Training on IFR cold weather decision making?

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Oliver
I was wondering if there are good trainings available, which cover IFR decision making during icing season?
Go / no-go? Climb or decent when ice starts to build?
 
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I recall a King video or two that was helpful and directly focused on the IFR/Icing decision making process. Here's a decent youtube video if you can manage the presentation:
 
I've searched as well but mostly just came up with a lot of FAA Safety videos that said, "don't fly in visible moisture when it is +4 to -20 C." Kind of interested in a good video also. Best I came up with is either get out of the visible moisture and get out of that temperature window. It can be anywhere.
 
Stratus layers less than 1000' thick I will climb through or descend through in the winter. Cumulus, or extended times in the clouds not so much.
 
There is a lot to learn about flying non-FIKI in or around icing conditions, but the key to everything (which is also true in general flying) is keeping your outs open.
When you feel you don't have enough good outs left, land.
 
Stay out of the ice in non FIKI planes

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Flying single engine Cessnas in Colorado during the winter also has helped with my decision making. Basically, if it is winter and IFR, I don't fly.
I think I've seen icing conditions around here (Colorado) nearly every month of the year. Not saying it's always icy but it's always something to think about unless it's June, July, or August.
 
You start trying to out guess ice, you're gonna get ice. If there was an airmet for icing, I didn't go. I got ice doing just that, no airmet and it was just a bit above freezing. Glad I had warm VFR under me to get out of it. No more of that for me.
 
Some of the training workshops on @scottd's www.AvWxWorkshops.com might help.

A sample workshop about the Skew-T diagram:


I have only started using Skew-Ts for icing prediction over the last few years, but now swear by them. I would not launch non-FIKI in icing or near-icing conditions without a careful and thorough review of the relevant Skew-Ts.
 
I think I've seen icing conditions around here (Colorado) nearly every month of the year. Not saying it's always icy but it's always something to think about unless it's June, July, or August.
Agreed. I'm just saying winter and visible moisture are an absolute no-go, everything else takes some real interpretation. Since most MEAs in my area are >13,000', IFR is rarely an option for me anyway until I fly an hour from home.
 
Stratus layers less than 1000' thick I will climb through or descend through in the winter. Cumulus, or extended times in the clouds not so much.

I might consider going through a layer a little thicker than that, but I generally have learned to draw the line at about the same point. At least in airplanes with no deice equipment.

As a side note to the OP, I assume you're flying a mooney based on your avatar. They don't like ice, at least based on the limited amount of time I've spent in one in those conditions.
 
For me with a non-FIKI aircraft it's basically just don't go into the clouds if it's below freezing in there. Keeps it simple. I've seen too many iced up GA aircraft fall out of the sky to have even the slightest interest in playing around with ice.
 
I might consider going through a layer a little thicker than that, but I generally have learned to draw the line at about the same point. At least in airplanes with no deice equipment.

As a side note to the OP, I assume you're flying a mooney based on your avatar. They don't like ice, at least based on the limited amount of time I've spent in one in those conditions.

How do you know how thick the cloud layer is?

What's your backup if it's thicker, and the ice is heavier then you thought?
 
How do you know how thick the cloud layer is?

What's your backup if it's thicker, and the ice is heavier then you thought?

Therein lies the problem. All you can really go by are forecasts and pilot reports for where the tops are at. If it looks at all negative, I'll stay VFR or just not go.
 
Therein lies the problem. All you can really go by are forecasts and pilot reports for where the tops are at. If it looks at all negative, I'll stay VFR or just not go.

Skew-T, although (like anything else) not perfect, is actually quite accurate for these types of predictions. As I noted above, I would not venture non-FIKI into or near icing conditions without a detailed knowledge of the latest Skew-T projections for my route and time window. Of course, even that is not enough, you still need to keep some outs in case the models are wrong.
 
How do you know how thick the cloud layer is?

What's your backup if it's thicker, and the ice is heavier then you thought?

Pireps and that is about it. If there is anything suggesting clouds that are below freezing at or below your MEA, it's worth considering not flying.

If you accidentally end up in it, do what you can to get out, and if safe return back to your home airport and drive.
 
Flying single engine Cessnas in Colorado during the winter also has helped with my decision making. Basically, if it is winter and IFR, I don't fly.

Often true, but there's scenarios where it's not. Typically they involve heavy winds, and/or snow falling, which present their own difficulties... But it's not *always* icing that keeps us on the ground... Heh.
 
Skew-T, although (like anything else) not perfect, is actually quite accurate for these types of predictions. As I noted above, I would not venture non-FIKI into or near icing conditions without a detailed knowledge of the latest Skew-T projections for my route and time window. Of course, even that is not enough, you still need to keep some outs in case the models are wrong.

Why not just stay out of visible moisture (clouds, RA, etc) when it's below 0C?
 
Why not just stay out of visible moisture (clouds, RA, etc) when it's below 0C?

That's easier said than done. If you have to go non-FIKI IFR from point A to point B during the winter season in many parts of the country, and there are cloud layers (which is quite common), you need to know where those layers are, their temperature and moisture content. In some cases the flight can be done easily and safely, in others not so much. Before Skew-T you had very little information. Now it's vastly easier to predict the layers (if any) and stay out of trouble, if you know what you are doing.

Edit: Couple of more points. First, the government icing tool is also extremely useful for icing avoidance planning. Second, despite your best efforts, you'll still have to scrub or postpone flights when non-FIKI. It's just that you want to maximize the utility of your aircraft while remaining safe.
 
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Often true, but there's scenarios where it's not. Typically they involve heavy winds, and/or snow falling, which present their own difficulties... But it's not *always* icing that keeps us on the ground... Heh.
Very true. You and I need to sit down and share stories (and beer) before I leave the state for the mini-Alaska.
 
That's easier said than done. If you have to go non-FIKI IFR from point A to point B during the winter season in many parts of the country...

One of the hardest parts of flying is knowing when to say no.


I've launched IFR into weather where it shouldn't have been very icy and seen enough ice blow off my wing boots that I changed my mind about my tolerances for non FIKI in visible moisture near 0C, if it's even going to be remotely close, I default it to VFR, if it can't be done VFR, the plane stays in the hangar.
 
One of the hardest parts of flying is knowing when to say no.


I've launched IFR into weather where it shouldn't have been very icy and seen enough ice blow off my wing boots that I changed my mind about my tolerances for non FIKI in visible moisture near 0C, if it's even going to be remotely close, I default it to VFR, if it can't be done VFR, the plane stays in the hangar.

I agree in principle, although each of us has his/her own criteria. The bottom line is to carefully read and play the cards you are dealt, and to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.
 
Stratus layers less than 1000' thick I will climb through or descend through in the winter. Cumulus, or extended times in the clouds not so much.

That's exactly what I heard from other Michigan pilots, some of whom flew IFR during winter season for decades. I also understand that when it is cold enough, moisture would turn into ice crystals and not stick anymore. Another Michigan pilot recently told me, that he would enter clouds during winter time, but not the precipitation is forecast, as this is an indicator for how water content in the cloud.


[...] A sample workshop about the Skew-T diagram: [...]

The Skew-T diagram is indeed a very useful tool to estimate the thickness of a cloud layer, among other things. I use it regularly.


[...] What's your backup if it's thicker, and the ice is heavier then you thought?

Well, I guess this is exactly one of my questions. The videos I have seen so far, in my opinion, never deal with the decision making process in preparation for the flight, but either scare pilots away from entering clouds in general during wintertime or only discuss what to do once the ice started to build up.

Looking at the icing forecast, for example, it states a icing severity from none to heavy, as well as a probability.

Example:
1.) 6°C on the ground, overcast at 6,000 ft, tops at 10,000 ft.. Forecast predicts light ice with a probability between 25% and 50% . Would you climb through it and why?

2.) -11°C on the ground, overcast at 1,000 ft, tops at 2,0000 ft.. Forecast predicts no ice. Go / no go?

3.) -1°C on the ground, overcast at 1,000 ft, tops at 8,0000 ft.. Forecast predicts moderate ice, between 25% and 50% probability. Go / no go?

Example 3 would be a clear no go for me, as I would have no way out and as the layer is pretty thick.
In example number 2 I would tend to go, as at these temperatures water has most likely turned into ice crystals, because the layer is thin and because the forecast suggest no ice.
What however about example number 1? How light is 'light' ice? What does the probability mean for me and would 6°C on the ground be considered a sufficient 'out'?

Obviously, the reality is a lot more complex than my three simple examples.
I am therefore really interested in learning of how to make educated winter flying decisions.
 
Example:
1.) 6°C on the ground, overcast at 6,000 ft, tops at 10,000 ft.. Forecast predicts light ice with a probability between 25% and 50% . Would you climb through it and why?

2.) -11°C on the ground, overcast at 1,000 ft, tops at 2,0000 ft.. Forecast predicts no ice. Go / no go?

3.) -1°C on the ground, overcast at 1,000 ft, tops at 8,0000 ft.. Forecast predicts moderate ice, between 25% and 50% probability. Go / no go?

Assumptions I'm going to make because you didn't provide the information needed:

- Your "forecast" is the icing model chart. (If not, what forecast product are you specifically referring to that gives icing information? Airmets don't give percentages like you have.)

- The system causing all of the above is a widespread stratus system under high pressure with crappy vis and low ceilings, since you don't say. But you need to know what's causing the forecast. A fast moving cold front which is sweeping through with high winds and mixes of icing and precip is a totally different animal than a hundred mile wide area of constant precip and low ceilings. They're not caused by the same things. You need to know what kinds of weather boundaries you're crossing all along the route.

- Without a skew-t, no inferences can be made about inversion layers either. You need that information. All along the route.

- PIREPs are not mentioned. You need that information. All along the route.

But I'll play. In theory anyway...

1) Since my home airport is at 5883, that one is no-go. I'm not a fan of departing nearly zero-zero with no ability to return in a single. Heh. Grin.

If you meant AGL, 6000' would put the bases at 12,000 for me, so I think I can work with that for visibility but working backward that gives a dewpoint of -10, and I doubt you're going to see a stratus layer causing much precip at 12,000 with air that dry. That's 30% RH. But you could probably fly BELOW it if you were definitely flying toward warmer weather. Colder, you'd be risking freezing precip. Inversions aloft, same problem. You need to look along the route of flight and know where precip is and where it's likely to move to and if there's a way out of it that keeps you in above freezing temps. In this assumption laden version. LOL. Stay in warm air.

As you can see though, you forgot an important detail: What altitude is the airport? ;)

2) -11C at the surface and no inversions aloft? That stuff is all frroooooooozen. Go. Doesn't matter if you're talking AGL or MSL. It's frozen. Watch out if it's getting warmer where you're going. And you still need to look for inversions or other mixing along the way. Take a good coat, preflight is going to suck. Plan a while to pre-heat, too. Haha.

3) 1000 MSL is about 5000 below the surface here so I guess we'll ignore that possibility. Grin.

-1C at surface and clouds at 1000 AGL, says that's a temp/dewpoint spread of 1 degree (-2) and 93% RH. No inversion aloft, it should all be frozen but that's flirting with other problems. How widespread is that tight temp dewpoint spread and are we flying toward warmer or colder temps? 1000 AGL gives us the ability to return to the departure airport at least, but that could close up real quick with a tight spread like that. This one is likely a no-go for me but not for icing reasons necessarily.

I think you need to look at the relationship between cloud height and RH a bit more and also feed more data into these scenarios. Winter weather flying is a game that requires looking over a massive amount of data but also seeing the big picture of what's creating the weather system.

Any one of those scenarios could be blasted straight to no-go by winds or PIREPs saying things aren't as forecast or even the "wrong" direction temperature swing as you cross weather systems enroute. They're not nearly enough information to make a decision on.

I've given some examples of what types of thoughts you might look at without the proper additional info, though. Dewpoint spreads, temp at cloud base, temps aloft and whether there's an inversion, what kind of weather system are you coming from and going to, what are your "outs" and which direction are they, what's the weather forecast at the "outs" and is it getting better or worse, how widespread are the weather patterns and how stable, do the PIREPs match the forecast...
 
Nate, thank you for playing along. Very interesting thoughts / considerations. This is exactly, what I would like to learn more about. I believe to be pretty proficient in finding all kinds of weather related information, including Skew-T diagrams. Having data available, interpreting it and making a call based on it, are however very different things and what I am struggling with... ;)

Yes, I am referring to the icing model chart: http://aviationweather.gov/icing/fip

The 3 scenarios I described, where just generalized examples of typical situation I remembered from last winter, altitudes are AGL. Because my wife and I a afraid of icing, we haven't entered clouds one single time yet, when the temperatures were below freezing.
 
Nate, thank you for playing along. Very interesting thoughts / considerations. This is exactly, what I would like to learn more about. I believe to be pretty proficient in finding all kinds of weather related information, including Skew-T diagrams. Having data available, interpreting it and making a call based on it, are however very different things and what I am struggling with... ;)

Yes, I am referring to the icing model chart: http://aviationweather.gov/icing/fip

The 3 scenarios I described, where just generalized examples of typical situation I remembered from last winter, altitudes are AGL. Because my wife and I a afraid of icing, we haven't entered clouds one single time yet, when the temperatures were below freezing.

Yup. I knew they were general. The thing I learned during my Instrument training is that the weather decisions are harder than non-Instrument and might change by the minute both pre- and post-launch.

One way to feel better about it would be to choose to go up on some winter days and go somewhere with a CFII willing to fly in actual. You may find your analysis is good, and the CFII isn't too concerned about anything, or they might see something you didn't and point it out.

There's even a DPE around here who'll do it as a CFII role for newer Instrument rated folks (if he's available) because he knows we rarely have flyable IFR around here but he wants folks to gain confidence and experience in the system. He offers this to anyone who takes their Instrument ride with him as a courtesy.

He's really really busy but a weekday with some cruddy weather, you might find him available and he'll fly with ya in your airplane. It isn't a freebie of course, but it's nice to know someone else on board with a lot of experience is looking over things with you, if you're not totally comfortable with weather.
 
Nate, thank you for playing along. Very interesting thoughts / considerations. This is exactly, what I would like to learn more about. I believe to be pretty proficient in finding all kinds of weather related information, including Skew-T diagrams. Having data available, interpreting it and making a call based on it, are however very different things and what I am struggling with... ;)

Yes, I am referring to the icing model chart: http://aviationweather.gov/icing/fip

The 3 scenarios I described, where just generalized examples of typical situation I remembered from last winter, altitudes are AGL. Because my wife and I a afraid of icing, we haven't entered clouds one single time yet, when the temperatures were below freezing.

I don't have a ton of experience in the clouds in winter, but I've been trying to learn the same thing(s) I think you are. So far, here's what I've come up with:

1. Forecast conditions and actual conditions aren't always the same. The forecast is a guess. Sometimes it seems like it was an educated guess and other times you wonder if there's really just a monkey throwing darts at a board and that's how the forecast is determined.

2. ALWAYS have outs. The more, the better. I don't fly professionally, so I never have a flight I HAVE to take. In your first example, I would be willing to go, because I live in a flat area of the country with a pretty low elevation. 6000' means I can get back down and stay above the MVA if there's trouble. If I start picking up ice immediately upon entering the clouds in a climb, I'm headed back down (and will advise ATC of my decision). If no ice, I'd continue on. If I start picking some up on the descent back through, I'll expedite that descent and spend as little time as possible in those conditions.

3. The same conditions (at least as far as the info we have available) on different days may provide different results. In the clouds below 0C one day might be fine; the next day you might pick up ice.

4. I'm willing to accept ZERO ice. I don't have enough experience to say "Eh, we're picking up a little, but nothing to worry about." If I see ice forming, I'm taking one of the outs referenced in #2 above. If I don't have any outs, I've messed up in my previous decision making (knock on wood, that hasn't happened yet... mostly because if I don't have at least 2 outs in mind already, I'm coming up with options... and if I can't come up with any, I'm landing ASAP.)

I'm sure there are MANY more things I'll learn as I gain more experience, but so far these seem to be serving me well (and have been discussed with a few different CFIIs).

But I'm following this thread closely hoping to pick up more info!
 
Forecast is just a guess.

I'm more concerned with pireps and what's outside the window, maybe trending a few metars.

Personally I don't really look at airmets, just sigmets... Speaking of which it would be REALLY cool if I could select airmets or sigmets individually on foreflight
 
The biggest issue I see is that pilots just don't understand how to properly use the forecasts within their inherent limitations. The forecaster is blamed for a bad forecast, when all along it was the pilot that didn't really understand the forecast. For example, they cancel a flight due to the presence of AIRMET Zulu over their departure airport and it turned out to be just very scattered clouds at the time of their proposed departure. Is this a bad forecast? Likely not. AIRMET Zulu is a forecast for non-convective, widespread, moderate ice over a six hour period. The difference in the forecast versus actual is because the area of weather moved through their departure airport and because of the time-smeared nature of the forecast that area when from overcast to scattered in that six hour window.

Or the other case is that they climb or descend through a cloud deck and pick up some light to occasional moderate ice where an AIRMET doesn't exist and say, "the forecasters blew it." When, in fact, the area of ice didn't meet AIRMET criteria (it was mostly light, not widespread, convective, etc.)

I admit that my statement wasn't really aimed at aviation forecasts as much as the times the local weather forecasters tell us SNOWMAGEDDON is coming, so stock up on non perishable food items, because we don't know when it will end. And then we get a dusting of snow. I'm sure there's a good reason their forecasts were so far off, but to someone less versed in meteorology, it seems like the monkey just didn't throw the dart very well.
 
I admit that my statement wasn't really aimed at aviation forecasts as much as the times the local weather forecasters tell us SNOWMAGEDDON is coming, so stock up on non perishable food items, because we don't know when it will end. And then we get a dusting of snow. I'm sure there's a good reason their forecasts were so far off, but to someone less versed in meteorology, it seems like the monkey just didn't throw the dart very well.
This. NY weathermen are the worst. Every time there is snow on the radar. OMGGGGGGGG BLIZrd of the century dfjdieodkfncnfjrir!!!!!! Don't leave your home!?!?!(&;939/93837:
 
Forecast is just a guess.

I'm more concerned with pireps and what's outside the window, maybe trending a few metars.

Personally I don't really look at airmets, just sigmets... Speaking of which it would be REALLY cool if I could select airmets or sigmets individually on foreflight

You can. In Imagery. Heh.

MyRadar App can also do it. I think for like a $3 fee if it's not in the base version. I forget. Bought it years ago.

I admit that my statement wasn't really aimed at aviation forecasts as much as the times the local weather forecasters tell us SNOWMAGEDDON is coming, so stock up on non perishable food items, because we don't know when it will end. And then we get a dusting of snow. I'm sure there's a good reason their forecasts were so far off, but to someone less versed in meteorology, it seems like the monkey just didn't throw the dart very well.

This. NY weathermen are the worst. Every time there is snow on the radar. OMGGGGGGGG BLIZrd of the century dfjdieodkfncnfjrir!!!!!! Don't leave your home!?!?!(&;939/93837:

TV weather is paid for drama, not accuracy.

I don't pay any attention to the TV weather people for flight planning at all unless they get out of the way of the green screen long enough to show the frontal map, and even then, I can pull that up on my phone.

Fancy graphics of digital snow falling on cityscapes are generally useless.

Plus many TV weather people aren't even meteorologists. One local here is an Accountant by education. She only added meteorologist credentials after being hired as the "weather babe".

She also had higher ratings than the pilot-rated guy who's contact came up for renewal in 2009.

Guess who got canned and had to hop networks?

Guess who's forecasts are usually wrong still to this day?

I might be biased though. The pilot was also my meteorology professor once long ago. And crashed his RC quad copter into the desk I was studying IFR stuff with a CFI on at a local FBO. ;)

His resume says he worked as a part time )I assume as a fill in) co-pilot for @Everskyward 's employer once too.

He's one of only a couple of TV weather talking heads I'll even bother listening to.
 
It would be nice though to be able to turn them on independently, like on skyvector

Even though they are different colors, it would be even clearer if one could choose one or the other or both
 
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