Traveling in old airplanes

Chrisgoesflying

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Chrisgoesflying
How reliably can one travel in an old piston engine airplane? I got my license and first plane in the summer of 2019 and had big plans to travel across North America. Obviously, I took my time to build hours and confidence before doing any longer x-countries but since the summer of 2020 I started flying fairly long x-countries, within Canada only due to COVID, but nevertheless, I've taken my planes pretty much from the west coast to Winnipeg.

Now, my last two major trips didn't go as planned at all. In one, I lost my tach, had to land at the most inconvenient little airport around, plane was down for two weeks waiting for parts and then waiting for me to pick it up. On my current trip, I noticed a fuel leak on the fuel selector. Plane down for a week, waiting for parts.

Prior to those two issues, I had to cancel two trips because once I had a stuck valve (which resulted in having to rebuild the engine - long story) the day before the trip and once I noticed a small oil leak which ended up being nothing and my mechanic said I could have flown the plane after he looked at it the next week. These two issues were with my previous plane, not the one I currently own.

This seems like a lot of issues. Now, to be fair, I had hundreds of trips with no issues at all and maybe it's just the fact that I had two issues back to back that causes me to lose faith in GA.

I'm realistic enough to not expect time savings when flying GA. I'm a VFR pilot so weather delays are common. I just enjoy flying much more than driving so if driving to Florida takes three days and 30 hours drive time or it takes 5 days (due to weather) and 15 hours of air time, I'd still choose flying any day of the week.

But, being down for unscheduled maintenance for weeks on end while traveling is really annoying. Especially now that I started flying south of the border, this can cause real issues as I have a "leave by" date whenever visiting the U.S. Again, I plan my return with several days of possible weather delays but I obviously can't take into account 1+ weeks of downtime due to issues every time.

Lastly, my plane is a 1966 Cherokee 140 (with 160 hp) with a very low time engine (200 hours) and a fairly recent OH (2015). I consider myself as someone who takes care well of the plane. I don't skimp on maintenance. If something needs to be fixed, I have my mechanic fix it, no questions asked. Last annual (merely two weeks ago) I put in a brand new interior and did some other little upgrades - nothing was found during the annual.

So, my question here is, how often do you run into (somewhat) major issues that cause a major delay or inconvenience with your planes and what do you fly? Is it once every 10 trips, once every 100 trips? Or are you reading this and thinking "my god, this sh** never happened to me in 20 years of flying!".
 
This much shoot hasn’t happened to me in 20+ years of flying.

In recent times, I had a fuel leak when we landed at Santa Fe. Local shop fixed me up.
 
Funny you should post this. I've been thinking about this today myself. I bought my Lance about 16 months ago. I've made 4 "big" family trips.

-Texas trip was successful, although I had a fuel pressure issue that concerned me and I spent half a day with a mechanic checking things out.
-Minnesota trip went off without a hitch
-Branson, MO wound up with a declared emergency landing in St. Louis and driving home
-Florida trip... well you know.

Not a very good average. I'm not willing to give up yet, but I feel like I've had more than my fair share. I'll admit that I'm having doubts too.

We've had some awesome times too. My wife and I have made several shorter trips with no issue. Gastons, Rough River, French lick, Sikeston, Dayton, Chicago, Pella, Indianapolis, Oshkosh.... all without a hitch.

It just seems like whenever I load up the entire family something goes dramatically wrong. I see guys flying at night, over mountains, in imc....I don't know. I'm a little worried about how I'll feel getting back into my plane. Or any plane frankly. I'm going to get checked out in a 172 Monday. Hopefully that will fan the flames a bit.

I flew a club Dakota to Florida and Arkansas. The Archer to countless places. Never a mechanical issue in those planes in 250 hours. I'm hopeful things will get better with mine. There's not much left that hasn't broken yet.
 
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Even new equipment can have issues. You do exactly what I do...anything that looks suspicious gets replaced. Keeping up with minor maintenance items is my rule. But being prepared, mentally and schedule-wise like you say, for en-route mechanical issues is the best we can do building on a well and professionally maintained aircraft. I had a magneto quit during a long trip once but it was repaired in a few hours at an unscheduled stop. Heck, my daily drive car is almost 51 years old with 566 k on the clock. Would I drive it to the west coast (900 nm)? Yes, if I couldn't fly! But I do the maintenance items regularly and carry the usual suspect parts (fan belts, oil, points (remember those?) and plugs, etc. PLUS my AAA card :)
 
Since 2004 a 69 Cherokee took me to 47 states with 0 issues and 58 Comanche has taken me all over east of the Rockies with only 1 issue, and that actually had nothing to do with being old as it was the remote oil fliter upgrade that caused the problem, or more specifically the incorrect installation of it.
 
I have taken tens of trips of 800 miles or more in General Aviation planes more than 20 years old in the last ten years. I have never been stranded for mechanical reasons (knocking on my head, wood). I have not flown a plane less than 20 years old in a long time.

I have taken commercial airliners quite a bit in the last ten years, and been stranded overnight, at the least, more than one handful of times.

YMMV.
 
I can't remember anytime that I was stranded for mechanical issues in my own airplanes, and some were pretty old planes. The airplanes I rented from the flight schools are a different issue. I had lots of problems with them.
 
how often do you run into (somewhat) major issues that cause a major delay or inconvenience with your planes and what do you fly?
To give you a mx perspective, the issues I fixed over the years were more related to aircraft condition than age or type. Now whether you would consider them "major" issues I would defer to your definition. But on the catastrophic issue side where a "major" component needed to be changed on an aircraft passing through were very rare. The top 2 issues I ran across were electrical and leaks which once you repaired them it was usually evident that it could have been prevented earlier. And this is even on a "well-maintained" aircraft. There are various proactive paths to follow to mitigate these type issues but it all starts at the owner. For example, one of the recommendations I gave my customers was to perform an in-depth review of the entire aircraft, outside the normal inspection schedule, with emphasis on the electrical system and any OEM recommended checks. Even if this was a one-time review there are things you will find or elect to perform that that will mitigate the chance of say an alternator going off-line in BFE. While it's not 100% fool-proof it does go a long way in taking care of the obvious issues.
 
It is a crapshoot and reading the above the odds will be masked by anecdotes. Is it 1 in a 100 chance of being stuck somewhere, or in a 1000 (hours or trips)? My handful of maintenance issues were considerate enough to fit my schedule. Starter blowing up at the home fuel pumps, fuel sender molex fraying on the way to planned mx, MAP sensor clog(?) at destination with a week stay - and all of these were unrelated to the 40+ year old engine or airframe, as they were newer parts. Well cared for helps, but good luck divining the quality of care over decades (hint - it varies down to the mechanic and how good of a day they were having). So, you take your chances and have space in your life for it being a journey in addition to arriving somewhere. There’s a reason quite a few pilots have hung up their wings, temporarily they say.
 
Old airplanes are fun, especially old airplanes that were owned by someone that really couldn't afford it. Maintenance gets shorted. Defects get deferred. Inspections become a joke. And the new owner gets stuck with it all. Much of the time he spends the money to fix it all, flies it for a while, then sells it, and the next owner gets a relatively trouble-free airplane.

Besides that, though, I often see commonality in stories of getting stuck somewhere. Alternator failures, magneto failures, starter failures, vacuum pump failures. Note that the first three are electrical, and electrical troubles tend to make up 90% of engine-related problems.

Fuel selectors leaking? They seldom just start leaking. They seep, slowly, and leave evidence of it as a blue stain. But to catch that, the annual has to mean that the inspector looks at that valve, and in most cases that means the floor being opened up or a side panel coming off, and that takes time, which costs money, which tends to mean that the selector doesn't get looked at. I have found a blue stain in an aircraft belly that was actually an eighth of an inch thick, meaning that the seep had been going on for years, and nobody spotted it. I've found the short pieces of rubber hose connecting lengths of aluminum fuel tubing all cracked and rotted, never caught at inspections. Ever. Seeping sometimes. This stuff takes time to develop, and if you give it time and ignore it, it will develop.

The failed alternators, mags and vacuum pumps happen because the airframe manufacturer's recommendations are ignored. Cessna, for instance, has, as part of its inspection schedules, notes stipulating that alternators be removed and inspected internally every 500 hours. That means that the fraying wiring and cracking terminals should also get caught. Their brushes wear out much faster than the ones in your car's alternator, since the airplane's alternator is running near redline all the time, while your car's is running at maybe 30% of redline, at most. Mags are to be removed and inspected internally every 500 hours (Slick) or 400 hours (Bendix). Vacuum pumps have a life limit, as do their plastic drive couplings. Tempest and Rapco pumps have vane wear inspection provisions to avoid replacing the pump at 600 hours; by monitoring the wear you can get full life out of it while avoiding the risk of failure. Takes five minutes to check the wear. Pump doesn't even come off. Starter failures are often due to mechanics or owners squirting oil into the drive (on Lycomings), attracting dust and creating a sticky sludge. The maintenance manuals tell you how to lubricate them, and THAT is not the way. Older Prestolite starters need their brushes checked every 100 hours. Other starter problems are often due to ignoring the little hints for some time: slow cranking, for instance, that could indicate contactors failing. They will finally quit in some out-of-the-way spot. Fuel boost pumps have a life limit, too. The list is long. And yet, most of this stuff is run until it quits. It's dumb. The solutions are right in the manuals.

So, we often blame the airplane and its bits and pieces, but it's the maintenance, not the airplane. These airplanes are similar to the cars of the 1960s that needed far more attention than cars do now. We drive cars that just keep going until we trade them off with a zillion miles on them, and whine when our 1970 airplane won't do the same. Or even our 2018 airplane. It still has those older systems that need checking.
 
My Bonanza is 55 years old. In the past 7 years it has taken me to 47 States and 4 Canadian provinces in about 1,200 hours flight time. One time in Tucson, the gear switch failed (wouldn't raise the gear) so I had to fly to Phoenix (Sky Harbor Class Bravo) with the gear down and spend the weekend there. Another time as we were crossing into Canada, the PTT button got stuck so we had to turn around and land in the US (Sault St Marie) and I moved the PTT button from the co-pilot side to the pilot side and proceeded to Anchorage.

I don't think that is too bad for an old airplane.
(of course though, there was the time about 12 years ago when the O360 in my C172 blew up in flight 5 miles from home and we had to put down on the highway and have it towed to an airport) That engine had about 1,500hours on it at the time.
 
One of the sad things in this world that we are so bound to work and schedules. One of the reasons I look forward to retirement. There are so many adventures to have and people to meet and so often we get caught up in the what ifs or let getting side tracked bring us down.

The trials of today are often the good old days of tomorrow.
 
From what I’ve seen, the age of the aircraft is less important than how it has been maintained. Even with minimal maintenance, light aircraft seem to be quite capable of extended length trips and heavy use. Most of the disabling problems that I’ve run across as a mechanic have come as a result of pilots/owners ignoring warning signs that would have told them there was trouble brewing. It usually comes from owners trying to control their maintenance costs (aka being cheap) or not understanding the systems in the aircraft they own/fly.
 
These airplanes are similar to the cars of the 1960s that needed far more attention than cars do now. We drive cars that just keep going until we trade them off with a zillion miles on them, and whine when our 1970 airplane won't do the same. Or even our 2018 airplane. It still has those older systems that need checking.

Bingo. Most people today don’t remember the days when a 300 mile trip to the beach was often complicated by a failed water pump, broken fan belt, or some other malady that is just like the failures we see in aviation. A shiny new Cirrus isn’t intrinsically more reliable than a 1960 172. Both require a lot of TLC to maintain dispatch reliability. If the owner doesn’t provide enough TLC, you’re much more likely to be stuck somewhere.
 
Regarding my relatively youthful 1980 Archer2 that I have owned since new, only a small handful of mechanical hiccups on long cross countries, and mostly the usual culprits. The vacuum pump went caput on the final leg to Disney World; no time lost since replacement done while vacationing at the park. Another time, my starter died on my intermediate stop enroute to Ohio, and nobody would swing the prop. I got a replacement put in at that FBO after the Thanksgiving holiday Thursday and Friday while rental car got me the rest of the way to turkey and back. Picked up the plane on Sunday to fly home. A few other minor enroute issues caused no significant delay.
I did have a local burger flight where the fuel selector locked up, which would have been a problem on a real x-country.
I also had a scare in Anchorage on my way back to the Northeast where my AI was slow to erect and making some noises. It actually got better enroute but 2 flight hours after arrival at home, my vacuum pump quit.(BTW, I carried a replacement vacuum pump in storage for that Alaska trip. All and all, minor stuff.

As others have mentioned, I think the big reason is fastidious maintenance. My proactive 500 hour alternator inspection showed good brushes, but one of my magnetos had a cracked rotor and would not have lasted much more flight hours. Those various hoses in the engine compartment get changed on age, as was recently done to the fuel line hoses in the wings after 7 years. The only drawback is my annuals have gotten regularly a lot more expensive, painfully so.
 
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I’ve owned my 1954 Cessna 170 for over a year now. I’m constantly looking at it while cleaning and oil changing. Anything out of the ordinary gets replaced. Ive done tires /tubes (worn tread), brake disks/pads (grooved), spinner (crack formed), replaced tail spring (preventative maintenance every 500 hrs), rebuilt fuel valve (seeping), replaced fuel valve later when it began seeping again, and had the slip/skid gyro rebuilt. I haven’t had to cancel a flight yet. I haven’t been down more than a week either. I flew over 100 hrs last year.

Previous owner was an A/P mechanic who fixed things and flew it 100 hrs a year.
 
I’ve flown my 1947 Cessna 140 all over the country, so far so good, the simplicity of design is a help for that, as was a good prebuy and pounding out any maintenance It needs as it needs it with no deferral of noticed things that could break… but I always make sure the credit card is zero balance before I depart and carry an extra $500 cash more than I plan on needing for the trip then I’m secure for hotel, rental cars n a repair.
 
I fly a 1953 Cessna. I have flown from Colorado to south Texas, Colorado to northern Minnesota 2 times, Colorado to Idaho 4 times, and in total about 350 hours since I bought it 5 years ago. Never once got stranded anywhere or had any issue I could not resolve quickly.
 
Ironic that I would post right after posting about a maintenance issue, but I have not had any (knock on wood) issues with dispatch on long trips. However, I know my alternator needs looked at soon.

I attribute this to two things:
1. When I bought the place 6 years ago I started my instrument training. This meant that I was pretty much flying daily for about 3 months. I found a LOT of problems. I feel like I redid the entire plane in that time. So much money was spent that I wondered if I could afford it!

2. I do a pretty thorough flight less than a week before a trip to try and catch anything that might cause a problem. I have caught one thing that needed fixed before a trip to date.

I will get stuck somewhere at some point, but I think I am still benefiting from the maintenance done in the first year of ownership. I will echo what others have said-changing vacuum pumps and inspecting mags is very important. I will add regularly checking tire pressure and replacing tires before the end of their life. That is much cheaper than a tire replacement away from home.
 
All of the states (except AK) colored in below were visited in a ‘68 C150, a ‘69 C172 or in my current ‘73 C182. I’ve been stuck for weather, but I don’t recall getting stuck because something broke. Now, I’ve had to cancel a few trips because something was wrong, but that’s been pretty rare.
 
@Chrisgoesflying It really depends how well the plane is sorted. If maintenance was done on the cheap with many annuals finding no airworthy issues, it's not unlikely to see issues arise on long flights away from home when the plane is getting a workout.

Deferred maintenance left out due to cost will eventually and suddenly catch-up. Examples include:
  • Overhauling the fuel strainer EXCEPT for the O-ring at the top sealing the drain plunger; or the very top O-ring in the OLEO struct assembly. I seen shops deliberately not change these due to effort required and "was serviceable" when the rest of the component was addressed.
  • Mag inspections
  • Old engines 20 years since scheduled overhaul, have issues with aged seals failing
  • Changing tires without changing tubes
  • 25 yo engine hoses
  • Aged brake cylinders & lines

Murphy's Law... guess when that 40 yo O-ring decides to fail?

It's usually all this small stuff overlooked for economic reasons that cause havoc traveling long distances.

Repairs "on condition" rather than the recommended maintenance schedule in the service manual, is saying "I'll fix it when it breaks".... which can be far from home.
 
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In my ‘65 Mooney, I’ve done without issue
  • 4 FL to OH or PA trips (600 nm)
  • 1 FL to upper peninsula Michigan trip (800 nm)
  • 1 FL to AZ trip (1600 nm)
  • 1 FL to TX then TN trip (500 or 600 nm)
  • Dozens of 400 nm trips
I am very active in the maintenance of my aircraft so I know when something is not right. Before a long trip I do what I call an “owner inspection”. A lot of what would be in an annual, but I check it myself. Particularly firewall forward, I inspect every component as closely as I can.
The only mechanical failure I’ve had was catastrophic and occurred on a short trip less than a 100 miles.
 
I have flown my '69 Arrow 200 to Montreal, Canada; OSH; and over the Rockies from my home base in Colorado Springs to Oregon (so many times I lost track), Washington state and and Utah multiple times; San Diego 2 or 3 times and Albuquerque dozens of times day and night. Good maintenance habits and good planning are the key for old AND new light aircraft flying as many above attest.
 
I jump seated on a DC-6 from Barrow to Anchorage that was once owned by Howard Hughes. I thought it was pretty cool to sit in the same pilot seat that Howard once sat in.
 
So, my question here is, how often do you run into (somewhat) major issues that cause a major delay or inconvenience with your planes and what do you fly? Is it once every 10 trips, once every 100 trips? Or are you reading this and thinking "my god, this sh** never happened to me in 20 years of flying!".

I’m living proof that you can reliably travel cross country in old piston airplanes.

I regularly fly cross countries for work and family in a 1960 Beech 18 and a 1941 North American T6.

Usually one trip a year from Virginia to AZ/CA and 4-5 trips per year to Fort Worth from Virginia.

In over 400 hours of flying the Twin Beech, I’ve only had to leave the airplane and airline home once.

In 200 hours of T6 flying, again, only once.

Contrast that to the 4 year old Lear jet that the local shop also maintains that has broken down several times on the road.

Main difference is that when the Lear breaks down, you have robust customer support and can get parts overnight. It is a bit of a crap shoot when something breaks on a 60-80 year old plane with no manufacturer support.
 
Based on the comments above, it does seem like it's a rare occurrence with well maintained airplanes. I guess my issues will average out eventually by years of reliable travel. At least that's what I'll have to tell myself for now haha. I appreciate all of your replies here. I'll respond to some of you below, in no particular order.

Fuel selectors leaking? They seldom just start leaking.

That's what I thought and funnily enough, just a week prior to my selector leaking, the plane underwent an EXTENSIVE annual inspection in which my entire interior was replaced, hence all panels were off. Neither I, nor my mechanic noticed any leaks. After the annual, I flew the plane to an airport closer to home but not my actual home airport. I had to park the plane outside for a week in really cold temps (-5F at night). When I arrived, my tanks were almost empty so I asked the ramp guy to fill up both tanks as I don't like keeping the plane outside with empty tanks. That a**hole acknowledged that he'll do it and I left for a meeting. A week later I came back, checked the tanks the night before my trip only to find out that he did not fuel up the plane. I don't know if this could have caused anything like a fuel leak, but that was the only thing that was different from other times I had to park the plane outside.

One of the sad things in this world that we are so bound to work and schedules

I'm very flexible. I work from wherever I am as long as I have an Internet connection and a good chunk of my income is semi-passive. However, some schedules I can't avoid i.e. "leave by" dates in my passport. Wish it wasn't the case but for now it is :-(


If maintenance was done on the cheap with many annuals finding no airworthy issues, it's not unlikely to see issues arise on long flights away from home when the plane is getting a workout.

I haven't had the plane for very long but just like with my previous planes, I think I take care well of my planes - that's why it's so upsetting. Now, obviously I can't speak for the previous owner but based on the logs, he took well care of the plane also, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. I bought a plane once from a previous owner who skimped on MX and even did some things himself that he technically wasn't allowed to do and I ended up reversing all of his crap and an engine rebuild. On my Cherokee, I knew better. The previous owner, a doctor, had the plane for 15 years. When he bought it, it was in storage and he, with the help of his mechanic, completely restored the plane back then. He flew on the old engine for a few years and then in 2015 (or around 2015, don't remember), he had the engine overhauled and upgraded to 160 HP via STC. All of his annual inspections looked pretty extensive, he kept all receipts, so at least for the last 15 years, I know the plane was well taken care of. Don't know prior to that. Since I've owned it, I did one annual on the plane, just a few weeks ago and during that annual, I had the entire interior stripped and installed a new interior. New side panels, new carpets. I told the mechanic about all the little snags I noticed while flying locally and all were addressed. I also told him that I don't want to skimp on MX. If he thinks something needs to be done, he should let me know. He found nothing. And the mechanic comes highly recommended, especially for Cherokees. Everything he suggested are personal preference suggestions i.e. install ADS-B (we don't have the requirement in Canada), installing a glass panel, installing some speed mods, etc.

Upgrading my avionics is a project for next year (this year's project was the interior) and I don't really care much for fairings to go 2 mph faster. If speed was a concern of mine, I wouldn't be flying a Cherokee.

Long story short, I think the plane has been well cared for, at least by me and the previous owner, from what I can see. That's why it's so frustrating having these issues. I would totally get it if I kept deferring MX.

But again, based on y'alls responses, hopefully the law of averages will hopefully kick in, giving me years of worry-free flying with the Cherokee, especially since I'm planning on keeping this one long term - at least until I can afford my forever plane.
 
A precautionary landing to a podunk field and 2 weeks of inconvenience for a failed tachometer (on a fixed-pitch plane no less) seems reactionary to me.

I would agree with this statement and if that happened again, I would push on to my home field or, at least a more convenient airport. However, that was the first time I had an issue like this, I consider myself a low time pilot (under 200 hours PIC) and I had the whole family on board. The gauge was jumping up and down while making a loud grinding noise. I didn't want to take any chances, especially at -15F OAT that day. The two weeks downtime is mostly due to terrible supply chain issues, especially with parts coming from the U.S. to Canada at the moment.
 
Neither I, nor my mechanic noticed any leaks.
FYI: the funny thing about "noticing" things like this is that in a lot of cases unless you are specifically looking for a fuel leak you'll glance right over the signs of one. That is mainly why even well maintained aircraft have issues like this pop-up. But from a different perspective its quite possible the work you performed replacing the interior like pushing on those fuel lines or valve during the fit/install process may have aggravated an unknown issue which led to the leak. Its this latter scenario that I've found leads to "new" issues cropping up especially on the electrical side. Just something to think about.
 
A week later I came back, checked the tanks the night before my trip only to find out that he did not fuel up the plane. I don't know if this could have caused anything like a fuel leak, but that was the only thing that was different from other times I had to park the plane outside.
Low fuel won't cause a leak. Old O-rings will, and cold weather will accelerate that. Polymers shrink more than metal in the cold, and they harden as well, and old o-rings take a "set" so that they aren't exerting as much force on the walls of their cavities. Any shrinkage due to cold can leave them a bit loose and prone to leaking.

The Cessna nosegear oleo will suddenly leak and lose all its oil and pressure in very cold weather. That bottom o-ring shrinks and grabs the strut barrel, and as the strut moves the o-ring gets spun in the groove and suffers a spiral fracture failure. Even fairly fresh o-rings can do it.

Edit: I should mention that any oil on the strut barrel will get really sticky in the cold, and will cause o-ring failure quickly. That is one reason I would never wipe down that barrel with 5606 or any other lubricant; the other is the fact that it just gathers dust and grit that starts grinding away at the barrel, bushing and seals. You get the thin layer of chrome scuffed off that barrel and it soon rusts and pits.

And all those problems are made worse by the ancient polymers used in AN/MS O-rings. Buna N is a neoprene, a WW2 invention. Since then we have had many new compounds that would work much better, but using them needs approval. The restart Cessnas use them in the fuel systems. Without service bulletins approving them in older airplanes, or updated parts catalogs, you're stuck with the old stuff and you need to maintain it. Cessna still uses the old stuff in the nosegear.

Some mechanics make the mistake of using MS28775 o-rings in the fuel system. That series is for hydraulic and other stuff. The right stuff is the MS29513, compatible with fuel. Still, they're both old technologies.
 
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I have flown my Dakota from Reno, across the USA 6 or 7 times and onward to the Bahamas, Cuba, Mexico and Guatemala. I had a 24 hour delay in El Paso once due to a stuck valve.
 
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In 2700+ hours of GA flying, I can only recall 2 incidents of MX issues causing a trip cancelation. One was a flat tire on landing roll-out and the other was the failure of the hangar door (closed) that meant my plane was trapped in the hangar. Possible I'm forgetting one or two but I have definitely been pretty lucky.

Don't get me wrong, I've had plenty of things break/need repair (including a crack in the case of my IO550 that totalled the engine) but that was discovered post-flight.
 
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