Training in an open cockpit biplane???

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jsbougher

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So, just sitting around and thinking on a Sunday afternoon. My son is 14 and we're getting ready to get him started on lessons. I was pondering whether I could use this as an excuse to get a weekend fun plane. I currently have a Velocity that is great for travel, but not sure I'm ready to hand that over to an instructor, let alone a teenager. So, I've always wanted an open air fun plane. Something along the lines of an Acroduster, Starduster, Skybolt or Marquart Charger. We live in IN, so this would only be good for flying 6-8 months a year. So my question is, would it be appropriate for a 14-15 year old to do primary training in something like this? Would still have to get it through the budget police, but maybe makes it a bit more doable since I've got an 11 year old already complaining about her brother taking gliding lessons and her having to wait. Last thought is that he could do his first 10-15 hours in a traditional (C152??) then move over to the bi-plane (since that would give me time to find and buy).
Thoughts?
Jeff
 
jsbougher said:
So, I've always wanted an open air fun plane. Something along the lines of an Acroduster, Starduster, Skybolt or Marquart Charger. We live in IN, so this would only be good for flying 6-8 months a year. So my question is, would it be appropriate for a 14-15 year old to do primary training in something like this?
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Communications would be somewhat difficult, and that's not a good thing in primary training (or any training, really). :no: Though, maybe Jay's recent experience with Lightspeed Zulus in the Ercoupe means that comm might be OK if you used a couple pairs of those with an intercom.

Depending on where you are, it may be difficult to find a CFI and a DPE who are willing to instruct in experimental airplanes if that's what you get.

The other thought is that a lot of planes that are "fun" are fun because they're not easy to fly (ie stability). It may make his training take longer, which might lead to frustration, which might lead to him not wanting to finish.

But, most of these are questions that only you can answer. I've never flown any of the aforementioned types.
 
Cernatinly not an expert here but At one time folks trained in open cocpit biplanes no reason why someone couldn't train in one now. There is alwasy that argument of how it would translate into what he is going to fly once he gets his ticket. Starting in the 152 and switchnig over to the bi plane after 10 hrs or so doesnt seem like a good idea too me. ie transition to tail dragger etc. If thats what your gonna train in thats what I'd start in.
 
The planes you mention, Acroduster, Starduster, Skybolt etc are not that great of a primary trainer and you'll probably be hard pressed to find an instructor that is qualified in one of them and willing to do it. You'll also need to find a DE which would be a challenge. That said, it's probably possible.
 
Based on my observations - it's a _lot_ easier learn in a taildragger then transition to a training wheel than going the other way around. My dad used to fly Navions, then he bought a Cessna 120 and had a heck of a time with it - I watched him go off the runway and nose it over in a ditch with mom in the right seat (she put up with a lot). I learned in the 120 and thought it was pretty easy. (My brother started out in a Champ)

I think that you subconsciously learn exactly the wrong things (for a taildragger) if you learn with a nosewheel first. Read some of the posts here from student pilots - they talk about the approach and touch down - no one talks about rolling down the runway - that's the easy part and you automatically relax. Put someone in a taildragger, and that AUTOMATIC "OK I'm on the ground, flight is over" reflex will kick in in spite of how many times you are told "you have to keep flying it all the way to the tie down". I'm not trying to insult anyone - it's just a learned reaction that you have to unlearn if you make the transition.

So, I would suggest starting your son in a taildragger. A C-120, Cub, Champ, T-Craft, etc. might be easier to come by than a biplane (and easier to find an instructor for), but it's your money. And your son, at age 14, will probably get up to speed pretty quickly.
 
Just buy a basic Cessna 140, and sell it when you're done. It has no bad manners and is a great teacher.
 
Since the son can't solo for another year or more (he's 14), I think the point is to get DAD a plane that will be fun for both of them.

So in this case, I'd go along with any plane that DAD and son find to be "fun" and that a local instructor can safely teach in. Have the sun transition to a more "normal" airplane for the solo and the checkride if the examiner is an issue.

Even better, get DAD his CFI certificate so he can take his son flying and teach as well. I don't recommend that dad be the primary instructor, but it would make a lot of fun flying together.
 
Hit this on the head as far as the goal. Don't want my son training in the Velocity and thought this might be a good excuse to buy something "fun". No passion for most trainers, though a C120, C140 or Luscombe 8 would be fun (still doesn't hit the open cockpit / bi-plane sweet spot). I'll likely just go the traditional route and pay for a rental, but just got day dreaming about how I would've liked to learn (bi-plane, grass strip, etc).

I've thought pretty seriously about getting my CFI, but definitely don't want to be my sons instructor (I've realized over the years that I'm great at sharing a passion, but not a really good teacher).

TMetzinger said:
Since the son can't solo for another year or more (he's 14), I think the point is to get DAD a plane that will be fun for both of them.

So in this case, I'd go along with any plane that DAD and son find to be "fun" and that a local instructor can safely teach in. Have the sun transition to a more "normal" airplane for the solo and the checkride if the examiner is an issue.

Even better, get DAD his CFI certificate so he can take his son flying and teach as well. I don't recommend that dad be the primary instructor, but it would make a lot of fun flying together.
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You can certainly let another CFI teach him, and then you too take fun trips together. If you were a CFI he could log the trips as dual as well.

Go read "Cannibal Queen" for inspiration. Repeat as necessary.
 
jsbougher said:
Hit this on the head as far as the goal. Don't want my son training in the Velocity and thought this might be a good excuse to buy something "fun". No passion for most trainers, though a C120, C140 or Luscombe 8 would be fun (still doesn't hit the open cockpit / bi-plane sweet spot). I'll likely just go the traditional route and pay for a rental, but just got day dreaming about how I would've liked to learn (bi-plane, grass strip, etc).

I've thought pretty seriously about getting my CFI, but definitely don't want to be my sons instructor (I've realized over the years that I'm great at sharing a passion, but not a really good teacher).
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We have a Navy Aircraft N3N for sale on our field. It's a lot bigger than the starduster sized planes but is what the Navy trained with "back in the days". It is our airport managers plane at Gladwin MI (GDW). Looks alot like a Stearman with a wider gear. I can't remember what he wants for it but it was less than 100,000. I think in the 70-80,000 range.

Barb
 
As stated above, even in the days of speaking tubes or even just clumsily passed notes or shoulder-slaps, etc. people learned the basics well enough, I think.

I've only dealt with comms once in an open biplane- a WACO with PTT for intercom. It was odd pushing a button to talk to the other guy, but it worked fine. Don't remember what kind of headsets he had, but I don't think it matters too much- even the little windscreens keep most of the slipstream out of your face (which is noisier than the exhaust- stick your head out there sometime and you'll understand); it's not all that loud, really. Sure, over prolonged flights, the hearing protection is important, but hearing and being heard on a pretty basic system is easy in such a plane, IMHO.
 
jsbougher said:
So, just sitting around and thinking on a Sunday afternoon. My son is 14 and we're getting ready to get him started on lessons. I was pondering whether I could use this as an excuse to get a weekend fun plane. I currently have a Velocity that is great for travel, but not sure I'm ready to hand that over to an instructor, let alone a teenager. So, I've always wanted an open air fun plane. Something along the lines of an Acroduster, Starduster, Skybolt or Marquart Charger. We live in IN, so this would only be good for flying 6-8 months a year. So my question is, would it be appropriate for a 14-15 year old to do primary training in something like this? Would still have to get it through the budget police, but maybe makes it a bit more doable since I've got an 11 year old already complaining about her brother taking gliding lessons and her having to wait. Last thought is that he could do his first 10-15 hours in a traditional (C152??) then move over to the bi-plane (since that would give me time to find and buy).
Thoughts?
Jeff
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One word about training in any of those....Helmet. Seriously.
 
rottydaddy said:
As stated above, even in the days of speaking tubes or even just clumsily passed notes or shoulder-slaps, etc. people learned the basics well enough, I think.
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And..plenty of people ground looped and a lot of people busted their necks. Just because some things were done---does not mean they're very smart to do now.
 
jesse said:
And..plenty of people ground looped and a lot of people busted their necks. Just because some things were done---does not mean they're very smart to do now.
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I doubt that ever happened strictly because of a lack of efficient comms, although it's possible.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Must be serious, too, coming from a guy who rides motorcycles in shorts and flip-flops with his hair blowing in the breeze... :yes:
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Yep, there's a difference between training and operating with 30years & a 100,000 miles of experience. Helmet does a few things in an open cockpit plane, allows for good communications, provides an extra layer of eye protection and should you go over the nose (a definite risk) some head protection.
 
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