Traffic deconfliction at an uncontrolled airspace

[Cluemeister]

I learned on PoA the best way to enter the pattern of a non towered field, especially when it’s super busy is to fly a straight in IFR approach using the opposite runway that everyone else is using and just announce “don’t worry, it’s fine”.

You need to give proper credit for the "don't worry, it's fine" quote. If I remember correctly, Mr. No Problem Jackwagon said that.

 

[eman1200]

You need to give proper credit for the "don't worry, it's fine" quote. If I remember correctly, Mr. No Problem Jackwagon said that.

That’s him!

 

[danhagan]

You need to be climbing around 2000 feet/minute to be at pattern altitude mid-field. Most GA aircraft cannot do that.

Most any RV can climb at 2000 FPM, and they are an awfully common GA aircraft these days. Even my Grumman will do 1500 FPM when light. I am frequently at pattern altitude shorty after turning downwind, much less mid-field.

Even full fuel, I was normally at TPA on the turn from crosswind to downwind in the Tiger. I'm in a hot high DA area, so never climbed at Vx in the Tiger, otherwise I'd be above 410* CHTs at that same turn.

 

[EdFred]

Even full fuel, I was normally at TPA on the turn from crosswind to downwind in the Tiger. I'm in a hot high DA area, so never climbed at Vx in the Tiger, otherwise I'd be above 410* CHTs at that same turn.

That's not at midfield at most GA fields though (3000-4000 runway)

 

[steingar]

Most any RV can climb at 2000 FPM, and they are an awfully common GA aircraft these days.

Yeah, but those RV's love to trail smoke when they do their zoom climbs. I just wish I could find the video of Hitler espousing the benefits of the zoom climb. Now that was funny.

Even my Grumman will do 1500 FPM when light. I am frequently at pattern altitude shorty after turning downwind, much less mid-field.

Minimum gas, only you and a Vx takeoff. Sorry, your Grumman is powered by the same engine as my Mooney, it doesn't run on pixie dust and unicorn farts. Even at 1500 feet a minute you will not be 1000 feet above the runway elevation until 40 seconds after rotation. I imagine your climb out is around 100 mph (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that one, Grummans are weird after all), therefore when you reach midfield of a 5000 ft runway you will be at 750 feet, still 250 feet shy of pattern altitude. That's on a cold day with your airplane empty save a naked you, and everything working really really well, and you using a Vx takeoff for some reason that is less than transparent to me. Perhaps so you can collide with someone doing a midfield entry.

 

[danhagan]

Sorry, your Grumman is powered by the same engine as my Mooney, it doesn't run on pixie dust and unicorn farts. Even at 1500 feet a minute you will not be 1000 feet above the runway elevation until 40 seconds after rotation. I imagine your climb out is around 100 mph (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that one, Grummans are weird after all), therefore when you reach midfield of a 5000 ft runway you will be at 750 feet, still 250 feet shy of pattern altitude. That's on a cold day with your airplane empty save a naked you, and everything working really really well, and you using a Vx takeoff for some reason that is less than transparent to me. Perhaps so you can collide with someone doing a midfield entry.

Seem a little "tweaked" this morning Steingar. Kind of hard not to be at TPA on the downwind turn if the AIM recommends turn to crosswind at 800 AGL (unless IFR or instructed ... you can insert all the usual AIM responses now).

 

[steingar]

Seem a little "tweaked" this morning Steingar. Kind of hard not to be at TPA on the downwind turn if the AIM recommends turn to crosswind at 800 AGL (unless IFR or instructed ... you can insert all the usual AIM responses now).

So you all turn downwind at midfield when doing pattern work? That is what was under discussion, midfield entry. A bunch of you think there are routinely aircraft at pattern altitude midfield, and I've shown it impossible save for RVs doing zoom climbs and Grummans powered by unicorn flatulence.

 

[DrewG]

So you all turn downwind at midfield when doing pattern work? That is what was under discussion, midfield entry. A bunch of you think there are routinely aircraft at pattern altitude midfield, and I've shown it impossible save for RVs doing zoom climbs and Grummans powered by unicorn flatulence.

I understood you to mean midfield on takeoff - or put another way, at midfield on the "upwind" leg after taking off and still directly over the runway; not midfield downwind. Seems that most are interpreting you as implying the latter and not the former.

 

[steingar]

Yes, there can always be aircraft midfield on the downwind. I wasn't trying to gainsay that. However, such aircraft should be visible to an aircraft entering the pattern midfield. See and avoid, just like any other pattern entry. That's why I said I don't do such entires at airfields that are heavily trafficked. To my mind entering on the perpendicular to the field at midfield gives you a really good view, good enough to see potentially conflicting traffic. That said, doing it a bit above pattern altitude isn't the worst idea, just in case the Mark IIs miss something. However, even if you turn downwind midfield a couple hundred feet high, most of our aircraft can shed that energy without undue theatrics in the pattern. I can even do that in my Mooney, which is a very slick aircraft. But dirtied up the airframe is sufficiently draggy to shed airspeed and altitude. I prefer that to loosing situational awareness. Then again, that's me. To each his or her own.

 

[PaulS]

Ok, midfield, over the runway, if an airplane is taking off, I'm generally not worried about that when doing a Crossfield entry (crossing over the middle of the runway), when entering the downwind from the Crossfield entry, I am absolutely concerned about traffic that is midfield down wind as we are both at pattern altitude potentially in the same location, very bad place to be. If I hear an AC on down wind while I'm about to cross the field and I don't see that AC, I will take appropriate measures.

 

[danhagan]

So you all turn downwind at midfield when doing pattern work? That is what was under discussion, midfield entry. A bunch of you think there are routinely aircraft at pattern altitude midfield, and I've shown it impossible save for RVs doing zoom climbs and Grummans powered by unicorn flatulence.

I no longer own a Grumman, so am not sure the target or your snide remarks. If you go back a few, your message SOUNDS like an AC can't make TPA on the midfield DOWNWIND .... which is YOUR poor vocab skillz not anyone elses. My first message indicated I reach TPA at the crosswind to downwind, at which point you started your asinine statements like the one above regarding grumman AC, unicorns and runway lengths.

 

[EdFred]

I no longer own a Grumman, so am not sure the target or your snide remarks. If you go back a few, your message SOUNDS like an AC can't make TPA on the midfield DOWNWIND .... which is YOUR poor vocab skillz not anyone elses. My first message indicated I reach TPA at the crosswind to downwind, at which point you started your asinine statements like the one above regarding grumman AC, unicorns and runway lengths.

I actually read it as one was at TPA on departure at the midfield point. Not at TPA after making crosswind and back to downwind. That's pretty normal most every aircraft. A few of thought people were making their taking roll, making TPA at the midpoint of the runway, then making their crosswind turn. I think that's what steingar was saying is crazy.

 

[PaulS]

I actually read it as one was at TPA on departure at the midfield point. Not at TPA after making crosswind and back to downwind. That's pretty normal most every aircraft. A few of thought people were making their taking roll, making TPA at the midpoint of the runway, then making their crosswind turn. I think that's what steingar was saying is crazy.

Yes, that is crazy. I've never heard anyone refer to mid field during a take off roll/ lift off, hence the confusion.

 

[Hank S]

Ok, midfield, over the runway, if an airplane is taking off, I'm generally not worried about that when doing a Crossfield entry (crossing over the middle of the runway), when entering the downwind from the Crossfield entry, I am absolutely concerned about traffic that is midfield down wind as we are both at pattern altitude potentially in the same location, very bad place to be. If I hear an AC on down wind while I'm about to cross the field and I don't see that AC, I will take appropriate measures.

How is this different from coming into downwind on the 45 and having other traffic in the pattern, or coming in from a further-out 45? You gotta look, you gotta see, you gotta avoid. Or is there really more drama looking for traffic out the right side window when crossing over from the far side versus the left side window when approaching from the same side as the pattern?

 

[PaulS]

How is this different from coming into downwind on the 45 and having other traffic in the pattern, or coming in from a further-out 45? You gotta look, you gotta see, you gotta avoid. Or is there really more drama looking for traffic out the right side window when crossing over from the far side versus the left side window when approaching from the same side as the pattern?

Exactly.

 

[StevieTimes]

Here is some food for thought; what's wrong with my "figure 11" below?

Here, I'll say the obvious... you need to look out for climbing traffic. I recognize the potential conflict there.

I am not a fan of descending into the traffic pattern, even by a couple hundred feet, only because I seem to recall that has caused issues in the past (high wing vs low wing visibility perhaps). So if figure 10 has to be modified to include "then descend into the pattern", I'm already not a big fan. Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

So I'm proposing we get rid of figure 10, and replace it with figure 11. Then the valid ways are:

1. 45 degree to the midfield downwind
2. 45 degrees to the midfield upwind

If one has to cross the upwind anyway (like figure 10 suggests), why not just merge in there? A person has already determined it was clear enough to cruise through there at pattern altitude.

 

[EdFred]

Here is some food for thought; what's wrong with my "figure 11" below?

View attachment 65157

Here, I'll say the obvious... you need to look out for climbing traffic. I recognize the potential conflict there.

I am not a fan of descending into the traffic pattern, even by a couple hundred feet, only because I seem to recall that has caused issues in the past (high wing vs low wing visibility perhaps). So if figure 10 has to be modified to include "then descend into the pattern", I'm already not a big fan. Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

So I'm proposing we get rid of figure 10, and replace it with figure 11. Then the valid ways are:

1. 45 degree to the midfield downwind
2. 45 degrees to the midfield upwind

If one has to cross the upwind anyway (like figure 10 suggests), why not just merge in there? A person has already determined it was clear enough to cruise through there at pattern altitude.

What I do is I monitor the entire area and start a midfield upwind. Then based on what I can visually see around I will make my crosswind entry anywhere from immediately at midfield to over the numbers to slightly past the numbers depending if there's other traffic or if I am all by myself.

One trick I also do is before getting to the traffic pattern I actually drop a hundred feet to 200 ft below the traffic pattern when I'm 3 miles out or so and that way I can pick out other airplanes in the pattern against just above the horizon rather than trying to pick them out in ground clutter. Then I pop up to pattern altitude and do what needs to be done.