Tracking Centerline On Visual Approach - Conflicting Methods

Thomas Perrin said:
I see so you use the slip down final as an educational tool if I understand correctly. I also do low approaches and let them slip the airplane down the runway to get the hang of it. That works well and its quit fun too... you do need a longer runway though my home field is quite short for that.
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You are correct, its a teaching moment. Once they understand the relationship to aileron and rudder usage in a crosswind, then showing the crab and kick (or slip if you wish), makes more sense to them. Think of it as building blocks.
 
RoscoeT said:
Agree with everything you wrote, just wanted to mention that I think lots of newbies get confused by these "crab and kick" discussions because those who advocate crabbing down final are actually "crab and slipping" not crab and pure kicking. A minority of people (who fly trikes or heavies) advocate for purely kicking out the crab without slipping. Not something that should be taught to students flying 150s. When you get to the airlines, then do it their way. Light airplanes are different.
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Every jet I’ve flown requires ailerons and rudder for the “kick out” method. I’m still waiting to see when I get to be lazy and only use the rudder.
 
Jon Wilder said:
Other way around (pre-solo student, NOT questioning CFI, but questioning why my non-CFI friend feels so strongly against the method my CFI is teaching me).

For clarification...I'm not questioning my CFI. As a matter of fact, I PREFER his method of side slip to centerline. My issue is when I fly with my pilot friend, who is NOT a CFI, the second he sees me start to input the aileron, he's hammering me to NOT use aileron on approach, and I cannot for the life of me figure out WHY he's so strongly against the method I'm being taught.
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If you decide to continue flying with your friend, I suggest that you first have a conversation with him along these lines: "I know you're a very experienced pilot, but I really need to practice doing things the way my instructor is teaching, at least until I pass my checkride. Until then, I'm concerned that trying to learn conflicting ways of doing things will be confusing and counterproductive."
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Every jet I’ve flown requires ailerons and rudder for the “kick out” method. I’m still waiting to see when I get to be lazy and only use the rudder.
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I'm not an airline pilot but have seen plenty of airliners straight kick it out without getting a wing down. Not much clearance on lots of them.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Bank angle and aileron input are two different things.
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I assume you're referring to the use of ailerons because of yaw/roll coupling, but if the wings are level it's not a slip - even if the ailerons are used. So I give you that it may not be rudder alone, but it's also not the same thing as what we do in GA aircraft where the bank angle of the slip is one of the components needed to align the airplane and eliminate drift.
 
Every hour of help you get from your friend is probably going to cost you two hours of additional flight training with your CFI to get your certificate. Save your time and money and focus on learning how to fly.
 
RoscoeT said:
I assume you're referring to the use of ailerons because of yaw/roll coupling, but if the wings are level it's not a slip - even if the ailerons are used. So I give you that it may not be rudder alone, but it's also not the same thing as what we do in GA aircraft where the bank angle of the slip is one of the components needed to align the airplane and eliminate drift.
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I never said it was a slip. I just said that this dudes friend is full of crap. There is no such thing as only using rudder and controlling an airplane for landing, not even when it’s the much referred to kick out method. Aileron is still used. Call it what you want but aileron input is required.
 
It sounds as if you're a student pilot and your friend is letting you grab some unloggable stick time in his plane or a plane he's renting. You have to realize that his "coaching" is worth what you're payng for it--nothing. It may, in fact, be costing you if you let his coaching detract from the training you're paying for with a CFI who will have to break you of any bad habits you pick up. I've flown with some people who flew pretty poorly (I'm not a CFI) and if they were the PIC, it was the last time I flew with them unless I was the PIC. I might have suggested some additional training from a CFI but even though I've been flying for over 40 years, it's not my place to instruct. I'm the designated checkout pilot for glider towing for our club and the hardest thing I've had to do is tell a pilot he doesn't have the basic skills we're looking for in a tow pilot. Whether or not he/she takes that to heart and hires a CFI is up to them but their checkout is over at that point.
 
Domenick said:
Personally, I use both techniques in my Warrior, crab (forward slip) and low-wing (side slip), depending on my mood/conditions.
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All good, but a crab is not a slip, forward or side. I'm not sure if that's what you were saying. If crabbing for crosswind, you should be coordinated. Of course you might also combine forward and side slips to lose altitude and maintain centerline...... Just do the needful.
 
Your CFI is teaching you the "sideslip" method for wind correction when on final (Bank into the crosswind to correct for drift, align nose to runway with rudder.) There is nothing wrong with this, and has advantages you have noted. There is another method, which simply involves crabbing into the wind in a wings level attitude until just before landing, where you would transition to the sideslip method. I think many if not most experienced pilots use the latter method for simplicity and comfort during most of the final approach, but the transition from crab to sideslip requires additional practice. Either way, you have to use all the controls to put the plane into the correct attitude.
 
RoscoeT said:
if the wings are level it's not a slip
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A slip occurs whenever the relative wind and longitudinal axis are not aligned. The inertia of a typical passenger jet prevents wind drift when the longitudinal axis is aligned with the runway (think of a bowling ball getting hit by a gust of wind). Little to no bank is necessary to prevent drift even if the flare is prolonged due to floating. But there is indeed a yaw-roll couple (like you suggested) as well as sideslip-induced roll (contrary to what you suggested) so the ailerons are very necessary.
 
Jon Wilder said:
questioning why my non-CFI friend feels so strongly against the method my CFI is teaching me
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Because he's a dumba**.

Once upon a time he probably had an instructor tell him to use his feet on an approach, probably because he was trying to drive the airplane like a car, and he took that and ran with it, played a game of telephone in his own mind, and turned it into "no ailerons on approach".
 
A. Airbus. Kick out at last second. Any earlier and it just trims you out of that condition.

b. Carrier planes ashore. Crab to touchdown and use footrests to steer. Much like the famed Ercoupe.
 
Jon Wilder said:
So my CFI states to track centerline, use aileron to control drift while using rudder to keep the nose aligned straight down the runway. Another pilot I fly with preaches "Don't use aileron on approach. Use only rudder."

I've tried both and honestly I have much better results doing it via the CFI's method than I do by the pilot friend's method. Plus, doing it via my CFI's method ensures that I have the nose pointed straight on touch down, which prevents side loading the gear.
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Hi.
You may be describing more than one flight phase?
Depending on what phase you are they can both be right.
If you are in visual conditions and prepared to land, short final ~200Ft AGL.. you should use the CFI's approach.
If you are in IMC or VMC established on a precision approach, and still far from landing, and not a lot of wind / drift the best approach for small correction is to use rudder input. Typically, unless you get behind the airplane you should Not need to use the ailerons, until short final and you have Xwind and visual.
Is it possible that you are talking about different phases?
 
EdFred said:
Quit flying with your friend.
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My thought exactly. If the friend can’t let him fly without telling him to change his method, which is being taught by a CFI. Stop flying with him.
 
Sounds like you are a student pilot, why are you flying with passengers?

Listen to you instructor. Sooner or later, steering with only the rudder might get you in trouble, especially if you get slow and too uncoordinated.
 
I think we have finally found something the PoA’ers agree on!
 
From the 152 I learned in, to the 545,000lb landing weight B773 to yes, even the Airbus...

Point the nose into the wind to control the drift down final, just like anyone would do when trying to maintain a constant ground track. That doesn't meas "use just the rudder" like the OP's misguided friend. TURN THE PLANE to adjust for the drift.

Transition to a slip for touchdown. I do it at about 50'. Some people may want to do it earlier.

Even the 777 can landing perfectly, without a crab, up into the 30kt+ xwind component.

Only once the winds get really howling do you need to land an underslung airliner in a crab/slip hybrid due to the engine clearance.

Any other technique for tricycle geared airplanes is just lazy piloting.
 
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mryan75 said:
My guess is your friend does a lot of instrument flying. Sounds to me like he’s telling you how to keep the needle centered on an ILS approach (for example). In that particular setting he’s right.
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Since you're responding to a student pilot, I feel the need to beg to differ or clarify. I think the only legitimate use of "rudder-only" is if a person is not proficient with making small adjustments in IMC and tends to overcorrect. For a person who is proficient and can make small adjustments, it can be his/her choice. Me, I stick with coordinated turns until I "can't". It's quicker, smoother, and more precise. By "until I can't", I mean when landing and needing to make independent aileron or rudder inputs such as in a crosswind situation.
 
Tools said:
A. Airbus. Kick out at last second. Any earlier and it just trims you out of that condition.
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It does? I've never noticed. I land wing low every crosswind. Only when the wind is really blowing do I need to leave some of the crab in, as well.
 
Well, auto trims. Wont let ya slip forever! Not noticeable unless you do it waaay out on final. Played around in the sim once.
 
Rex Kramer said:
It does? I've never noticed. I land wing low every crosswind. Only when the wind is really blowing do I need to leave some of the crab in, as well.
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Exactly. All that fly by wire stuff really confuses some folks. Underneath the magic is an airplane that requires a pilot. There are some differences but landing in a crosswind is not one of them.
 
Tools said:
Well, auto trims. Wont let ya slip forever! Not noticeable unless you do it waaay out on final. Played around in the sim once.
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Way out on final the airplane is in a different control law than in the flare. Furthermore there is no automatic yaw trim if the autopilot is off. You can fly uncoordinated to your hearts content.

you probably noticed the rudder trim switch is the only one that exists. That’s because with the AP off you have to trim it manually.

all this is based on the 320 family.
 
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noahfong said:
Since you're responding to a student pilot, I feel the need to beg to differ or clarify. I think the only legitimate use of "rudder-only" is if a person is not proficient with making small adjustments in IMC and tends to overcorrect. For a person who is proficient and can make small adjustments, it can be his/her choice. Me, I stick with coordinated turns until I "can't". It's quicker, smoother, and more precise. By "until I can't", I mean when landing and needing to make independent aileron or rudder inputs such as in a crosswind situation.
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Coordinated 2-degree turns? I guess that’s one way of doing it.
 
Jon Wilder said:
So my CFI states to track centerline, use aileron to control drift while using rudder to keep the nose aligned straight down the runway. Another pilot I fly with preaches "Don't use aileron on approach. Use only rudder."

I've tried both and honestly I have much better results doing it via the CFI's method than I do by the pilot friend's method. Plus, doing it via my CFI's method ensures that I have the nose pointed straight on touch down, which prevents side loading the gear.

Yet when I fly with my pilot friend (said friend has had his certificated for well over 40 years and has been an everyday flyer for many years), he absolutely swears by "no aileron, only rudder on approach". I will also add that this pilot is an avid taildragger pilot, and thus this may very well be something he picked up way back when he learned to fly tailwheel.

So which is it? No aileron, only rudder on approach? Or aileron to control drift and rudder to keep the nose pointed straight?
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I would say both techniques are poor, but if in doubt, listen to your CFI first. If you use aileron only, you will end up zig zagging across the final approach course due to adverse yaw. Rudder-only is sometimes used to make tiny corrections when flying an ILS, but I still consider it a poor technique. Why not make small coordinated turns? They will be much smoother, your passengers will appreciate it, and you will avoid the zig zag course through the final. If you haven't seen adverse yaw, ask your CFI to demonstrate it. It is quite eye opening.
 
mryan75 said:
Didn’t say it wasn’t possible. I just can’t fathom why on earth you would do it.
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Let's see... It's quicker, smoother, more precise... Not to mention, coordinated. But, hey - if none of that matters to you...
 
noahfong said:
Let's see... It's quicker, smoother, more precise... Not to mention, coordinated. But, hey - if none of that matters to you...
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You clearly don’t get it. Is there such a thing as an uncoordinated 2-degree turn? This is truly one of the more ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.
 
sarangan said:
Why not make small coordinated turns?
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I’m scratching my head a bit. Can you really make a perceptibly uncoordinated turn of less than 5 degrees? I think really either yoke or rudder-only is fine, depending on the situation (in windy or turbulent conditions perhaps rudder-only won’t get the job done). I personally make slight corrections on the yoke for the most part, and if it’s maybe a degree or two I’ll use a tap of rudder. But it seems to me that if the corrections you have to make are big enough that you have to make coordinated turns lest your passengers are uncomfortable, ya might need a bit of refining on your final approach technique? I dunno. I’m trying to understand.
 
mryan75 said:
You clearly don’t get it. Is there such a thing as an uncoordinated 2-degree turn? This is truly one of the more ridiculous things I’ve ever heard.
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Yes, there is such a thing. And, yes, that's what will happen with a rudder-only or aileron-only turn. Of ANY size.
 
mryan75 said:
I’m scratching my head a bit. Can you really make a perceptibly uncoordinated turn of less than 5 degrees?
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Absolutely, I guess you've never flown a plane with tons of adverse yaw?
 
mryan75 said:
I’m scratching my head a bit. Can you really make a perceptibly uncoordinated turn of less than 5 degrees? I think really either yoke or rudder-only is fine, depending on the situation (in windy or turbulent conditions perhaps rudder-only won’t get the job done). I personally make slight corrections on the yoke for the most part, and if it’s maybe a degree or two I’ll use a tap of rudder. But it seems to me that if the corrections you have to make are big enough that you have to make coordinated turns lest your passengers are uncomfortable, ya might need a bit of refining on your final approach technique? I dunno. I’m trying to understand.
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This is something I demonstrate to students early on. Slow down to approach speed, quickly bank the airplane (with only ailerons) and carefully watch the nose. The nose will momentarily yaw in the opposite direction before steering in the right direction. This is due to adverse yaw. The typical tendency of pilots is to increase the bank to offset the adverse yaw. But by that time, the adverse yaw would have subsided, and the increased bank will cause the airplane to overshoot the intended heading. Now the pilot will have to bank in the opposite direction to get back on course. The result is a zigzag path down final.
 
mryan75 said:
...In other words crab it down final. No need to have the longitudinal axis of the plane be aligned with the runway 3 miles out.
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Yea, I think that's all the old guy is trying to teach you but maybe he's not so good at explaining it. Most of the time when you are in flight the aircraft's nose does not align with it's track across the ground unless the wind is dead calm or you are exactly aligned with it. The only time you force them to be the same is when you're landing and so, how far out do you start doing that? How about a crosswind takeoff? Do you climb out in a slip to keep the nose aligned with the runway? No, there would be no purpose in that. You're CFI is just teaching you to align the nose further out so you get more practice at it and don't have to figure it all out in the last two and a half seconds before you touch down. That's normal. You're friend is teaching you to stay coordinated. If you are making an approach in turbulence such as through some rotors with violent gusts or wind shear you don't want to be in an uncoordinated slip cranking on the ailerons all dirty and slow a mile out. That's probably all he's trying to tell you.
 
sarangan said:
Now the pilot will have to bank in the opposite direction to get back on course. The result is a zigzag path down final.
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Which is why I said that if you’re doing exactly what you describe, you might need a little work on your technique. We’re talking about minor corrections, not a standard rate turn. If you’re having to make such large aileron inputs on final, then clearly you need more practice. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but the idea of a coordinated 2-degree turn is absurd to me.
 
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mryan75 said:
Which is why I said that if you’re doing exactly what you describe, you might need a little work on your technique. We’re talking about minor corrections, not a standard rate turn. If you’re having to make such large aileron inputs on final, then clearly you need more practice. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but the idea of a coordinated 2-degree turn is absurd to me.
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Coordinated turns and standard-rate turns have nothing to do with each other.
 
sarangan said:
Coordinated turns and standard-rate turns have nothing to do with each other.
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I didn't say they did. What I'm saying is, minor corrections on final to keep the needle centered shouldn't require a coordinated turn. It isn't a 20-degree bank. It's a slight movement of the wrist. It's not a turn, it's an adjustment. I'm still searching for any logic in the 2-degree coordinated turn on final.
 
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