Tracking of flight times - MyFlightBook vs Foreflight logbook

[RussR]

I use MyFlightbook by @EricBe to log my flights, and do so with the "engine start/engine stop" functionality, pressing a button when each of those occur. It then calculates the time for the logbook based on simple subtraction (and conversion to tenths).

My current student uses Foreflight Logbook. As far as I know, he doesn't actually do anything, it just logs the flight at the end.

However, there is always a difference, and his is always greater. Last flight his said 2.2 where mine was 2.0 (and my watch agreed).

I guess my first question is how does Foreflight Logbook calculate flight times? I assume it must just sense takeoff and landing, and add some fixed number for taxi time, which seems very inaccurate. We are at an uncontrolled field, so it's not like we're sitting there waiting for a long time for traffic.

For those of you who do use Foreflight Logbook, do you generally manually edit the flight times? Or do you just accept whatever it gave? Some other method?

(I will say we seem to have far more problems with his than mine, as far as detecting takeoffs and landings, handling multiple back-to-back flights, waiting for the flight to even show up as available, etc.)

 

[Salty]

I think foreflight is using speed to start and stop the clock. But it might be trying to be smart and count some time before and after to estimate time in the cockpit prepping and shutting down. "For the purpose of flight" not "actual flight", so to speak.

 

[AlphaMike]

I use the Forefligh logbook. It's almost always off by an extra 10 to 20 mins. I just edit it. I really haven't tried any other E logbook. I just figure since I'm using Forflight already I might as well use the logbook too.

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

I would hit the record button in Foreflight when I started the engine and its times would almost always be 0.1 lower than the Hobbs meter. Brought it up to the flight school but the only resolution was me editing the time in Foreflight to match the Hobbs. All my flights are in my paper logbook and then manually added to myflightbook.

 

[Computerjim]

ForeFlight counts the time from first motion until final stop. This includes taxi times and, holds on the ground,run ups and such. This is the definition for logging pilot times. Aircraft time is the time from when the wheels leave the ground until touchdown. It is used to track times intervals for engine and airframe logs. Aircraft time is always less than pilot flying time. The FARs list this in two different sections.

 

[bluesky74656]

My experience is that ForeFlight will keep recording for a little bit after I shut down. If I’m quick enough packing up I’ve even had it record my drive home as part of the flight. In planes with a Hobbs meter I always edit to use the Hobbs time. In the plane I fly without one, I generally use the ForeFlight time, but I’ve also made it a habit to hit the Stop Recording button after I shut down. For my purposes and especially in that one plane the extra couple tenths won’t make a difference.

 

[RussR]

ForeFlight counts the time from first motion until final stop. This includes taxi times and, holds on the ground,run ups and such. This is the definition for logging pilot times. Aircraft time is the time from when the wheels leave the ground until touchdown. It is used to track times intervals for engine and airframe logs. Aircraft time is always less than pilot flying time. The FARs list this in two different sections.

There are various accepted ways for accounting for flight time, time-in-service, etc. But none of them can be longer than engine start-to-engine stop time. Foreflight Logbook seems to consistently (for him), log a couple more tenths than the actual engine running time. Which is obviously even more than the time it would detect the aircraft is in motion.

Unless, of course, it's adding some fixed value. OR, I guess another question would be, how does it know when to start? Could it be detecting his walk to the airplane?

My experience is that ForeFlight will keep recording for a little bit after I shut down. If I’m quick enough packing up I’ve even had it record my drive home as part of the flight. In planes with a Hobbs meter I always edit to use the Hobbs time. In the plane I fly without one, I generally use the ForeFlight time, but I’ve also made it a habit to hit the Stop Recording button after I shut down. For my purposes and especially in that one plane the extra couple tenths won’t make a difference.

Excellent point. We typically land, taxi to the fuel pump, fill up, then taxi back to the hangar. So that time we're just sitting there could be counted by FF as part of the flight. And I guess that would be about 10 minutes, or 0.2. We may have found the error.

Is it possible to tell FF to "start timing now" and "stop timing now"?

 

[Lindberg]

Unless, of course, it's adding some fixed value. OR, I guess another question would be, how does it know when to start? Could it be detecting his walk to the airplane?

It could be detecting his walk from the airplane as well unless there's a "STOP" button. How would it know when the aircraft has come to rest if the tablet is still moving? It doesn't know the difference between taxing and walking or being in the plane or your bag. If there's not a stop button, maybe there's a threshold of "sitting still for x seconds" equals flight end.

Even though you're asking about how Foreflight does it, @EricBe might know the answer.

 

[bluesky74656]

Excellent point. We typically land, taxi to the fuel pump, fill up, then taxi back to the hangar. So that time we're just sitting there could be counted by FF as part of the flight. And I guess that would be about 10 minutes, or 0.2. We may have found the error.

Is it possible to tell FF to "start timing now" and "stop timing now"?

ForeFlight uses the recording for timing. You can manually start and stop the recording. It’s the REC button on the side of the map screen.

 

[EricBe]

ForeFlight counts the time from first motion until final stop. This includes taxi times and, holds on the ground,run ups and such. This is the definition for logging pilot times. Aircraft time is the time from when the wheels leave the ground until touchdown. It is used to track times intervals for engine and airframe logs. Aircraft time is always less than pilot flying time. The FARs list this in two different sections.

Indeed, but should emphasize that this is the definition for civilian flight under FAA rules; other jurisdictions use other rules.

 

[Tantalum]

how does Foreflight Logbook calculate flight times

The Foreflight log times are always heavily padded. I just go off Hobbes or a clock. Foreflight tries to be "smart" but in my experience adds a healthy 10% to 30% onto flight times. It also sometimes doesn't stop and will track my whole drive home. Other times the whole flight is missing.

It's an okay app, but not great.

 

[Huckster79]

I’d say it’s interesting to understand the why... but within reason I’d say it’s a bit of an equivalent to the theological discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

I by no means am advocating falsifying or fabricating anything, but in general use who has had the FAA mandate they reconcile their ForeFlight logs to Hobbs meters? Maybe a flight school during training it may be needed for the flight schools own sake... But for average joe pilot with full intentions of being accurate, accepts FF timer and it’s somehow a touch off, I just don’t see ticket loss in this pilots future.

 

[1SGBrokePilot]

I dont like the auto start stop feature in FF. I always manually start/stop once im actually rolling.

I thought I read somewhere that basically flight time starts with movement of the aircraft with the intent of and eventual flight.. I.e. cant get credit if you start up and taxi around but never take off. but.... if you start up and taxi around get held up for a while, but eventually depart, your flight time starts from the time the plane moved under its own power.

maybe a I read that, maybe its a mixed up combination of things in my brain.

 

[EdFred]

The Foreflight log times are always heavily padded. I just go off Hobbes or a clock. Foreflight tries to be "smart" but in my experience adds a healthy 10% to 30% onto flight times. It also sometimes doesn't stop and will track my whole drive home. Other times the whole flight is missing.

It's an okay app, but not great.

How dare you say anything less than stellar praises about ForeFlight!

 

[Deelee]

How's the saying go... "Log what you need...." there is more to it than that, but I forget...

 

[Huckster79]

How's the saying go... "Log what you need...." there is more to it than that, but I forget...

Fly when you can, log what you need...

 

[bluesky74656]

How's the saying go... "Log what you need...." there is more to it than that, but I forget...

Fly when you can, log what you need...

“File what you want, fly what you get, log what you need.”

 

[MU-2_Fan]

“File what you want, fly what you get, log what you need.”

And if anyone from the FAA brings up 61.59, "I know nothing"

 

[MBDiagMan]

I started MyFlightbook a long time ago and stopped using it. I then started using the one in my Foreflight for convenience, but it doesn’t, to my knowledge, record tailwheel or complex time so I stopped using it as well.

 

[snglecoil]

I started MyFlightbook a long time ago and stopped using it. I then started using the one in my Foreflight for convenience, but it doesn’t, to my knowledge, record tailwheel or complex time so I stopped using it as well.

It's a little confusing at first, but I understand why they did it the way they did. Under the logbook in FF, you have aircraft setup separately from the aircraft you setup in planning with all of your performance data. In that "logbook aircraft" section you will get the option to designate category/class, gear type (fixed, tricycle, conventional, retract, etc.), engine type, complex, high performance, pressurized, and even TAA. Then it automatically tracks that time based on the tail number in your log book.

As far as times go, I have always just edited what Foreflight says to match the hobbs time. I've have it automatically log the drive home a few too many times.

 

[Deelee]

log the drive home

Log it under ASEL - automobile, single engine, land. Furthermore:

• If you drive in fog and are looking only at the instruments (and if you live), then you can log instrument time.
• If you drive in fog from your driveway to your house, you can count the approach.
• If you drive in circles around a parking lot looking for a parking space, you can log the hold.

 

[RussR]

I started MyFlightbook a long time ago and stopped using it. I then started using the one in my Foreflight for convenience, but it doesn’t, to my knowledge, record tailwheel or complex time so I stopped using it as well.

There is no reason to have a column labeled "tailwheel" or "complex" in an electronic logbook. That Mooney in your avatar is always going to be a "complex" aircraft, so any time logged in it is automatically "complex". A piece of software can figure that out without you having to enter anything. If you need to know your total "complex" time, then generating a report is simple.

 

[Deelee]

There is no reason to have a column labeled "tailwheel" or "complex" in an electronic logbook

True. MyFlightBook automatically marks all hours flown in the Arrow as Complex.

 

[MBDiagMan]

There is no reason to have a column labeled "tailwheel" or "complex" in an electronic logbook. That Mooney in your avatar is always going to be a "complex" aircraft, so any time logged in it is automatically "complex". A piece of software can figure that out without you having to enter anything. If you need to know your total "complex" time, then generating a report is simple.

Wonderful! So where do I go in the Foreflight logbook to extract my tailwheel and complex hours? I haven’t found it and I have to extract that information twice a year. Once for each planes insurance.

 

[penaltyvectors]

Wonderful! So where do I go in the Foreflight logbook to extract my tailwheel and complex hours? I haven’t found it and I have to extract that information twice a year. Once for each planes insurance.

Logbook -> Reports -> Experience report. Each type of operation (tailwheel, hp, retract, etc) will be broken down under Characteristic.

 

[mcmanigle]

Thinking about switching from Pilot Pro to ForeFlight for logging. (No particular unhappiness with the former, but I use the latter for planning etc, so why not logging too?)

Question: I fly a plane that became a TAA after I started flying it. Is that something ForeFlight logs can handle? (I don’t think Pilot Pro does, and not handling it isn’t a dealbreaker; just curious.)

Also, before I make the switch, does anyone out there recommend *against* FF logs for any reason? I still use paper primary and am just a leisure pilot (may do commercial / multi someday soon, but no career aspirations). Electronic log is primarily for backup and currency calculations. I figure as long as a log system imports and exports data freely, it’ll work for my simple needs. Am I missing anything?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Also, before I make the switch, does anyone out there recommend *against* FF logs for any reason?

Only one. I don't want to feel tied to a particular EFB. I've been using MyFlightbook since 2006, 4 years before I started using Foreflight. At this point it is my only logbook.

if, as others suggest, FF's reports does not break down such things as complex, HP, tailwheel (as a non-user, I don't know) that would be another reason.

 

[mcmanigle]

Only one. I don't want to feel tied to a particular EFB. I've been using MyFlightbook since 2006, 4 years before I started using Foreflight. At this point it is my only logbook.

Very much agree with this, but anything with exports satisfies my trepidation here. (Especially because I export my log regularly to make pretty pictures, so even if the export feature somehow went away, I’d have a recent export.)

 

[John Collins]

Thinking about switching from Pilot Pro to ForeFlight for logging. (No particular unhappiness with the former, but I use the latter for planning etc, so why not logging too?)

Question: I fly a plane that became a TAA after I started flying it. Is that something ForeFlight logs can handle? (I don’t think Pilot Pro does, and not handling it isn’t a dealbreaker; just curious.)

Also, before I make the switch, does anyone out there recommend *against* FF logs for any reason? I still use paper primary and am just a leisure pilot (may do commercial / multi someday soon, but no career aspirations). Electronic log is primarily for backup and currency calculations. I figure as long as a log system imports and exports data freely, it’ll work for my simple needs. Am I missing anything?

The ForeFlight logging includes aircraft settings for 9 engine types, 8 gear types, complex, TAA, High performance, and Pressurized endorsements. The Web version supports import and export of data. It says:

Allowed file types: .csv, .tsv, and exports from electronic logbooks such as LogTenPro X, ZuluLog, and others.
Exported CSV files from many other logbook programs can be uploaded directly at plan.foreflight.com. Keep in mind that the fidelity of information can vary based on the original source's setup. Direct import may require adding information - such as aircraft details - in ForeFlight Logbook. We recommend using the template below for maximum detail.

 

[1000RR]

I use FF and you can do exports so using another e-method down the road shouldn't be a problem if desired. There are also "custom fields" for tracking purposes you can add if there's something you'd like to track but can't find where to track it in FF. FF does seem to always keep a little extra for time for my flights; I believe it is the fuel stop prior to taxing back to the hangar. I'm guessing it believes it's a full stop with some sort of delay is my guess. I always just manually enter in the Hobbs number regardless. For now I also keep a paper logbook. Not sure I'll continue doing both but for now it's just a habit. Paper makes me feel comfortable to always have something in hand (old school)... electronic makes me feel comfortable for the ease of totaling numbers and such.

 

[David Megginson]

Indeed, but should emphasize that this is the definition for civilian flight under FAA rules; other jurisdictions use other rules.

Basically the same in Canada. Flight time is start to stop — that's what the pilot puts in their logbook. Air time is wheels up to wheels down — that's what we put in the airplane's journey log and tech logs.

It's also an interesting problem for when you're calculating fuel burn. My approach is to take the total amount of fuel I just added to the plane, subtract 1 gal for each flight (to allow for startup and taxi), then divide what's left by the air time. So, for example, if I add 26.5 gallons to my Piper PA-28-161 and I've flown 3 flights totalling 3 hours air time since my last fill-up, I'll subtract 3 gallons for the three flights, then divide 23.5 / 3 to get 7.8 gph average fuel burn (that's pretty typical for when I'm operating at 75% power LOP-WOT).

 

[X3 Skier]

Started using the FF Logbook a while ago. Still haven’t added the data from my paper log but FF has a way to do that. Kind on interesting since all the previous time is Hobbs but recent stuff is as described in previous posts. I don’t intend to multiply everything by 1.3

Cheers