Training in DTLS vs. J-3 Cub

I have decided to start my training in the Cub. I got an email for the owner of the school last night and he said drop on by anytime. I was able to leave work early and head out to the school. The owner was just a great guy to talk to. As soon as I walked in the door, he stopped what he was doing to talk to me and show me around. He answered all my questions and talked about things I didn't even think of. He really made me feel welcome. They have do online scheduling to book their training. I hadn't even left his office yet when one of his staff had already set up my account and emailed me my password and log-in. Just his attitude and his staff made the decision for me.
 
Henning said:
Exactly, and we don't do that anymore either unless we're dealing with museum pieces. There are things we have learned through experience that we just don't do anymore.
Click to expand...
I doubt most Cubs are covered with nitrate dope anymore, and tube and fabric is a perfectly viable airplane structure if a hangar is available.

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
I doubt most Cubs are covered with nitrate dope anymore, and tube and fabric is a perfectly viable airplane structure if a hangar is available.

Ryan
Click to expand...


I was referring to fuel in the lap, not rag and tube, and you're right, like I said, we don't use dope anymore. Piper learned better and quit doing it with more refined versions. Heck, a jury was convinced it was such a bad design they put Piper out of business! Before you say anything, I grant that was completely bogus, but it is the truth.

The J-3 was never meant to still be flying, and if it wasn't the Model T of aviation and modern aviation so expensive, it wouldn't be. Nostalgia, getting back to the things people back then couldn't wait to get out of. They were cheap and ubiquitous back then, that's why they were trainers, not because they had some magical qualities. Saying "Everyone should learn to fly in a Cub" is like saying "Everyone should learn to drive in a Pinto." Why?
 
Henning said:
I was referring to fuel in the lap, not rag and tube, and you're right, like I said, we don't use dope anymore. Piper learned better and quit doing it with more refined versions. Heck, a jury was convinced it was such a bad design they put Piper out of business! Before you say anything, I grant that was completely bogus, but it is the truth.

The J-3 was never meant to still be flying, and if it wasn't the Model T of aviation and modern aviation so expensive, it wouldn't be. Nostalgia, getting back to the things people back then couldn't wait to get out of. They were cheap and ubiquitous back then, that's why they were trainers, not because they had some magical qualities. Saying "Everyone should learn to fly in a Cub" is like saying "Everyone should learn to drive in a Pinto." Why?
Click to expand...
I'm with you on that. I think it does depend on the student, however. If I had my druthers, all of my students would get at least two flights in the Cub for various reasons, but I don't mind if they decide they don't like it. I've had more than one person complain about the ergonomics, too. One of my students could tell you that I just talked him into flying the Cessna 172 instead, however, because I think that will get him to his mission faster, and frankly, because it means he has to meet the 61.87 requirements for solo in TWO airplanes instead of one. I'd just as soon get the student to the checkride, and THEN do the tailwheel checkout, if it would be best for their mission. For some of the retired weekend LSA guys, I'd like to force 'em to learn in the Cub, because I want their stick and rudder skills to be a bit better, especially if they are looking for the minimum 20 hours to finish and then go buy a cheap taildragger next. The Cub is perfect for that mission, but then again, another cheaper taildragger would work fine, too, as Cubs are waaaaay overpriced for their performance. Suffice it to say I'm thinking seriously about an Aeronca Chief - same engine, etc... but 20mph faster.

Ryan
 
JB1842 said:
I have decided to start my training in the Cub. I got an email for the owner of the school last night and he said drop on by anytime. I was able to leave work early and head out to the school. The owner was just a great guy to talk to. As soon as I walked in the door, he stopped what he was doing to talk to me and show me around. He answered all my questions and talked about things I didn't even think of. He really made me feel welcome. They have do online scheduling to book their training. I hadn't even left his office yet when one of his staff had already set up my account and emailed me my password and log-in. Just his attitude and his staff made the decision for me.
Click to expand...


Sounds great! Having an instructor that you feel comfortable talking to and communicating with is a really great thing. My first instructor from 20 years ago and for the first five hours after I took up flying again, is a cantankerous (sp?) old fart! My current instructor is a guy like you described. It makes me feel very much at ease in asking him questions and obeying his instructions. This helps me alot.

Additionally, it's nice to be dealing with someone who makes it more enjoyable. Attitude is a big deal in most any endeavor. If he has a good attitude, it's likely that he's a good and certainly an adequate instructor.

I'm excited for you. Enjoy yourself and start reading and studying right away. Go for your medical early and get some study material and knock out your written early.

You solo in that Cub and no matter what you do thereafter, you're a tailwheel pilot.

Keep us posted.

Doc
 
Thanks Doc. I'm on the last section of the gleim online course. Not a bad course for the money, but it is a little dry. I have a could of other books I plan on picking up from the ASA booth at Oshkosh next week.
 
Josh,

I just happened to think of something. Is this instructor a regular CFI or an LSA CFI? If you think that you might want to go beyond LSA some day, you need to make sure he's a regular CFI so that your training hours will count toward your Private license.

Doc
 
All the intructors are regular CFI's. The school has 3 Cubs and a Cherokee for training. They get more sport students there, but they do have students going for their PPL (usually after they get the sport).
 
One other thing to remember when training in a Cub, get spin training before solo. In the days of the Cub, it was required. The reason it isn't required anymore is because modern designs are pretty much self resolving and difficult to spin. That does not apply to a Cub. If you put spin inputs into a Cub you'll be spinning right a ray... and you need to get it out.
 
The instructor already told me spin training is a requirement in his program and it is done before I solo. He also says that a couple of times he will have another instructor give me lessons. He says he likes to do this so I get comfortable with someone else in the plane so that when I go up with my examiner I won't be uncomfortable with someone new flying with me, and it allows me to get another's input if they see something that could help me.
 
JB1842 said:
The instructor already told me spin training is a requirement in his program and it is done before I solo. He also says that a couple of times he will have another instructor give me lessons. He says he likes to do this so I get comfortable with someone else in the plane so that when I go up with my examiner I won't be uncomfortable with someone new flying with me, and it allows me to get another's input if they see something that could help me.
Click to expand...

Dude!
 
Good for you. I have never met anyone that was sorry that they had tailwheel time in their logbook, or flew a Cub.

A friendly staff, enjoyable plane - it sounds like you have a fun training period in front of you. Enjoy it! Think of flying that Cub with the door open over the changing leaves this fall in WI. Keep us aprised.

Tim

JB1842 said:
I have decided to start my training in the Cub. I got an email for the owner of the school last night and he said drop on by anytime. I was able to leave work early and head out to the school. The owner was just a great guy to talk to. As soon as I walked in the door, he stopped what he was doing to talk to me and show me around. He answered all my questions and talked about things I didn't even think of. He really made me feel welcome. They have do online scheduling to book their training. I hadn't even left his office yet when one of his staff had already set up my account and emailed me my password and log-in. Just his attitude and his staff made the decision for me.
Click to expand...
 
Henning said:
One other thing to remember when training in a Cub, get spin training before solo. In the days of the Cub, it was required. The reason it isn't required anymore is because modern designs are pretty much self resolving and difficult to spin. That does not apply to a Cub. If you put spin inputs into a Cub you'll be spinning right a ray... and you need to get it out.
Click to expand...
What you say here is technically true, but here's how that plays out in the real world.

The bolded part, "modern airplanes are difficult to spin", creates a huge mis-understanding about the whole spin thing.

The exact same control inputs (or lack thereof) that will put a Cub (or other similar 'old' airplane) into a spin will put a Cessna 152 (or other similar 'modern' airplane into an incipient spin.

Allowing a significant yaw during stall will yaw/roll either airplane over.

The Cub will continue to develop into a full spin (which is staying stalled, spinning at stall speed -speed not increasing, until forward stick), while the 152 will develop a spiraling dive, which looks & feels like a spin to the uninitiated.

The spiraling dive will rapidly build speed until power is reduced and back elevator is applied.

The Cub's vertical descent will be much slower, giving the uninitiated more time to scream and jerk around on the controls until it straightens out.

The 152's vertical descent is much more rapid, giving the uninitiated less time to react, and if reaction is delayed much, the airspeed will rip off the wings, or the RPM will blow out the engine, whichever comes first before impact.

To the uninitiated, who may freeze and panic, a 'modern' airplane is just as dangerous as the older ones as far as stall spin control. Rolling upside down for the very first time is an amazing experience and should be experienced with a spin instructor.

The reason they stopped requiring spin training was political.
Like the reason they stopped requiring multi-engine solo time, or the commercial long x/c to be solo, and so on.
These are not training considerations, they are insurance money driven.

The reason there were so many stall/spin accidents back then is because we all had to go out and buzz our girlfriend(s)'s house.
and Mom and Dad.
and that snotty kid that thinks he's so great.

Yeeayah, lookit me, now.
WHAM!
 
Yes, when I was in my phase I training 20 years ago, my instructor required spins. We did them in his Champ. It did not throw you around in the plane when it spun.

Then later after a lapse in training the instructor had me do a stall from a climbing turn and it snapped into a spin, or maybe what nosehair was calling a spiraling dive. Whatever you call it, it was violent and quick. I popped it out in 270 degrees of rotation and the instructor said that he had not touched anything.

Call it a spin or a spiraling dive or whatever, but whatever it was, I wanted out of it ASAP. The good news is that I got it out on my own by instinct.

I am hoping that when it comes to my spin training that will be necessary before my CFI rating that it will be a better experience.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yes, when I was in my phase I training 20 years ago, my instructor required spins. We did them in his Champ. It did not throw you around in the plane when it spun.

Then later after a lapse in training the instructor had me do a stall from a climbing turn and it snapped into a spin, or maybe what nosehair was calling a spiraling dive. Whatever you call it, it was violent and quick. I popped it out in 270 degrees of rotation and the instructor said that he had not touched anything.

Call it a spin or a spiraling dive or whatever, but whatever it was, I wanted out of it ASAP. The good news is that I got it out on my own by instinct.

I am hoping that when it comes to my spin training that will be necessary before my CFI rating that it will be a better experience.

Doc
Click to expand...

Spins and what hapens when you add power, push before you stop the rotation, and other fun stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/user/T123TK#p/a/u/2/UiEMVFV3BWY

(I've posted this link before)
 
I'm excited. I can't wait for the spin training. My wife is a little apprehesive about me training. I told her to come with me one day and I would have them give her a discovery flight. Maybe I can have the instructor surprise her with a spin or some stalls. Yes, I am evil like that.
 
JB1842 said:
I'm excited. I can't wait for the spin training. My wife is a little apprehesive about me training. I told her to come with me one day and I would have them give her a discovery flight. Maybe I can have the instructor surprise her with a spin or some stalls. Yes, I am evil like that.
Click to expand...


I'm sure you know your wife well enough, but I think a "surprise spin" is no way to endear someone to little airplane flying.
 
She probably wouldn't like, but I like to keep our marriage intersting. I will take it easy on her to start. But I promise some day I will have her experience spins and stalls.
 
dmccormack said:
I'm sure you know your wife well enough, but I think a "surprise spin" is no way to endear someone to little airplane flying.
Click to expand...

I got a surprise spin my first flight, at least the entry.:D But I did it to myself.
 
I showed her some spins and stalls on youtube and tried to tell her it's like riding a roller coaster, but you are in control. Not sure it worked. She still closes her eyes on some rides.
 
JB1842 said:
But I promise some day I will have her experience spins and stalls.
Click to expand...

Technically you yourself wont be able to show her spins. I believe that falls under the aerobatic category... Well I suppose if the both of you bring parachutes it is then legal. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Technically you yourself wont be able to show her spins. I believe that falls under the aerobatic category... Well I suppose if the both of you bring parachutes it is then legal. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...

AC 61-67C 9/25/00 301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.

Technically, even CFI is not supposed to "show" or teach anyone spins without all occupants wearing chutes unless this training is for the purposes of obtaining the CFI or ATP.

Why try to get your spouse into flying? Don't you need some time to yourself? :)
 
Thanks Roscoe, that was the reg I was looking for.
 
RoscoeT said:
AC 61-67C 9/25/00 301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167.

Technically, even CFI is not supposed to "show" or teach anyone spins without all occupants wearing chutes unless this training is for the purposes of obtaining the CFI or ATP.
Click to expand...
The key there is "intentional maneuver"... :D If a student is a bit clumsy with their feet, it can happen accidentally - for real. That happened to me with a student in an LSA and I can assure you it was not intentional.

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
The key there is "intentional maneuver"... :D If a student is a bit clumsy with their feet, it can happen accidentally - for real. That happened to me with a student in an LSA and I can assure you it was not intentional.

Ryan
Click to expand...

Very true...and the regs don't mention anything about whether "intentional" applies to the student or the instructor. The instructor could intentionally get a student to produce a spin that the student did not intend. :wink2:
 
Trust me, I don't ever plan on violating the regs. I would never "intentionally" upset my wife. That's why I would ask the instructor to do it for me.
 
JB1842 said:
That's why I would ask the instructor to do it for me.
Click to expand...

So you're going to ask your instructor to "accidentally" show you a spin? If that's the game you want to play, you might as well "accidentally" spin the plane with your wife in it. If you're worried about regs, read the one referenced above.
 
I wouldn't "accidently" have anyone do it to her. I guess humor is lost on the internet. But I think it would be good for her to go up a few times with an instructor at the school so she feels more comfortable in a small plane when the time comes when she flies wth me. And she will also get the experience that if a stall/spin were to occur, she would know that we aren't about to crash and die, and that you can take a few steps and correct them.
 
JB1842 said:
I wouldn't "accidently" have anyone do it to her. I guess humor is lost on the internet. But I think it would be good for her to go up a few times with an instructor at the school so she feels more comfortable in a small plane when the time comes when she flies wth me. And she will also get the experience that if a stall/spin were to occur, she would know that we aren't about to crash and die, and that you can take a few steps and correct them.
Click to expand...


Josh,

I'm glad to hear that the part about the instructor spinning with your wife was not serious. As you say, things written on the internet, often do not come across correctly.

Sending your wife up for an intro flight is a great idea.
Doc
 
RoscoeT said:
Technically, even CFI is not supposed to "show" or teach anyone spins without all occupants wearing chutes unless this training is for the purposes of obtaining the CFI or ATP.
Click to expand...
Can't provide the legal interpretation reference, but spin training is allowed for any certificate or rating without parachutes.

As an example, PP special emphasis training requires stall/spin awareness training. Actual spinning isn't required, but is allowed without parachutes.

The FAA has gotten themselves in a political hotspot on this. They have tried to bring back spins by "emphasizing" stall/spin awareness, but without actually requiring spin-flight training, because the GA public does not want it.
 
nosehair said:
Can't provide the legal interpretation reference, but spin training is allowed for any certificate or rating without parachutes.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's accurate. It only allows no 'chutes for a situation where the training is "required" - the FAA's other required training is ground training for "awareness."

Ryan
 
As I said, I cannot provide the Legal FAA Letter on this, but maybe someone else can chime in with that reference.
 
nosehair said:
What you say here is technically true, but here's how that plays out in the real world.

The bolded part, "modern airplanes are difficult to spin", creates a huge mis-understanding about the whole spin thing.

The exact same control inputs (or lack thereof) that will put a Cub (or other similar 'old' airplane) into a spin will put a Cessna 152 (or other similar 'modern' airplane into an incipient spin.

Allowing a significant yaw during stall will yaw/roll either airplane over.

The Cub will continue to develop into a full spin (which is staying stalled, spinning at stall speed -speed not increasing, until forward stick), while the 152 will develop a spiraling dive, which looks & feels like a spin to the uninitiated.

The spiraling dive will rapidly build speed until power is reduced and back elevator is applied.

The Cub's vertical descent will be much slower, giving the uninitiated more time to scream and jerk around on the controls until it straightens out.

The 152's vertical descent is much more rapid, giving the uninitiated less time to react, and if reaction is delayed much, the airspeed will rip off the wings, or the RPM will blow out the engine, whichever comes first before impact.

To the uninitiated, who may freeze and panic, a 'modern' airplane is just as dangerous as the older ones as far as stall spin control. Rolling upside down for the very first time is an amazing experience and should be experienced with a spin instructor.

The reason they stopped requiring spin training was political.
Like the reason they stopped requiring multi-engine solo time, or the commercial long x/c to be solo, and so on.
These are not training considerations, they are insurance money driven.

The reason there were so many stall/spin accidents back then is because we all had to go out and buzz our girlfriend(s)'s house.
and Mom and Dad.
and that snotty kid that thinks he's so great.

Yeeayah, lookit me, now.
WHAM!
Click to expand...

150's and 152's spin quite well and recover nicely. A 150 WILL lock into a spin if you let it rotate beyond 4 or five turns and you have to do a recovery. It won't recover on its own with out any inputs.

A spiral dive is totaly different than a spin, there are no heavy G loads in a spin unlike a spiral dive. To recover from a spiral dive its power to idle and roll wings level to recover from the dive.

A spin recovery is power to idle, full rudder opposite to yaw, yoke forward to break the stall and recover to level attitude and apply power as neccesary. If you leave power on in a spin in a 150 the spin gets flat. If you use aileron to roll out of the spin the rate increases.

It is important to recognize the difference between a spin and a spiral dive as the recovery methods are quite different. Any Cessna POH has the above listed under the emergency procedures section.
 
And the engine quits in a C-150 somewhere around turn 12. All the fuel is out at the end of the tanks. (No first-hand experience of this... yet.)
 
denverpilot said:
And the engine quits in a C-150 somewhere around turn 12. All the fuel is out at the end of the tanks. (No first-hand experience of this... yet.)
Click to expand...

That would depend on fuel level. Here's a video of a 150 doing 60 turns...which in reality is only impressive in that it takes patience and a lot of free time to get a 150 close to 10,000'. :)

www.aceaerobaticschool.com/spin.mov
 
I just had my first lesson last night in the cub. I think I won't regret choosing it. I only got a half hour flight, because the weather wasn't the best. It was cloudy and was starting to rain, but I found that sort of relaxing. One thing I liked was that flying from the backseat, I couldnt really see the instruments. This really had me focus on the outside of the plane, watching what little horizon I could see, and feeling how the plane handled and listening to changes in engine noise. I'm really happy. Going up again Wedensday.
 
Sounds great Josh!

It sounds like this will make you a good seat of the pants pilot right from the start. The rough air will be tough, but when you get smooth air, you will find out that you can fly like crazy.

Enjoy and keep us posted.

Doc
 
Doc,
Even with the overcast and rain, the air was so smooth. The bumbiest part of the flight was the landing! It was great. It was one of those gentle, summer rain showers. Like I said, it was very calm and relaxing, or it's my instructor is just one of those guys that knows how to relax someone. We got up in the air, he showed me some manuevers, and told me, "You have the plane. Have fun and play with it." I wonder of there is some study out there that compares CFI's who are older and do this becuase they love to fly vs. younger who are trying to build time. Maybe I'll start a new thread on this. Should make for good reading.
 
JB1842 said:
I wonder of there is some study out there that compares CFI's who are older and do this becuase they love to fly vs. younger who are trying to build time
Click to expand...

*ahem* I have addressed and been PO'd at comments like this before. My best CFI's have been the young ones and even if they are trying to build time that does not make them bad CFI's or bad people what-so-ever.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top