training/logging question...

ScottK

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ScottK
I saw a video on youtube where an instrument lesson wound up in actual and the instructor had to file for a pop up clearance to get home. In that situation, would the student lose the PIC time while on the flight plan? I'm assuming that as long as the student is still flying the plane, he should be able to log it.
 
The plane didn't magically sprout floats or turn into a helicopter when he entered the clouds did it? He is still rated in the ASEL before and after he entered the clouds. Because it is a instrument lesson video I am assuming the student has a PPL and the instructor is a CFII. The student could still log PIC time whether in simulated or actual conditions if he is rated in the aircraft. Did it quite a bit doing my instrument rating.

FAR 61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate
 
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As long as the student is rated in the airplane he is flying, he can log the time as PIC as Sole Manipulator. Conditions of flight don't affect that. Whether or not on a flight plan does not affect that.

And someone will be along shortly to expand on that.
 
Yep. I have a few hours of actual for my IR. Its much different, and better I think, to be actual than wear some foggles. Breaking out at 300-400 and 1 on an ILS is pretty cool. Unless they moved the runway....:D
 
I swear there's a flow chart for that around here somewhere, if only I could find it...
 
I saw a video on youtube where an instrument lesson wound up in actual and the instructor had to file for a pop up clearance to get home. In that situation, would the student lose the PIC time while on the flight plan? I'm assuming that as long as the student is still flying the plane, he should be able to log it.

When I was IFR training with Ron Levy, we had a few days where the bulk of the lesson was in IMC, and around the active Corpus Christi airspace to boot.

We filed IFR and departed as normal. During the flight, Ron handled comms with ATC making sure they were up to speed with his training desires and gaining updated clearances.

At the end of the hop, I got credit for the PIC time, some actual, some sim'd IFR. All in all, a good training day.
 
You may log it as actual. I had about 5 hours of actual when I trained for my IR.
 
I got 0.1 actual, logged as PIC, and I wasn't even an instrument student.

I had an instructor in the airplane and we popped through the marine layer on an IFR flight plan, canceled IFR, and did some VFR maneuvers.
 
Yeah, but people get wrapped around the axle as to what "rated" really means.

That's because people don't know how to read. Well, they know how to read, they just try to read more into things, and add stuff that isn't there.
 
As long as the student is rated in the airplane he is flying, he can log the time as PIC as Sole Manipulator. Conditions of flight don't affect that. Whether or not on a flight plan does not affect that.

And someone will be along shortly to expand on that.

Could someone tell me how this view is consistent with the following?

61.3(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;
 
Could someone tell me how this view is consistent with the following?

61.3(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

Red marks the spot. :)
(hint: log != act)
 
That's because people don't know how to read. Well, they know how to read, they just try to read more into things, and add stuff that isn't there.


Could someone tell me how this view is consistent with the following?

61.3(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;


I rest my case.
 
Could someone tell me how this view is consistent with the following?

61.3(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;
Because not only do the regulations themselves make a distinction between "logging" flight time and "acting" as a required crewmember but almost 35 years ago, the FAA Chief Counsel made it clear
==============================
Section 61.51 is a flight-time logging regulation, under which PIC time may be logged by one who is not actually the pilot in command (i.e., not "ultimately" responsible for the aircraft) during that time. This is consistent with the purpose of Section 61.51, which as stated in 61.51(a) is to record aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of Section 61.
==============================

The same 35 year old discussion then lists seven specific examples, including
==============================
3. The purpose of the flight is instrument instruction actual IFR conditions.
==============================

and says about all of them
==============================
In each situation, the CFI may log PIC time for all flight time during which she or he acts as flight instructor. The pilot receiving instruction may also log PIC time in each of these situations, as the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which she or he is rated.
==============================

Does that help?
 
Because not only do the regulations themselves make a distinction between "logging" flight time and "acting" as a required crewmember but almost 35 years ago, the FAA Chief Counsel made it clear
==============================
Section 61.51 is a flight-time logging regulation, under which PIC time may be logged by one who is not actually the pilot in command (i.e., not "ultimately" responsible for the aircraft) during that time. This is consistent with the purpose of Section 61.51, which as stated in 61.51(a) is to record aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of Section 61.
==============================

The same 35 year old discussion then lists seven specific examples, including
==============================
3. The purpose of the flight is instrument instruction actual IFR conditions.
==============================

and says about all of them
==============================
In each situation, the CFI may log PIC time for all flight time during which she or he acts as flight instructor. The pilot receiving instruction may also log PIC time in each of these situations, as the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which she or he is rated.
==============================

Does that help?

Yes. Good and clear explanation. I thought it had to be something like that. Thanks!
 
Thanks gentleman!

Is there a link to the Chief Counsel's decisions? Is it at FAA.gov?
 
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