Traffic pattern conflict crosswind vs 45 entry

Fearless Tower said:
Only difference is speed. Twin is going faster than the single which makes the problem a little more challenging.
Click to expand...
Says you. Aren't that many light twins that'll outrun yours truly. Moreover, in a traffic pattern everyone should be down around 90-100 knots, right?
 
steingar said:
Moreover, in a traffic pattern everyone should be down around 90-100 knots, right?
Click to expand...
Where did you get that idea? I fly several airplanes (my Twin Beech for example) that you can’t get below 100 in the pattern. My stick shaker goes off at 95.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Where did you get that idea? I fly several airplanes (my Twin Beech for example) that you can’t get below 100 in the pattern. My stick shaker goes off at 95.
Click to expand...
Most light light aircraft are certificated for fairly low approach speeds. It's why a lot of the experimental aircraft can't be certificated, they come in too fast.
 
steingar said:
Says you. Aren't that many light twins that'll outrun yours truly. Moreover, in a traffic pattern everyone should be down around 90-100 knots, right?
Click to expand...
That's just plain incorrect.
 
steingar said:
Most light light aircraft are certificated for fairly low approach speeds. It's why a lot of the experimental aircraft can't be certificated, they come in too fast.
Click to expand...
That is totally false as well.
 
steingar said:
Most light light aircraft are certificated for fairly low approach speeds. It's why a lot of the experimental aircraft can't be certificated, they come in too fast.
Click to expand...

That's not correct either. Maybe you should have went to Clemson.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hypothetical question for the group:

You are in a light twin on a 45 degree entry to the downwind. There is a complex single on crosswind staying in the pattern (published right traffic). Your relative motion has you converging at the point where you would both be turning downwind. What do you do?
Click to expand...
On its current course, the complex single is converging on your right, so you have to yield to it per FAR 91.113 (d). Was this a trick question?
 
Follow the regs and be courteous. And if not, you can always be passive-aggressive about it.

"Texan 345 extending leg for the b-hole in the Twinkie"
 
David Megginson said:
On its current course, the complex single is converging on your right, so you have to yield to it per FAR 91.113 (d). Was this a trick question?
Click to expand...

The argument on this (which I brought up in a thread a few months back) is that the AC says the plane on the right is to give way in pattern situations. So do you follow the recommendation or the regulation?
 
Will Kumley said:
My understanding is that the plane already in the pattern has right of way. However, I agree a simple radio call could alleviate any finger pointing if nobody yields and you have a close call or worse. I'd rather figure out who is yielding before I get to the point one of us is pulling off an avoidance maneuver.
Click to expand...
I'm Canadian, but as far as I know, the only place the FARS give a plane in the pattern right of way over other planes is when it's on its final approach leg for landing.
 
Regulated or not, if I can't get into downwind before the pattern traffic I'll yield and either 360 or adjust my speed to ensure I'm behind him.
 
EdFred said:
The argument on this (which I brought up in a thread a few months back) is that the AC says the plane on the right is to give way in pattern situations. So do you follow the recommendation or the regulation?
Click to expand...
You're not in the pattern yet. In any case, this should be an easy one -- if the other pilot doesn't come on the radio and offer to let you in, do a slow left-hand 360 and then join downwind a couple of minutes behind the other plane.

A more-interesting problem is the Canadian one, where our VFR standard circuit entry is overhead rather than 45°. When I cross overhead to join mid right downwind, presumably I have right of way over anyone who just turned downwind off crosswind (I'm converging off their right wing); when I cross overhead to join mid left downwind, presumably anyone who just turned downwind has right of way over me (they're converging off my right wing). I don't think there's any widespread agreement on how to handle the situations, but somehow, we work it out.
 
David Megginson said:
You're not in the pattern yet. In any case, this should be an easy one -- if the other pilot doesn't come on the radio and offer to let you in, do a slow left-hand 360 and then join downwind a couple of minutes behind the other plane.

A more-interesting problem is the Canadian one, where our VFR standard circuit entry is overhead rather than 45°. When I cross overhead to join mid right downwind, presumably I have right of way over anyone who just turned downwind off crosswind (I'm converging off their right wing); when I cross overhead to join mid left downwind, presumably anyone who just turned downwind has right of way over me (they're converging off my right wing). I don't think there's any widespread agreement on how to handle the situations, but somehow, we work it out.
Click to expand...

You aren't in the pattern, but right of way rules still apply, except of course when they don't. The FAA's right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. Probably because they are using their ass as a view limiting device.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
My pet peeve is the guy holding short who knows I'm on an extended (1.5-mile) crosswind pattern entry, and takes off precisely at the time that puts us on an intersecting path. Aaaargh! :mad:

Call me courteous, but if I were that guy, I'd hold maybe 15 seconds more, and neither of us would be spooked.
Click to expand...

Stop telling fibs to these other pilots! Nothing "on the ground" will EVER catch up with an RV in the air;);)
 
CRQFlier said:
Real world. Switch the single and twin. I knew the student pilot - on her last prep flight before her commercial multi check ride. I like to think I would have heard the initial mooney call and thought to myself "get a visual before turning". But I also know clouds creep in on the departure end of the runway here. https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20020927X05234&AKey=2&RType=HTML&IType=FA
Click to expand...

That's also an example how even in the real world communication alone can't prevent these conflicts, as both pilots were talking to ATC in towered airspace. Situational awareness is critical with a readiness to do whatever best resolves any kind of conflict with another aircraft.

Note also (as I mentioned previously) how a hastily implemented evasive maneuver can be worse than a precautionary one further away from the conflict:

One witness observed the Mooney, which was light brown with dark brown accents, bank to the right immediately prior to impact. Another witness reported that both airplanes appeared to turn at the last second, but both turned the same way into each other. Witnesses reported that the two airplanes merged, and then they saw a puff of white smoke.
Click to expand...

This would apply nicely in the OP's scenario, i.e. unless the twin approaching the downwind entry is absolutely certain that he can remain clear of the single for landing he should remain clear by exiting the pattern. And the reason he should remain clear is based on the knowledge that the other aircraft has the ROW, not some ambiguity about courtesy, "in the pattern first", faster, bigger, twin, or any other ill-defined property. As Mark and Palm are also pointing out, the rules are there for a reason.
 
Last edited:
It's much easier and safer for the twin entering the pattern to turn away than it is for the guy in the pattern to turn imho. Talking really does prevent these situations. I do it all the time. Had a citation on the ground ask if he had time to take off when I was abeam the numbers, I told him "sure, I'll extend, let me know when you start rolling." It cost me about 30 seconds. Another time I was on the ground, ready to go lots of planes in the pattern, a tbm 850 was abeam the numbers next to land, I asked him if I would screw him up if I took off, he told me have at it he'd extend. Talking works, it's the guys with a hair across their ass that f's everything up.
 
PaulS said:
It's much easier and safer for the twin entering the pattern to turn away than it is for the guy in the pattern to turn imho. Talking really does prevent these situations. I do it all the time. Had a citation on the ground ask if he had time to take off when I was abeam the numbers, I told him "sure, I'll extend, let me know when you start rolling." It cost me about 30 seconds. Another time I was on the ground, ready to go lots of planes in the pattern, a tbm 850 was abeam the numbers next to land, I asked him if I would screw him up if I took off, he told me have at it he'd extend. Talking works, it's the guys with a hair across their ass that f's everything up.
Click to expand...
Absolutely right, as long as you keep an eye open for the NORDOs. While you're talking to the TBM on downwind, there might already be a Cub or ultralight on base or final.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Where did you get that idea? I fly several airplanes (my Twin Beech for example) that you can’t get below 100 in the pattern. My stick shaker goes off at 95.
Click to expand...
100 kt in the pattern usually fine, but when you're sharing the pattern with a lot of slow planes (150s, Cubs, etc), would dropping your gear and a notch of flaps make it any easier for you to fly a slower downwind?
 
PaulS said:
Always looking, but those guys should get a radio. My opinion.
Click to expand...
Good idea—I'd have a portable Yaesu or iCOM with me if I were in a simple plane or glider—but not required. And sometimes you're NORDO through no fault of your own (as I was coming into my home airport last spring, after an electrical problem).
 
Hmm.... If you're on the 45, and situated so as to turn down wind at the mid-field point, I wouldn't think you'd conflict with traffic on the crosswind.

Pattern-diagram.jpg


traffic-patterns_web-640x441.jpg
 
steingar said:
Says you. Aren't that many light twins that'll outrun yours truly. Moreover, in a traffic pattern everyone should be down around 90-100 knots, right?
Click to expand...
No. Twin drivers have a minimum speed that is well above stall that they're trying to stay away from...
 
wilkersk said:
Hmm.... If you're on the 45, and situated so as to turn down wind at the mid-field point, I wouldn't think you'd conflict with traffic on the crosswind.
Click to expand...

Again, it's the actual position of each aircraft that's the key. There is a nearly infinite subset of locations of "an aircraft on crosswind" and "an aircraft on downwind", and their relative positions and speeds are critical in determining how to "remain clear". Absent a clear dialog between two aircraft, someone has to get out of the way of the other. Sure, it's usually a judgment call but if it doesn't work out and the FSDO gets involved it's now their judgment call in taking certificate action, and they'll usually refer to the regulations (and sometimes the AIM) in determining a violation.
 
dbahn said:
Again, it's the actual position of each aircraft that's the key. There is a nearly infinite subset of locations of "an aircraft on crosswind" and "an aircraft on downwind", and their relative positions and speeds are critical in determining how to "remain clear". Absent a clear dialog between two aircraft, someone has to get out of the way of the other. Sure, it's usually a judgment call but if it doesn't work out and the FSDO gets involved it's now their judgment call in taking certificate action, and they'll usually refer to the regulations (and sometimes the AIM) in determining a violation.
Click to expand...


But given the basic "rules of the road" we are all supposed to be familiar with, if you're on a 45 pattern entry, and you ARE conflicting with traffic on the cross-wind, is there really any doubt as to what you should do?

I mean, if I'm on the 45 ready to turn downwind, and a J3 cub, doing all of 60kts has just turned from cross-wind to down-wind (at the appropriate place) I'm not even close to having a conflict, I'll be well clear of the runway before he turns final. On the other hand, If I'm on the 45, and it looks like an aircraft of similar speed is gonna meet me on the downwind, Its pretty obvious I need to take action to yield to aircraft established in te pattern. What's the safeest way to do that? It depends on the situation. But, hopefully if there's someone else behind me on the 45, they're paying attention and looking outside, rather than staring at their iPad.
 
Last edited:
David Megginson said:
I'm Canadian, but as far as I know, the only place the FARS give a plane in the pattern right of way over other planes is when it's on its final approach leg for landing.
Click to expand...
Which really has nothing to do with the pattern. Airplanes on final approach have the right of way whether they were flying the pattern or not.
 
wilkersk said:
But given the basic "rules of the road" we are all supposed to be familiar with, if you're on a 45 pattern entry, and you ARE conflicting with traffic on the cross-wind, is there really any doubt as to what you should do?
Click to expand...
Not in my mind. Again, the aircraft on the right has the right of way. As pointed out, the regs have an overriding rule that requires both pilots to avoid collision hazards. If the pilot's are communication (and aren't louts), they'll decide who goes first. No point in a cub trying to lead a high performance plane in most cases. Even my Navion which is fast in cruise, is not doing more than 85 knots in the pattern (that's where the gear/flap speeds are). I'll move behind anything faster.
 
flyingron said:
Which really has nothing to do with the pattern. Airplanes on final approach have the right of way whether they were flying the pattern or not.
Click to expand...
And it's important for all pilots to know that, whether they like straight-ins or not. I'd go one step further and say that according to the Pilot Controller Glossary the aircraft on final approach IS in the pattern, by definition.

Traffic Pattern.jpg
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hypothetical question for the group:

You are in a light twin on a 45 degree entry to the downwind. There is a complex single on crosswind staying in the pattern (published right traffic). Your relative motion has you converging at the point where you would both be turning downwind. What do you do?
Click to expand...

You don't want to get in front of the other airplane (and lose sight of it) unless you can positively verify that he has you in sight and understands your intentions. Instead, I would slow down and change heading to get behind the other airplane. I would extend the downwind and make a long final if more spacing is needed.
 
MIFlyer said:
No. Twin drivers have a minimum speed that is well above stall that they're trying to stay away from...
Click to expand...
And it's 105 mph in the Twinkie. In mine I never went below that until cement was assured power off.
 
unsafervguy said:
And it's 105 mph in the Twinkie. In mine I never went below that until cement was assured power off.
Click to expand...
Blue line is a TAKEOFF ref speed for max gross weight, gear and flaps up at sea level — w/one engine feathered, max power and lots of rudder on the good engine side and obstacles straight ahead. Why would you (or anybody) apply that to a normal landing approach at less weight, dirtied up and much, much higher up?
 
dtuuri said:
Blue line is a TAKEOFF ref speed for max gross weight, gear and flaps up at sea level — w/one engine feathered, max power and lots of rudder on the good engine side and obstacles straight ahead. Why would you (or anybody) apply that to a normal landing approach at less weight, dirtied up and much, much higher up?
Click to expand...

We always train to maintain at least blue line until the runway is made, normally blue line +10. It gives you time and options if something goes wrong.
 
This makes no sense. Vyse (blue line) + 10 is silly. If you're worried about climbing with one out, you want to be at Vyse, no more no less. Other than that, it has no particular magic. VMC (the red radial line) you might want some margin. However, both of these are predicated on as dturri said, one full power, the other feathered.
 
late to the party but the correct answer depends on how bad you have to pee. If real bad, cage one engine declare and cut the puny single off.

:D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top