Tracking Centerline On Visual Approach - Conflicting Methods

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Jon Wilder

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So my CFI states to track centerline, use aileron to control drift while using rudder to keep the nose aligned straight down the runway. Another pilot I fly with preaches "Don't use aileron on approach. Use only rudder."

I've tried both and honestly I have much better results doing it via the CFI's method than I do by the pilot friend's method. Plus, doing it via my CFI's method ensures that I have the nose pointed straight on touch down, which prevents side loading the gear.

Yet when I fly with my pilot friend (said friend has had his certificated for well over 40 years and has been an everyday flyer for many years), he absolutely swears by "no aileron, only rudder on approach". I will also add that this pilot is an avid taildragger pilot, and thus this may very well be something he picked up way back when he learned to fly tailwheel.

So which is it? No aileron, only rudder on approach? Or aileron to control drift and rudder to keep the nose pointed straight?
 
Are u talking instrument approach?
 
There is a reason one is a CFI and the other isn't. When I was instructing, I had more trouble from students flying with friends that were showing them conflicting techniques.

And it doesn't matter what you are flying, crosswinds require both ailerons and rudder.
 
Tracking lateral navigation on an approach, especially close in when it’s sensitive like 0.3 RNP or an ILS, I use rudder only for correction. The idea is if you also use ailerons, folks have a tendency to over correct. My instrument CFI taught me the rudder only technique. Bracketing (I.e. bigger movements like 10* and 5* banks) works further out; I don’t like it close in. Also, visual or not, I’m in a crab until 15 AGL when I kick it out, straightening the nose for landing.
 
kaiser said:
Tracking lateral navigation on an approach, especially close in when it’s sensitive like 0.3 RNP or an ILS, I use rudder only for correction.....
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yup. massive difference between minor corrections on an instrument approach and a visual approach.
 
Sorry...forgot to clarify. Visual Approach. If the admins see this, can we add "Visual Approach" to the thread title?
 
luvflyin said:
Google ‘side slip’
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I'm aware of side slips. I do use them with the CFI and am actually quite good at using them to track centerline. They also work well for final approach overshoot. I can also see where they would aid in crosswind landings as it would make it natural to dip the upwind wing into the wind while keeping the nose aligned with the rudder. This is the technique demonstrated by my CFI.

However, every single time I fly with my pilot friend (the non-CFI), I go to use the exact technique my CFI showed me (side slip basically) and he's always hammering down with "NO AILERONS ON APPROACH"...he feels extremely strongly about it...so I'm trying to figure out exactly WHY he feels strongly about not using ailerons on approach. The ONLY reason I can think of is increased load factor = increase in stall speed, but we're coming in at 1.3 Vs0 and it's not like I'm using a ton of aileron in the first place.
 
Jon Wilder said:
I'm aware of side slips. I do use them with the CFI and am actually quite good at using them to track centerline. They also work well for final approach overshoot. I can also see where they would aid in crosswind landings as it would make it natural to dip the upwind wing into the wind while keeping the nose aligned with the rudder. This is the technique demonstrated by my CFI.

However, every single time I fly with my pilot friend (the non-CFI), I go to use the exact technique my CFI showed me (side slip basically) and he's always hammering down with "NO AILERONS ON APPROACH"...he feels extremely strongly about it...so I'm trying to figure out exactly WHY he feels strongly about not using ailerons on approach. The ONLY reason I can think of is increased load factor = increase in stall speed, but we're coming in at 1.3 Vs0 and it's not like I'm using a ton of aileron in the first place.
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How experienced are you?
 
Please listen to your CFI. Look up “law of primacy” if you don’t know what that is. It’s good that you’re asking why there is a discrepancy; It’s because your CFI is teaching you the correct way to learn to fly. Hopefully enough posts here point that out so you don’t question him/her on this point further (it’s ok to question, but you got your answer, move on). If you can’t let it go, maybe challenge your friend and ask him why no one teaches his method.
 
Jon Wilder said:
I'm aware of side slips. I do use them with the CFI and am actually quite good at using them to track centerline. They also work well for final approach overshoot. I can also see where they would aid in crosswind landings as it would make it natural to dip the upwind wing into the wind while keeping the nose aligned with the rudder. This is the technique demonstrated by my CFI.

However, every single time I fly with my pilot friend (the non-CFI), I go to use the exact technique my CFI showed me (side slip basically) and he's always hammering down with "NO AILERONS ON APPROACH"...he feels extremely strongly about it...so I'm trying to figure out exactly WHY he feels strongly about not using ailerons on approach. The ONLY reason I can think of is increased load factor = increase in stall speed, but we're coming in at 1.3 Vs0 and it's not like I'm using a ton of aileron in the first place.
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A very typical way to do it is crab on final and then go into the side slip a little before the flare. So you’re tracking the center line with heading while staying coordinated until kicking into the side slip to land. Now if things are changing out yonder there on final I would disagree with him to use only rudder. Coordinated turns are just fine out there. Making small heading changes out there with uncoordinated turns is unnecessary. I think maybe you are trying to stay tracking the centerline and staying nose aligned with it a lot farther out than is necessary or desired.
 
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TCABM said:
How experienced are you?
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Not sure why this is relevant. The point of my post is to sort out a conflict of information being fed to me by two VERY experienced pilots, and one pilot is discrediting the method of the other pilot.
 
Your CFI is teaching
You Pilot friend is likely flying passengers or perhaps larger aircraft.

The CFI is teaching you how to do the side slip and keep the airplane straight with the runway. Is also very useful in strong crosswinds because often the winds are stronger a bit higher, if you can hold it straight on the approach then there is a very good chance you can land it without losing directional control. If you can’t hold it straight, a successful landing is questionable.

The Crab method is more comfortable and feels more natural to non-pilots. Also some long wing or low wing aircraft may have issues with the slip method.

Ultimate answer why are you doing which way? What are you trying to accomplish? I.e. maintain, build your piloting skills, or make a comfortable approach for your passenger or protect wingtip, or engines.

Brian
CFIIIG/ASEL
 
Whenever the plane is not following the line that you want it needs to be turned back to where you need it to go. Proper turns require aileron & rudder inputs. I really try not to over think the approach but just use the inputs I need to be stable while staying on speed and lined up properly. Slips and crabs are sometimes employed in the mix.

My experimental airplane requires a lot of left rudder on take-off because the engine rotation is not like certified aircraft. People have asked how I know what rudder to use in different planes. The answer ... whichever one gives me the result I need. Same with the approach. Use all the controls as you need to.
 
EdFred said:
Whether visual or instrument (especially instrument) I fly only a heading to keep the PLANE on the centerline, and don't worry about the alignment of the nose and the runway. So in a crab, until I break out, or if visual about 200-300' AGL, then I maintain centerline with a slip using BOTH aileron and rudder.
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:yeahthat:
 
Jon Wilder said:
I'm aware of side slips. I do use them with the CFI and am actually quite good at using them to track centerline. They also work well for final approach overshoot. I can also see where they would aid in crosswind landings as it would make it natural to dip the upwind wing into the wind while keeping the nose aligned with the rudder. This is the technique demonstrated by my CFI.

However, every single time I fly with my pilot friend (the non-CFI), I go to use the exact technique my CFI showed me (side slip basically) and he's always hammering down with "NO AILERONS ON APPROACH"...he feels extremely strongly about it...so I'm trying to figure out exactly WHY he feels strongly about not using ailerons on approach. The ONLY reason I can think of is increased load factor = increase in stall speed, but we're coming in at 1.3 Vs0 and it's not like I'm using a ton of aileron in the first place.
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Perhaps your friends doesn’t have any idea what they are talking about. He could have been doing it wrong for forty years. I’m betting you should listen to your instructor.
 
Jon Wilder said:
Not sure why this is relevant. The point of my post is to sort out a conflict of information being fed to me by two VERY experienced pilots, and one pilot is discrediting the method of the other pilot.
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Well, if you’re a pre-solo student flying with somebody else and questioning your instructor, that’s a lot different than am instrument upgrade trying to discern technique.
 
TCABM said:
Well, if you’re a pre-solo student flying with somebody else and questioning your instructor, that’s a lot different than am instrument upgrade trying to discern technique.
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Other way around (pre-solo student, NOT questioning CFI, but questioning why my non-CFI friend feels so strongly against the method my CFI is teaching me).

For clarification...I'm not questioning my CFI. As a matter of fact, I PREFER his method of side slip to centerline. My issue is when I fly with my pilot friend, who is NOT a CFI, the second he sees me start to input the aileron, he's hammering me to NOT use aileron on approach, and I cannot for the life of me figure out WHY he's so strongly against the method I'm being taught.
 
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Machines such as Airplanes and motorcycles are kinda funny.

You can operate them lots of different ways and still achieve similar results. (Not necessarily the same.)

They’re way more forgiving of certain things than we are traditionally taught. Totally unforgiving of few things.

An operator of either vehicle can do things that physics and practice indicates is “wrong” and still not die.

That’s all there is to it, IMO.
 
Jon Wilder said:
Other way around (pre-solo student, NOT questioning CFI, but questioning why my non-CFI friend feels so strongly against the method my CFI is teaching me).

For clarification...I'm not questioning my CFI. As a matter of fact, I PREFER his method of side slip to centerline. My issue is when I fly with my pilot friend, who is NOT a CFI, the second he sees me start to input the aileron, he's hammering me to NOT use aileron on approach, and I cannot for the life of me figure out WHY he's so strongly against the method I'm being taught.
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Can’t help you understand your buddy’s thought process, he should be able to back up the technique he is correcting you on.

I would suggest reading about intentional slips the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook as you will be required to perform a slip to landing as part of your check ride, and slips require use of both aileron and rudder.

I’m curious if you’ve discussed the flying with a buddy with your CFI. While it may seem like a good idea, your buddy is trying to undo things the CFI is teaching you. That generally is not conducive to efficient progress.
 
You need to use all the controls. Ailerons are primary for moving the airplane left and right. Rudder is primary for alignment. However, everything is, as one of the computer design guys would say, "Deeply Intertwingled." If you move the ailerons, you're going to have to move the rudder to maintain coordination (or alignment, depending on what you are trying to do). If you step on the rudder to keep the longitudinal axis aligned, you're going to have to counter it with aileron to keep it from drifting off the centerline.

The rudder only theme is for making tiny corrections on things like instrument approaches. You can get away with this because the aircraft wants to fly coordinated anyhow and will roll into the turns for you anyhow (unless you fight it).
 
Jon Wilder said:
Other way around (pre-solo student, NOT questioning CFI, but questioning why my non-CFI friend feels so strongly against the method my CFI is teaching me).

For clarification...I'm not questioning my CFI. As a matter of fact, I PREFER his method of side slip to centerline. My issue is when I fly with my pilot friend, who is NOT a CFI, the second he sees me start to input the aileron, he's hammering me to NOT use aileron on approach, and I cannot for the life of me figure out WHY he's so strongly against the method I'm being taught.
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Let him know you're continuing to practice what your instructor is telling you what to do so you can establish the habits necessary to satisfy your instructor and pass the check ride. The instructor probably knows what the local DPE wants.

Later in your career and you're actually PIC, tell him to just look out the window and at the pretty fields.
 
I'm confused - are you asking about tracking the runway for the entire final approach, or just the last moments of a x-wind landing where you must align the airplane with no drift for touchdown? I've never heard of anyone flying all the way down a visual final using only the rudder to maintain runway track. The reason I'm confused is that you cannot maintain track AND alignment down final in a x-wind with rudder only. I can't think of any reason why anyone would be so passionate about skidding the airplane around on final with rudder only and no aileron. You are actually making tiny turns in maintaining a flight path when winds are gusty and upsetting the flight path. Turns large or small are best performed with aileron. Your friend has weird ideas about flying. Lots of pilots do, doesn't matter how long they've been flying. Time just makes you more stubborn.
 
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While you are in training, do it the way your CFI indicates. That will get you to the checkride sooner. After earning your certificate, do it any way you want.

When on final, tracking the centerline, you are flying a course. Your heading is irrelevant until touchdown

Personally, I use both techniques in my Warrior, crab (forward slip) and low-wing (side slip), depending on my mood/conditions. Sometimes, I'll start with a side slip to test the crosswind. If I can hold it easily, I'll continue. If the plane is rockin' & rollin' due to turbulence or variable wind, I'll transition to crab, then kick out in the flare where the winds are generally light due to ground friction..
 
Jon Wilder said:
My issue is when I fly with my pilot friend, who is NOT a CFI, the second he sees me start to input the aileron, he's hammering me to NOT use aileron on approach, and I cannot for the life of me figure out WHY he's so strongly against the method I'm being taught.
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Tell your friend to shut up. He's interfering with what your CFI is teaching.

What you say your friend is saying doesn't make sense. You can't land an airplane (properly) with only rudder. Either you aren't relating what he's saying very well or he isn't explaining it to you well. He's not a CFI and is unable to get you to understand the technique he prefers. He also doesn't understand the difference between techniques and procedures.

There are more than one way to do most things in aviation. The method that you use is a technique. People who use other techniques aren't necessarily wrong.

A few other comments.

A visual approach is an IFR procedure. I don't think that's what you're asking about here.

Don't correct an overshoot with a slip. Keep the airplane in coordinated flight. An accelerated slipping/skidding stalls can result from trying to correct an overshoot in an uncoordinated condition. Track the centering by making coordinated turns to adjust your ground track.

The techniques diverge as you get close to the runway and into the flare. They are described in the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook, Chapter 9. As your CFI, and your friend, to show you where their techniques are described in the AFH.
 
In a crosswind landing I teach to keep the airplane crabbed on final until the flare and then "kick the crab out" and go into a slip. Being crabbed on final does NOT mean you don't use aileron, you should be correcting for everything with coordinated use of aileron and rudder. The only time you're not coordinated, is when you're in the sideslip. As a rule of thumb I tell student that once in the slip you typically need half the aileron deflection hat your crab angle i.e. if you had an 10 deg crab angle on final, you might need 5 degrees of aileron once in the slip.
I've known some instructors to teach to get into the slip much earlier, like flying the whole final in a sideslip. I am not a huge fan of that technique as I'd rather be in coordinated flight as long as possible but it's probably a matter of personal preferences.
As for not using aileron at all... I don't really understand that and I would not recommend it.

Best !
 
how much actually flying time, PiC, does this friend have, actually @ the controls? There are a lot of opinions until you give them the yoke and say 'show me'. Not saying I'd want to do that @ least in my plane, especially w/the winds we've had this spring.
 
Jon Wilder said:
However, every single time I fly with my pilot friend (the non-CFI), I go to use the exact technique my CFI showed me (side slip basically) and he's always hammering down with "NO AILERONS ON APPROACH"...he feels extremely strongly about it...so I'm trying to figure out exactly WHY he feels strongly about not using ailerons on approach. The ONLY reason I can think of is increased load factor = increase in stall speed, but we're coming in at 1.3 Vs0 and it's not like I'm using a ton of aileron in the first place.
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Stop flying with your pilot friend until you have your certificate.
 
Thomas Perrin said:
In a crosswind landing I teach to keep the airplane crabbed on final until the flare and then "kick the crab out" and go into a slip. Being crabbed on final does NOT mean you don't use aileron, you should be correcting for everything with coordinated use of aileron and rudder. The only time you're not coordinated, is when you're in the sideslip. As a rule of thumb I tell student that once in the slip you typically need half the aileron deflection hat your crab angle i.e. if you had an 10 deg crab angle on final, you might need 5 degrees of aileron once in the slip.
I've known some instructors to teach to get into the slip much earlier, like flying the whole final in a sideslip. I am not a huge fan of that technique as I'd rather be in coordinated flight as long as possible but it's probably a matter of personal preferences.
As for not using aileron at all... I don't really understand that and I would not recommend it.
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Agree with everything you wrote, just wanted to mention that I think lots of newbies get confused by these "crab and kick" discussions because those who advocate crabbing down final are actually "crab and slipping" not crab and pure kicking. A minority of people (who fly trikes or heavies) advocate for purely kicking out the crab without slipping. Not something that should be taught to students flying 150s. When you get to the airlines, then do it their way. Light airplanes are different.
 
Thomas Perrin said:
In a crosswind landing I teach to keep the airplane crabbed on final until the flare and then "kick the crab out" and go into a slip. Being crabbed on final does NOT mean you don't use aileron, you should be correcting for everything with coordinated use of aileron and rudder. The only time you're not coordinated, is when you're in the sideslip. As a rule of thumb I tell student that once in the slip you typically need half the aileron deflection hat your crab angle i.e. if you had an 10 deg crab angle on final, you might need 5 degrees of aileron once in the slip.
I've known some instructors to teach to get into the slip much earlier, like flying the whole final in a sideslip. I am not a huge fan of that technique as I'd rather be in coordinated flight as long as possible but it's probably a matter of personal preferences.
As for not using aileron at all... I don't really understand that and I would not recommend it.

Best !
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I don't like starting students with the crab and kick method, at least not at first. By flying in a side slip down final, I feel students get a better understanding of the control inputs, what they do, and why they are needed. I see a lot students having trouble envisioning what they need to do on the crab-kick, and some do the rudder kick part, but miss out on the aileron. In a slight crosswind they may even get away with it, enforcing bad habits or lack of understanding.

I will frequently search out 15-20 kt crosswinds to demonstrate, then have my students attempt, to fly all the way down the center of the runway maintaining centerline with a side slip. Once they get the hang of it, let them land. You can even show them how you can work the airplane from edge to edge of the runway using the cross controls.
 
Uh... there are people who use the rudder in flight? Whoda thunk.

I thought that was for taxiing and a last ditch maneuver in a dogfight.

Tools, carrier pilot.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I don't like starting students with the crab and kick method, at least not at first. By flying in a side slip down final, I feel students get a better understanding of the control inputs, what they do, and why they are needed. I see a lot students having trouble envisioning what they need to do on the crab-kick, and some do the rudder kick part, but miss out on the aileron. In a slight crosswind they may even get away with it, enforcing bad habits or lack of understanding.

I will frequently search out 15-20 kt crosswinds to demonstrate, then have my students attempt, to fly all the way down the center of the runway maintaining centerline with a side slip. Once they get the hang of it, let them land. You can even show them how you can work the airplane from edge to edge of the runway using the cross controls.
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I see so you use the slip down final as an educational tool if I understand correctly. I also do low approaches and let them slip the airplane down the runway to get the hang of it. That works well and its quit fun too... you do need a longer runway though my home field is quite short for that.
 
RoscoeT said:
Agree with everything you wrote, just wanted to mention that I think lots of newbies get confused by these "crab and kick" discussions because those who advocate crabbing down final are actually "crab and slipping" not crab and pure kicking. A minority of people (who fly trikes or heavies) advocate for purely kicking out the crab without slipping. Not something that should be taught to students flying 150s. When you get to the airlines, then do it their way. Light airplanes are different.
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Right I guess I should say crab and slip in the future ^^
 
Thomas Perrin said:
Right I guess I should say crab and slip in the future ^^
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It's funny to me pilots even argue over the difference between crabbing and slipping down final when in the end you're still transitioning to a slip before the wheels touch. Some people slip down the whole approach, some transition to a slip on short final, some transition over the fence, some transition 6" above the runway. It all ends the same, just depends on your preference, and skill/comfort level. I think it's better technique to crab down final and transition as you round out, but I do understand why student pilots are generally taught to slip down final since it gives them extended practice with the slip and reduces the workload during the round out. But with experience, pilots should not be bound to the "I was taught" mentality.
 
Jon Wilder said:
So my CFI states to track centerline, use aileron to control drift while using rudder to keep the nose aligned straight down the runway. Another pilot I fly with preaches "Don't use aileron on approach. Use only rudder."

I've tried both and honestly I have much better results doing it via the CFI's method than I do by the pilot friend's method. Plus, doing it via my CFI's method ensures that I have the nose pointed straight on touch down, which prevents side loading the gear.

Yet when I fly with my pilot friend (said friend has had his certificated for well over 40 years and has been an everyday flyer for many years), he absolutely swears by "no aileron, only rudder on approach". I will also add that this pilot is an avid taildragger pilot, and thus this may very well be something he picked up way back when he learned to fly tailwheel.

So which is it? No aileron, only rudder on approach? Or aileron to control drift and rudder to keep the nose pointed straight?
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My guess is your friend does a lot of instrument flying. Sounds to me like he’s telling you how to keep the needle centered on an ILS approach (for example). In that particular setting he’s right. But for a simple visual approach, I don’t agree with either of them. Aileron you maintain centerline. That’s it. In other words crab it down final. No need to have the longitudinal axis of the plane be aligned with the runway 3 miles out.
 
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