Traffic pattern conflict crosswind vs 45 entry

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Hypothetical question for the group:

You are in a light twin on a 45 degree entry to the downwind. There is a complex single on crosswind staying in the pattern (published right traffic). Your relative motion has you converging at the point where you would both be turning downwind. What do you do?
 
A twin is bigger than the single. But, on the other hand, given right traffic, both the AIM and the regulations agree that the complex single has the right of way.
 
My understanding is that the plane already in the pattern has right of way. However, I agree a simple radio call could alleviate any finger pointing if nobody yields and you have a close call or worse. I'd rather figure out who is yielding before I get to the point one of us is pulling off an avoidance maneuver.
 
If on a collision course, left 360 and re-enter. If I’m going to be midfield downwind while simultaneously they’re turning downwind, I’d go in front of them. No conflict and I didn’t interfere with their downwind.
 
Velocity173 said:
If on a collision course, left 360 and re-enter. If I’m going to be midfield downwind while simultaneously they’re turning downwind, I’d go in front of them. No conflict and I didn’t interfere with their downwind.
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:yeahthat:
 
Velocity173 said:
If on a collision course, left 360 and re-enter. If I’m going to be midfield downwind while simultaneously they’re turning downwind, I’d go in front of them. No conflict and I didn’t interfere with their downwind.
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That is what I would have done.
 
Should have maneuvered to a straight in.
 
Will Kumley said:
My understanding is that the plane already in the pattern has right of way.
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I don't think any regulation supports that, although it has become a common perception, and in many cases a common mis-perception. Aircraft on final do have the ROW but all others revert to the lower altitude ROW or the standard ROW rules that apply to all airspace.

So in this case if the twin can enter the pattern and not create a conflict it's free to do so, but if it does not remain "well clear" of the single it would be a violation of 91.113 by virtue of their relative position to each other.

I agree though, that if both planes are communicating with each other they should just work out a plan. Absent that communication in this case the twin has to remain well clear of the single. Technically, in a left hand pattern the twin would have the ROW if at the same altitude as the single.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hypothetical question for the group:

You are in a light twin on a 45 degree entry to the downwind. There is a complex single on crosswind staying in the pattern (published right traffic). Your relative motion has you converging at the point where you would both be turning downwind. What do you do?
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I usually enter the pattern in my light twin much faster than a complex single would be traveling in the crosswind to downwind turn and I'd stay ahead of them. If there are several aircraft in the pattern, I may enter the pattern 500 feet above given my higher speed and try to integrate seamlessly (some airports I've seen turbine/twin listed 500' above). I've also on occasion stayed on a wide downwind if needed to integrate. If all else fails, I would turn out and attempt to rejoin slower or whatever the situation calls for. I guess it's always on a case by case basis for me and I'm always trying to communicate and make sure everyone already in the pattern is happy. As the newcomer to the party, I'll gladly take the last seat at the table. :)
 
Velocity173 said:
If on a collision course, left 360 and re-enter. If I’m going to be midfield downwind while simultaneously they’re turning downwind, I’d go in front of them. No conflict and I didn’t interfere with their downwind.
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Did you mean right 360? If left traffic, the left 360 would have you head-on against left downwind traffic? Or is that so you can keep eyes on him?
 
Velocity173 said:
If on a collision course, left 360 and re-enter. If I’m going to be midfield downwind while simultaneously they’re turning downwind, I’d go in front of them. No conflict and I didn’t interfere with their downwind.
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This!

There’s no reason to just continue on the projected path without altering course if it’s that close.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hypothetical question for the group:

You are in a light twin on a 45 degree entry to the downwind. There is a complex single on crosswind staying in the pattern (published right traffic). Your relative motion has you converging at the point where you would both be turning downwind. What do you do?
Click to expand...

In a right pattern, the aircraft is to your right and has the right of way. A 180 for spacing then enter the pattern.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hypothetical question for the group:

You are in a light twin on a 45 degree entry to the downwind. There is a complex single on crosswind staying in the pattern (published right traffic). Your relative motion has you converging at the point where you would both be turning downwind. What do you do?
Click to expand...

Communicate. If for some reason I can’t communicate, assuming left traffic, I will break off 225 degrees right and try again.
 
Whether left or right traffic, if the plane on the 45 doesn’t yield, he forces the plane in the pattern to make an unplanned and unusual pattern exit.

In the right pattern scenario, the complex single on xwind would have to make a left turn. A left 360 would have him circling back over the departure end of the runway. Could be bad if someone were departing behind him, knowing him to be on the crosswind. Even a left 90 might be a problem if he were still close to the runway centerline.

Safest thing seems to be for the twin to do a left 360 while communicating.
 
Do what you want fearless, everyone knows a puny flat motor(even two of them) must yield to a round motor while chanting “I’m not worthy! I’m not worthy!”
 
The important concept is to know when it's your obligation to "remain clear" of the other aircraft, and that's defined by the ROW regulations.

An aircraft on final approach has the ROW. It doesn't matter if you were in the pattern first or if you are at a lower altitude. It's your responsibility to remain clear of the aircraft on final approach. If you can turn base, land, and clear the runway and still remain clear it's irrelevant that he was somewhere on final. The same applies in the OP's scenario, where the twin is obligated to remain clear of the single to his right. That doesn't prevent him from landing first as long as he remains clear of the single.

So in the OP's scenario it really matters where the single is on crosswind is, where the twin would enter the downwind and how fast each plane is travelling. "What would you do" would depend for me on those "wheres". It's not unlike deciding when to pull out in front of traffic on a highway, except that in car you can simply stop.
 
Not sure how many engines matters, just speed, but if both were about the same speed, if I were the twin I’d probably just fly a 360 and enter the downwind no biggie
 
Twin should have bailed. That said if the single heard the twin calling in while on the upwind he should have stayed on the upwind.
 
Yield to traffic already in pattern and time your joining of the conga line accordingly....while maybe not regulatory, it is common courtesy.

I get that scenario all the time at my busy uncontrolled field and I either firewall it or pull back to slow flight on the 45 to enter accordingly if a conflict is anticipated.
 
My pet peeve is the guy holding short who knows I'm on an extended (1.5-mile) crosswind pattern entry, and takes off precisely at the time that puts us on an intersecting path. Aaaargh! :mad:

Call me courteous, but if I were that guy, I'd hold maybe 15 seconds more, and neither of us would be spooked.
 
dbahn said:
I don't think any regulation supports that, although it has become a common perception, and in many cases a common mis-perception.
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The AIM says that the aircraft on the 45 should give way - which, for left traffic contradicts what the regulations say. But that has already been beaten to death.
Fearless Tower said:
Actually my single (T6) was bigger than the twin (Twin Comanche)
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There you go. Who cares about some Twinkie? Press on.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The AIM says that the aircraft on the 45 should give way - which, for left traffic contradicts what the regulations say. But that has already been beaten to death.

There you go. Who cares about some Twinkie? Press on.
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AIM isn’t regulatory, but seems basic common sense too for the twin to make a 360 or drop gear and cut speed or something
 
Why is the traffic pattern so difficult? Be courteous and work it out like adults. All the rules, regs, forums posts, etc., aren't going to do you a damn thing when you're dead because you were "right".
 
AIM is not "regulatory" but the pattern recommendations are what most pilots have been instructed with for many years. 45 degree entry should give way to traffic on downwind.

I had to learn all of this late in life. I honestly don't remember being taught about non towered traffic pattern rules 35 years ago. Just used common sense and the radio. But look at how people drive on the highway now and I think it has bled over to the air.
 
I've managed to pass a few over the past 35 years. But thanks for the thought.

My point was that there is still alot of confusion regarding pattern entry into non towered fields. This was not a point of emphasis many years ago. I am glad that it is now.
 
I would slow as much as possible to keep all the action in front of me.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Why is the traffic pattern so difficult? Be courteous and work it out like adults. All the rules, regs, forums posts, etc., aren't going to do you a damn thing when you're dead because you were "right".
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Well, I think the only thing worse than lack of courtesy in the traffic pattern is lack of knowledge about what should be done in any given situation. Two airplanes yielding to each other in an improvised way can be just as bad as one insisting that he's right, and not all aircraft are always communicating effectively.

Knowing the ROW regulations provides a good basis to avoid confusion and make room for courtesy. I think these discussions are productive in that sense. I've seen some close calls happen because one pilot misunderstood the rules, and then blamed the other aircraft for the conflict.
 
Or just be the pilot that doesn't like to bother with worrying about traffic pattern entry and just make every approach straight in "on final"!

Have definitely seen a few of those jewels over the years!
 
There is no preference for someone being in the pattern vs. approaching the pattern. The aircraft are converging (other than head on). The aircraft on the right (the entering pilot if this is left traffic) has the right of way.

Of course, unlike nautical navigation, there's on privileged or "stand on" vessel in aviation. Both planes have equal responsibility to avoid a collision. As pointed out, don't assert right of way unless you are sure the other party is going to yield.
 
flyingron said:
There is no preference for someone being in the pattern vs. approaching the pattern.
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While there may not be a mandated preference there sure as hell is common courtesy and cutting someone off that is already established in the pattern forcing THEM to break off is an absolute Delta Bravo self centered move in my book just because you can.

I guess we are at a point in society that you need to regulate common courtesy to account for every lowest common denominator.
 
Here's an idea - don't be a jerk and talk on the radio. I find that these two rules work in harmony.

It is like the Cirrus pilot that sets up a 20 mile VFR straight in, then flies it clean, at approach flap speed, till 5 miles out, with lots of people in the pattern. They might talk on the radio (or maybe not), but they are being a jerk. Same with the dolt who doesn't use their radio, because they technically don't have to and 'murica, who ruins everyone's situational awareness.

Yes, the AIM has some nifty tips on how to fly the pattern. Some work great, some are pretty advisory and maybe a bit stale. Talking and being courteous will always make things better. Oh, and blue line is not 100 knots VFR Baron driver following a single on an approach.
 
Shawn said:
While there may not be a mandated preference there sure as hell is common courtesy and cutting someone off that is already established in the pattern forcing THEM to break off is an absolute Delta Bravo self centered move in my book just because you can.

I guess we are at a point in society that you need to regulate common courtesy to account for every lowest common denominator.
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I think that as long as the AIM and other guidance publications continue to make recommendations that are contrary to regulations, there will continue to be confusion about roles and responsibilities in the vicinity of a non-towered field. Consequently, the best policy is to be ready to take action to avoid a conflict regardless of who we think has the right of way. And I agree that if both aircraft have radios, it's best to use them to aid in conflict-avoidance.
 
Real world. Switch the single and twin. I knew the student pilot - on her last prep flight before her commercial multi check ride. I like to think I would have heard the initial mooney call and thought to myself "get a visual before turning". But I also know clouds creep in on the departure end of the runway here. https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20020927X05234&AKey=2&RType=HTML&IType=FA



Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 
Shawn said:
While there may not be a mandated preference there sure as hell is common courtesy and cutting someone off that is already established in the pattern forcing THEM to break off is an absolute Delta Bravo self centered move in my book just because you can.

I guess we are at a point in society that you need to regulate common courtesy to account for every lowest common denominator.
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You didn't much listen to what I said, did you? Or did you just come here to rant about your personal view of how the air regulations should work?

As I pointed out, safety (and yes courtesy) goes both ways. The person trying to enter the pattern needs courtesy from those already in the pattern or he may be stuck out there burning fuel while a bunch of "self-cenetered DBs" drone around continuously in the pattern.

By your argument, you'll leave a bunch of guys sitting in the run-up area, unable to get into the air because the pattern is full of people who you feel have more of a right to the airspace than they?

As Mr. Palm points out, the regulations are the last resort when other communications and common sense yield the need for a conflict resolution.
 
BTDT. What twin vs complex single has to do with it I'll never know. Still, I'll go turn a big circle or something until the guy is out of the way, or maybe even go to another airport int he guy isn't on the radio (after checking to make certain I'm on the right frequency, I've sung that song too).
 
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