as well.....but no direct knowledge...

FWIW...
 
What I still do not understand what GPS nav is.

GPSS..... I get. The box tells the AP what to do. On a flight plan, follow the line.
 
Unit74 said:
What I still do not understand what GPS nav is.

GPSS..... I get. The box tells the AP what to do. On a flight plan, follow the line.
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Gps nav is basically the same thing as GPSS except it will not anticipate turns. So if a flight plan there is a turn it will blow past it then recapture after it passes it. But most modern boxes put out the GPSS signal anyway. Heck even my Gx60 does.
 
simtech said:
Gps nav is basically the same thing as GPSS except it will not anticipate turns. So if a flight plan there is a turn it will blow past it then recapture after it passes it. But most modern boxes put out the GPSS signal anyway. Heck even my Gx60 does.
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SimTech has it... exactly..

We have the panel GPS delivering GPSS on the ARINC 429 buss... And the G 796 on the yoke delivering GPS Nav on the RS 232 data connection. We use a 3PST switch to select one or the other. The TT will accept either...
 
Both require a flight plan loaded and active correct? I somehow think that GPS nav has some sort of correlation with a heading bug or CDI. For instance, on the GTN, I can spin the Desired radial indicator on the GI106 and the GTN will show the selected radial on the GPS. This does not drive the AP correct? Almost like a heading bug, but the GPS knows I want a specific degree head8ng so it goes and gets it.

Can you see here I am confused? :crazy::idea:
 
cappy48 said:
SimTech has it... exactly..

We have the panel GPS delivering GPSS on the ARINC 429 buss... And the G 796 on the yoke delivering GPS Nav on the RS 232 data connection. We use a 3PST switch to select one or the other. The TT will accept either...
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I was kinda wondering about doing the same thing on my Aspen E5 / IFD540 / TruTrak combo. Would be nice to have some sort of switch I could flip to have the IFD540 connect directly to the Trutrak, bypassing the Aspen E5 in the event it goes belly up. I don't think it can be done though. If I knew that the Aspen would just pass-through all the ARINC information to the TruTrak if it dies would be OK to.

I just don't want to loose GPSS on my auto-pilot if my Aspen fails.
 
Unit74 said:
Both require a flight plan loaded and active correct? I somehow think that GPS nav has some sort of correlation with a heading bug or CDI. For instance, on the GTN, I can spin the Desired radial indicator on the GI106 and the GTN will show the selected radial on the GPS. This does not drive the AP correct? Almost like a heading bug, but the GPS knows I want a specific degree head8ng so it goes and gets it.

Can you see here I am confused? :crazy::idea:
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Hehe... OK... Let's see...

>>>Both require a flight plan loaded and active correct?

Correct!

>>For instance, on the GTN, I can spin the Desired radial indicator on the GI106 and the GTN will show the selected radial on the GPS. This does not drive the AP correct?

Correct again.. :)

The GPS track displayed on the TT is the DIRECTION of a series of GPS "positions" that string together to form a "track". When you direct the TT manually to proceed on a track (GPS signal present) it steers the plane in the direction needed to "produce" the desired track, again a string of desired "positions". This is not a heading , just a series of positions going in the desired direction of sequenced positions. The information is communicated in a data sentence that must be in "GPS Format" so that the connected instruments understand each other. If the GTN was able to output that radial heading in GPS format, (a series of GPS positions), the TT could follow that. I am not sure it can do that, that would in essence be a "heading bug", a normal function of most PFDs, not navigators. Maybe someone more familiar with the GTN can help out here...

Or cheat!

Manually plot a flight plan (rubberband it) along that desired radial, and the TT will follow THAT. Display the radial, drag a WP to the end of it, and the AP will take you there. You are in essence moving the magenta line to the desired radial, and the AP can understand it. I can do this on the 796, choose the heading on the screen, create a waypoint, drag it to the desired heading and release it and you will go off in the desired direction, the AP dutifully following the (newly created/modified) magenta line.

If it is an ATC requested deviation for traffic, it is easier to disco the nav (mode button), squeeze the CWS, manually turn to the new heading and release. Deviation complete, press the mode button, let the AP find the original course line, intercept it and resume life in the lane..

In the absence of a GPS position signal, the TT reverts to its internal gyro which works surprisingly well.
 
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Lynn Dixon said:
I was kinda wondering about doing the same thing on my Aspen E5 / IFD540 / TruTrak combo. Would be nice to have some sort of switch I could flip to have the IFD540 connect directly to the Trutrak, bypassing the Aspen E5 in the event it goes belly up. I don't think it can be done though. If I knew that the Aspen would just pass-through all the ARINC information to the TruTrak if it dies would be OK to.

I just don't want to loose GPSS on my auto-pilot if my Aspen fails.
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YA.. can be done.. The switch would have to switch the nav data between the TT and the Aspen. Use a 3PST (on - on) switch. "Normal" position sends nav or GPSS data to the Aspen, and the Aspen will act as a switch in selecting which Nav steering device you want. I am fairly sure that if the Aspen fails, it will not "pass through" data. (perhaps would depend on the exact nature of the failure) In fail, flip the switch to connect the navigator directly to the TT and you are good to go.
 
How many inputs will the TT take? Aspen told me the E5 was one unless it was upgraded to MAX.
 
Unit74 said:
How many inputs will the TT take? Aspen told me the E5 was one unless it was upgraded to MAX.
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Never heard of the Max upgrade being required for inputs..

From the E5 Spec section of their website..

I/O Specifications:

ARINC 429 Inputs 5 Low Speed
ARINC 429 Outputs 1 Low Speed
RS-232 Inputs 5
RS-232 Outputs 3
Pitot / Static Quick Connect

With converters (available) you can also hook legacy equipment to the 5 ARINC inputs... There are a total of 10 inputs plus the "plumbing"

Here is the "Book of words"
https://aspenavionics.com/documents...C EFD1000 E5 Dual EFI Installation Manual.pdf

It details all the wiring and the available inputs at about page 85. It will listen to just about anything... (Radar altimeter anyone?) :)
 
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Let me clarify....

Aspen told me the e5 could only be driven from one nav source. So with a 430W and a SL 30, I can only use the 430W OR the SL30 to drive the E5. I’d have to go pro or Max to get multi and selectable sources.
 
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Unit74 said:
Let me clarify....

Aspen told me the e5 could only be driven from one nav source. So with a 430W and a SL 30, I can only use the 430W OR the SL30 to drive the E5. I’d have to go pro or Max to get multi and selectable sources.
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A NAV source is different than a GPS source. You should be able to have the Aspen take inputs from one GPS and One NAV (nav radio).
 
Unit74 said:
Let me clarify....

Aspen told me the e5 could only be driven from one nav source. So with a 430W and a SL 30, I can only use the 430W OR the SL30 to drive the E5. I’d have to go pro or Max to get multi and selectable sources.
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OK... ONE NAV source... OK with that, but bears clarification, I will ask at the next opportunity.. That's very different than one INPUT..

Not withstanding, you can use an external switch to make the selection, on ANY input. You could have 4 NAV sources, through a 4 position switch, into one NAV input on the Aspen or anything else...

But the Aspen (like anything else) can only listen to ONE source at any one time...

When I last spoke with Mike Studley of Aspen, he indicated that the E5 would select any one Nav source, and would present it on the screen (like ILS) and pass on the horiz steering and vert steering to the TT in a ARINC 429 data sentence.

Thanks for the heads up and starting the discussion... :)
 
Any gouge whether TT and Aspen are talking to each other yet?
 
The software should be released around Oshkosh.
 
Jesse Saint said:
The software should be released around Oshkosh.
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Have they said what the functionality will be? Might be the diff between buying G5s and an Aspen if it's significant...... Any more probs with the RSM?
 
Initially the features will be much the same between the two, but there is hope that Aspen will send more data to the TruTrak than the G5 will.
 
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