Transitting Class D while on flight following

[mikehoover]

What is the procedure for transitting Class D airspace while on flight following? I have heard that there is no need to contact the Class D tower for permission to transit. Is this true? Example: flight from SC to Atlanta, GA, while on flight following with ATL, can you simply flight thru Athen's Class D without communicating with their tower? Does ATL ATC override? Thanks!
Mike

 

[Skip Miller]

Yes you can. You are in contact with air traffic control, which is the requirement to enter the D space. It is the controller's job to coordinate with the D tower.

In my experience it is more likely that the controller will switch you to the D tower freq. or drop you from FF and let you contact the tower on your own. It all depends on ATC workload and whatever working arrangements exist between approach and the tower. However, if you hear nothing, motor on through the D space. If you are nervous about it, ask. If approach has enough time to coordinate your trip through the D space, then he has enough time to answer the question.

-Skip

 

[EdFred]

Just fly at 2700 AGL and don't worry about delta space.

 

[Dean]

All my experiences have been ATC with hand you off to the class D approach and then when you are out of their airspace, give you back to ATC or give the " Freq change approved, squawk 1200 good day".

 

[poadeleted20]

All my experiences have been ATC with hand you off to the class D approach and then when you are out of their airspace, give you back to ATC or give the " Freq change approved, squawk 1200 good day".

Not sure I understand this, because Approach Control is part of ATC, as are Centers and Towers, and it is Tower, not Approach, who controls the Class D airspace around a towered airport.

In any event, if you're receiving flight following from approach/center and your path will transit Class D (or non-D tower-controlled airspace, and yes, Virginia, there is such a thing), it is the approach/center controller's responsibility to either:

1. Coordinate your transit with Tower while keeping you on approach/center freq, or
2. Hand you off to Tower prior to entering the Class D, or
3. Terminate radar service and clear you off freq in time to cold-call Tower yourself.

Bottom line is that in this case, you don't have to think, just do what you're told.

 

[midlifeflyer]

In my experience it is more likely that the controller will switch you to the D tower freq. or drop you from FF and let you contact the tower on your own.

This probably varies a lot from place to place. For example, my experience is exactly the opposite of yours.

 

[Chairboy]

I've never been dropped from FF to transit D or C, they've always handled it. The only time I've ever been dropped from FF with B was because they wanted me to talk to the tower directly, but most of the time they leave me with approach.

If this experience is different from yours, Mr. Miller, then it might be a west coast vs. east coast thing, all my flying has been WA/OR/CA/NV etc.

 

[inav8r]

it is the approach/center controller's responsibility to either:

1. Coordinate your transit with Tower while keeping you on approach/center freq, or
2. Hand you off to Tower prior to entering the Class D, or
3. Terminate radar service and clear you off freq in time to cold-call Tower yourself.

Bottom line is that in this case, you don't have to think, just do what you're told.

The first time I ever flew into HLG (VFR w/ FF), Cleveland Center handed me off to PIT approach who then handled me all the way to the ground - on final they advised me to contact tower once off the runway. It was a weird situation - one I've not encountered since. Usually they want to hand you off to the tower once you have the airport in sight. I can only assume he had the tower guy on the phone - as no one complained or said anything to me after my arrival.

What I didn't like about it was not being able to hear the other traffic calls on the tower freq. I did bring up the tower freq on my other radio - and I didn't hear any traffic - but it's definitely a situation I don't like to be in.

 

[TMetzinger]

Be warned of one special case... New York approach will terminate your flight following while you're about 100 feet above Farmingdale's "D" space rather than hand you off to tower - and then the tower will be POed if you descend into the "D" space without contacting them first. All within the letter of the regs, but not what most folks expect.

That happened to me about 5 years ago, and it was clear that folks up there did not want to talk to each other. I'm not sure if it's improved.

 

[Skip Miller]

This probably varies a lot from place to place. For example, my experience is exactly the opposite of yours.

I fully agree.... that's why I worded my response with "in my experience.." Implied but not stated was YMMV.

-Skip

 

[Eamon]

Be warned of one special case... New York approach will terminate your flight following while you're about 100 feet above Farmingdale's "D" space rather than hand you off to tower - and then the tower will be POed if you descend into the "D" space without contacting them first. All within the letter of the regs, but not what most folks expect.

That happened to me about 5 years ago, and it was clear that folks up there did not want to talk to each other. I'm not sure if it's improved.

Did the controler say "you are heading toward FRG, Please state intentions" ?

Maybe he was trying to save you from the game of chance of FRG

 

[TMetzinger]

Did the controler say "you are heading toward FRG, Please state intentions" ?

Maybe he was trying to save you from the game of chance of FRG

Actually I had cancelled IFR earlier after dropping back below FL180 west of the NY airspace, and was getting flight following (FRG was my destination). As I recall, I was descending, called the field in sight (sort of prodding for a handoff) and was immediately dropped from flight following. I thought I was already IN FRG's "D" when I called the field in sight, so I was surprised at no handoff. And then when I called tower (after descending a little further, and was then definitely in his space), he was angry with me. We had a productive chat on the ground later.

I made it a policy after that to keep the IFR when going to FRG - just made it much easier. I'd often cancel once talking to tower if I had good wx.

 

[Dean]

Not sure I understand this, because Approach Control is part of ATC, as are Centers and Towers, and it is Tower, not Approach, who controls the Class D airspace around a towered airport.

In any event, if you're receiving flight following from approach/center and your path will transit Class D (or non-D tower-controlled airspace, and yes, Virginia, there is such a thing), it is the approach/center controller's responsibility to either:

1. Coordinate your transit with Tower while keeping you on approach/center freq, or
2. Hand you off to Tower prior to entering the Class D, or
3. Terminate radar service and clear you off freq in time to cold-call Tower yourself.

Bottom line is that in this case, you don't have to think, just do what you're told.

I am just going off my experiences, flying to or through Jefferson City(KJEF) using KC Center, they will hand you off to Mizzou App, if you land they hand you off to the tower. If you don't, they will either give you back to KCC or have you go VFR after you clear the class d. I have never been turned over to the tower when transitioning the class d, I have always stayed with approach.

 

[poadeleted20]

That happened to me about 5 years ago, and it was clear that folks up there did not want to talk to each other. I'm not sure if it's improved.

It hasn't, and I think it's more a matter of FRG being a "non-radar" tower physically remote from the NY TRACON combined with the large volume of flight ops at FRG (including a lot of students for whom English isn't even a second language) than not wanting to talk to each other.

 

[bobmrg]

By Letter of Agreement between the radar facility and the tower, in most cases the top 500 feet of the tower's airspace is ceded to the radar facility. Ergo, if your altitude is in that 500-foot slice the radar facility will not hand you off because you are not leaving his/her airspace. As Cap'n Ron points out, the controller's handbook requires that s/he coordinate your flight with the tower when required.

Bob Gardner

 

[Ghery]

By Letter of Agreement between the radar facility and the tower, in most cases the top 500 feet of the tower's airspace is ceded to the radar facility. Ergo, if your altitude is in that 500-foot slice the radar facility will not hand you off because you are not leaving his/her airspace. As Cap'n Ron points out, the controller's handbook requires that s/he coordinate your flight with the tower when required.

Bob Gardner

That explains why I've had the TIW tower tell me to call SEA APP when I asked to transit their airspace near the top of it. Not a lot of room between the top of the TIW D space and the bottom of the SEA B space if you want to scoot over the top of TIW.

 

[TMetzinger]

It hasn't, and I think it's more a matter of FRG being a "non-radar" tower physically remote from the NY TRACON combined with the large volume of flight ops at FRG (including a lot of students for whom English isn't even a second language) than not wanting to talk to each other.

Thanks for the update, and I'll keep the IFR-only policy for that airport. Nice to know it's still a zoo. The controller did mention back then that they didn't have any radar display, but were hoping to get one.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The first time I ever flew into HLG (VFR w/ FF), Cleveland Center handed me off to PIT approach who then handled me all the way to the ground - on final they advised me to contact tower once off the runway. It was a weird situation - one I've not encountered since. Usually they want to hand you off to the tower once you have the airport in sight. I can only assume he had the tower guy on the phone - as no one complained or said anything to me after my arrival.

Other than how you managed to be on the ground while =transiting through= Class D , it's not at all unusual for functions to be combined and coordinated to such a degree that what happened to you happens.

What I didn't like about it was not being able to hear the other traffic calls on the tower freq. I did bring up the tower freq on my other radio - and I didn't hear any traffic -

Given the situation you described, that doesn't surprise me at all.

 

[Chairboy]

The closest to Inav8r's situation I've encountered is when making a recent negative-transponder VFR night approach (with turns for radar identification)
to KEUG where Cascade Approach was still talking to me when I was on half mile final. I inquired (w/ a quick position update) if they wanted me to call tower yet. Immediately: "Contact Eugene tower one one eight niner, so long". Eugene tower casually acknowledged me when I checked in, and I got my clearance to land a few hundred feet out from the runway. I know they were expecting me, but I think the extra workload of managing a primary radar contact instead of a transponder contact was why I had the late handoff. If I'm ever in that situation again, I'll make my delicate inquiry a little earlier, it just hadn't occurred to me at that time.

 

[mikea]

Thanks for the update, and I'll keep the IFR-only policy for that airport. Nice to know it's still a zoo. The controller did mention back then that they didn't have any radar display, but were hoping to get one.

To get a BRITE, just arrange for a famous radio guy to land under VFR, report his position wrong and have a midair with a student.

 

[poadeleted20]

The controller did mention back then that they didn't have any radar display, but were hoping to get one.

They've got a display; they're just not allowed to use it for traffic separation purposes. Consider it only an aid to their situational awareness, like a handheld or VFR GPS for us pilots.

 

[silver-eagle]

Usually flying north to NH, I get to transit Norwood and Bedford. I ask the approach controller if I'm cleared thru the class D at Norwood and Bedford. Their customary response id above 2,500 and not into the class B @ Boston.

Point is, if you don't know, ASK/TELL. The controller will tell you specifically what you can do. Or tell him what you're doing and do it.

 

[gprellwitz]

Yeah, going through Milwaukee's (KMKE) Class C airspace, I've had them ask me if I could climb and remain above Timmerman's (KMWC) Class D; presumably so they didn't need to coordinate anything.

 

[Everskyward]

ATC facilities have letters of agreement between facilities which define airspace boundaries and handoff procedures. Unfortunately these are not known by the pilot unless they contact the facility and ask. This is why procedures may be different at various approach control/tower combinations.

http://airportnoiselaw.org/faa-loa.html

a. AT [air traffic] managers shall negotiate a LOA when operational/procedural needs require the cooperation and concurrence of other persons/facilities/organizations. A LOA shall be prepared when it is necessary to:
f. Delegate responsibility for ATC service; e.g., approach control service, control boundary jurisdiction, and procedures for coordinating and controlling aircraft where two or more airports have conflicting traffic patterns or overlapping conflicting traffic patterns.

 

[mikea]

They've got a display; they're just not allowed to use it for traffic separation purposes. Consider it only an aid to their situational awareness, like a handheld or VFR GPS for us pilots.

DuPage (DPA) tower does use their BRITE display for traffic. They will rarely have a VFR IDENT so they can see which is the target they're talking to.

 

[SupraPilot]

Actually I had cancelled IFR earlier after dropping back below FL180 west of the NY airspace, and was getting flight following (FRG was my destination). As I recall, I was descending, called the field in sight (sort of prodding for a handoff) and was immediately dropped from flight following. I thought I was already IN FRG's "D" when I called the field in sight, so I was surprised at no handoff. And then when I called tower (after descending a little further, and was then definitely in his space), he was angry with me. We had a productive chat on the ground later.

I made it a policy after that to keep the IFR when going to FRG - just made it much easier. I'd often cancel once talking to tower if I had good wx.

i just would never cancel IFR in NY airspace..even on a perfect weather day .its just too busy, and too much going on..just do what your told and there will be no problems...thats my philosophy around there...your not gonna help anything by changing to VFR 5 miles from the airport..they still have to sequence you in..just my 2 cents...but i know nothing

Ant
sorry ddint notice you said you cancelled IFR before NY Class B..but still i wouldnt have cancelled

 

[poadeleted20]

i just would never cancel IFR in NY airspace..even on a perfect weather day .its just too busy, and too much going on..just do what your told and there will be no problems...thats my philosophy around there...your not gonna help anything by changing to VFR 5 miles from the airport..they still have to sequence you in..just my 2 cents...but i know nothing

Ant
sorry ddint notice you said you cancelled IFR before NY Class B..but still i wouldnt have cancelled

If you don't cancel IFR going into FRG (a nonradar 1-in/1-out tower) on a good VFR day (like 3000-5 or better), you could spend 30 minutes or more holding waiting for other IFR arrivals/departures. Cancel IFR and you zip in. Choose wisely.