Tower at KHND nearly did me in yesterday

Nick Geber

Nick Geber

Pre-takeoff checklist
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How to handle this situation - love to hear some advice.

So yesterday was one of the busiest days I can remember at KHND. I was number 4 in line just to taxi to the runway - and when I got there I was number 5 or so in line. So, busy day. The tower controller was doing ground as well so he certainly had his hands full. I'm flying my 68 Cherokee 235 - just fueled up, nearly at gross weight with 3 adults and baggage.

Wind is 030 at about 10kts. Runways in use were 17L (5k ft) and 17R (6.5k ft). I couldn't understand why we were being directed to the runway with a tailwind but like a lemming just got in line with everyone else. Of course, get to the hold point for 17R and am directed to cross over and depart 17L, the short RW. Needless to say, a hairy takeoff to say the least and one that I'm not inclined to repeat. I should have refused the takeoff.

So - what would you folks have done? Refused the TO? Told the controller it should be 34 L/R? I'm sure he was waiting for a good time to change over but with so many aircraft in the line for both tax and TO it would have been a mess reversing the runway. What to do here?
 
Well, for one, don't tell the controller it should be 34. Ask to depart 34 due to the prevailing winds. There have been a few times in Gulfport where I've used the downwind runway due to traffic coming in on the instrument approaches. But, there's also 9,000 ft of runway there so it's not a huge deal. I can understand the pucker factor doing a downwind takeoff near gross, though I bet if you did the calc you probably still had a lot of margin.
 
Nick Geber said:
How to handle this situation - love to hear some advice.

So yesterday was one of the busiest days I can remember at KHND. I was number 4 in line just to taxi to the runway - and when I got there I was number 5 or so in line. So, busy day. The tower controller was doing ground as well so he certainly had his hands full. I'm flying my 68 Cherokee 235 - just fueled up, nearly at gross weight with 3 adults and baggage.

Wind is 030 at about 10kts. Runways in use were 17L (5k ft) and 17R (6.5k ft). I couldn't understand why we were being directed to the runway with a tailwind but like a lemming just got in line with everyone else. Of course, get to the hold point for 17R and am directed to cross over and depart 17L, the short RW. Needless to say, a hairy takeoff to say the least and one that I'm not inclined to repeat. I should have refused the takeoff.

So - what would you folks have done? Refused the TO? Told the controller it should be 34 L/R? I'm sure he was waiting for a good time to change over but with so many aircraft in the line for both tax and TO it would have been a mess reversing the runway. What to do here?
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You had weather before calling ground/tower right? On initial call up state that the wind is out of limits for your departure and ask for a different runway.
 
Tell him you need a longer runway if you need a longer runway. What did your charts tell you you needed, and how does your normal performance compare to the charts?
 
It is always ok to tell the controller you cannot accept a particular runway for, well, almost any reason. It is also ok to request (demand?) a more appropriate runway. The caveat is that you might have to wait for a break in the traffic before the controller can get you out.

You are the pilot in command. If you don’t like a certain situation, get it resolved to your satisfaction.
 
7.66 kts tailwind, longer runway, an issue but likely not extremely critical. I am not familiar with all your performance, temps, everything else.

Yes, on initial call up is where I would ask for the other direction, not unheard of. They may tell you there could be a wait.

Some airports have a preferred direction to operate for a host of reasons. That may or may not be in play. Even looking at the forecast winds, could be a direction they wanted to be going.

Then if one rwy was longer, with that tailwind, you could of said you’d wait for that longer runway. You can always use the term ‘operational’ to buttress your request.
 
With all the population north of HND, I’d be willing to bet they have a “runway use” program established for the airport. If you don’t want to depart a runway with a tailwind, simply request a different runway. Personally for me (Velocity) a 10 kt tailwind wouldn’t have been an issue.
 
sourdough44 said:
7.66 kts tailwind, longer runway, an issue but likely not extremely critical. I am not familiar with all your performance, temps, everything else.
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I found a POH online for this type, and the performance charts end at 5kt tailwind. So in the OP's case, he was the test pilot.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Tell him you need a longer runway if you need a longer runway. What did your charts tell you you needed, and how does your normal performance compare to the charts?
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Great question. The 1968 POH is all of 54 pages and the charts are spartan, to say the least. It's also not charted with a 3 bladed prop which adds more front CG (which I have a lot of). Based on the charts for 50 ft obstacle no wind, I needed around 2k feet. Add 10% for every 2 knots of tailwind and increase 50% so around 3k ft. Usual gross rotate is around 75-80 MPH add 11.5 and rotate is 86.5-91.5MPH which is hair-raising for a Cherokee 235.
 
Lindberg said:
I found a POH online for this type, and the performance charts end at 5kt tailwind. So in the OP's case, he was the test pilot.
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Yes, and that's the last time I'll be doing that. BTW I can't find any reference to tailwind component in the 1968 C model POH
 
C39E62EA-3B9B-401C-B364-F7876680007E.png I thought that Cherokee 235 was a heavy hauler? I had heard it could carry 4 NFL linemen, bags, & full fuel??

I think this screenshot explains why they like 17 for departures.
 
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sourdough44 said:
I thought that Cherokee 235 was a heavy hauler? I had heard it could carry 4 NFL linemen, bags, & full fuel??
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Yes, It can. I had almost full fuel, 200lbs in the baggage compartment. Front seats were Pilot 265lbs and 190lbs and rear seat passenger 155lbs. Carrying about 70 gallons (capacity is 84). Run W&B before every flight
 
Nick Geber said:
Yes, and that's the last time I'll be doing that. BTW I can't find any reference to tailwind component in the 1968 C model POH
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Learning occurred without anyone getting hurt, and that's a good thing. But your thread title is unfair to ATC. They gave an instruction that was maybe ill-advised, but you accepted it, and you're PIC.
 
"Unable Runway 17L. Request 17R." Or, frankly, "Request 34L." You'll trade some taxi time and possibly a departure delay for un-aligning two layers of swiss cheese from the flight (runway length and tailwind).
 
Nick Geber said:
Great question. The 1968 POH is all of 54 pages and the charts are spartan, to say the least. It's also not charted with a 3 bladed prop which adds more front CG (which I have a lot of). Based on the charts for 50 ft obstacle no wind, I needed around 2k feet. Add 10% for every 2 knots of tailwind and increase 50% so around 3k ft. Usual gross rotate is around 75-80 MPH add 11.5 and rotate is 86.5-91.5MPH which is hair-raising for a Cherokee 235.
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See? You still had around 2kft of runway left. No sweat :D
 
Not sure asking for 34R or L would work for HND.
 
Lindberg said:
Learning occurred without anyone getting hurt, and that's a good thing. But your thread title is unfair to ATC. They gave an instruction that was maybe ill-advised, but you accepted it, and your PIC.
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You are correct
 
EdFred said:
Not sure asking for 34R or L would work for HND.
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Asking always works, it's the answer that may or may not work for the pilot. The OP mentioned lemmings. Hopefully, he would have faced an "unable runway 34, all we have for you today is 17L" based on his personal minimums rather than staying #5 in line to walk off the cliff. Sometimes, you cancel the flight because of unplanned maintenance, unforecast weather, or a runway closure. Add "Tower won't let me take off with a headwind" to the list. Taxi back to parking and wait for better conditions.
 
iamtheari said:
Asking always works, it's the answer that may or may not work for the pilot. The OP mentioned lemmings. Hopefully, he would have faced an "unable runway 34, all we have for you today is 17L" based on his personal minimums rather than staying #5 in line to walk off the cliff. Sometimes, you cancel the flight because of unplanned maintenance, unforecast weather, or a runway closure. Add "Tower won't let me take off with a headwind" to the list. Taxi back to parking and wait for better conditions.
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I generally ask for runways that exist at the airport. ;)

Funny lemmings were mentioned. OP said 34, and everyone else went along with it. :D
 
I think the tower might fail to recognize that some aircraft aren't Global Express sized and might have controllability issues with a strong tailwind, as well as performance issues. Its not just a performance issue taking off in e.g. a Luscombe with a substantial tail wind. That's why you have to ask tower, they may not 'get it'.

Since you were there yesterday and at the risk of creating a tangential discussion, what was/is going on with KHND requiring PPR via a series of NOTAMs?
 
EdFred said:
I generally ask for runways that exist at the airport. ;)

Funny lemmings were mentioned. OP said 34, and everyone else went along with it. :D
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Maybe your personal minimums are "runways that exist at the airport" but I'm free to set my own. :)
 
First, the tower did not nearly do you in. You are PIC, you are responsible for your airplanes performance and you need to have the situational awareness to ask yourself what are the risks prior to takeoff.
As mentioned, you could have asked for a different runway prior to taxi if you were using SA. You could have also opted for a short field takeoff configuration. When the take off roll was long, you could have closed the throttle and aborted the takeoff.

Fortunately it was just a learning experience and a mistake you will not likely make again.
 
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Tusayan said:
I think the tower might fail to recognize that some aircraft aren't Global Express sized and might have controllability issues with a strong tailwind, as well as performance issues. Its not just a performance issue taking off in e.g. a Luscombe with a substantial tail wind. That's why you have to ask tower, they may not 'get it'.

Since you were there yesterday and at the risk of creating a tangential discussion, what was/is going on with KHND requiring PPR via a series of NOTAMs?
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They have PPR's around big events. This weekend it was NCAA tourney and Taylor Swift
 
Thanks, it seems at this time of the year there are a lot of 'big events'. I think I'd just go elsewhere, that's obviously their intent. Next it'll be slots!
 
Clip4 said:
First, the tower did not nearly do you in. You are PIC, you are responsible for your airplanes performance and you need to have the situational awareness to ask yourself what are the risks prior to takeoff.
As mentioned, you could have asked for a different runway prior to taxi if you were using SA. You could have also opted for a short field takeoff configuration. When the take off roll was long, you could have closed the throttle and aborted the takeoff.

Fortunately it was just a learning experience and a mistake you will not likely make again.
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Yes, most certainly a learning experience and I got off the ground alright. Like all piloting events that don't go as I had planned, I do as much analysis as I can and make it a learning experience. I am anything but complacent. I'm also not afraid to put some of my less than stellar moments out there for community input. The only pilot that stops learning is a dead one.
 
iamtheari said:
Asking always works, it's the answer that may or may not work for the pilot. The OP mentioned lemmings. Hopefully, he would have faced an "unable runway 34, all we have for you today is 17L" based on his personal minimums rather than staying #5 in line to walk off the cliff. Sometimes, you cancel the flight because of unplanned maintenance, unforecast weather, or a runway closure. Add "Tower won't let me take off with a headwind" to the list. Taxi back to parking and wait for better conditions.
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Winds were sporty and almost directly across the runway at our airport Saturday. One learner decided to fly had a good time, and the other decided to wait for "better" weather (both licensed in other categories). Neither was right or wrong. :thumbsup:
 
Nick Geber said:
Great question. The 1968 POH is all of 54 pages and the charts are spartan, to say the least. It's also not charted with a 3 bladed prop which adds more front CG (which I have a lot of). Based on the charts for 50 ft obstacle no wind, I needed around 2k feet. Add 10% for every 2 knots of tailwind and increase 50% so around 3k ft. Usual gross rotate is around 75-80 MPH add 11.5 and rotate is 86.5-91.5MPH which is hair-raising for a Cherokee 235.
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I’m lost, why do you need to increase your rotation speed?
 
The initial taxi clearance should have been to a runway, either 17L or 17R. It sounds like you were expecting 17R. If that initial taxi clearance was to 17L, that was your first opportunity to negotiate something else.

"Unable 17L due to tailwind, request 17R [or 35L/R]".

If they changed your departure runway as you neared the front of the line for takeoff, then that's when you tell them you're unable and requires something that you can do.

Tell ATC "unable" is fun. Whenever possible, follow the "unable" with a request for something else that you can do.
 
Larry in TN said:
The initial taxi clearance should have been to a runway, either 17L or 17R. It sounds like you were expecting 17R. If that initial taxi clearance was to 17L, that was your first opportunity to negotiate something else.

"Unable 17L due to tailwind, request 17R [or 35L/R]".

If they changed your departure runway as you neared the front of the line for takeoff, then that's when you tell them you're unable and requires something that you can do.

Tell ATC "unable" is fun. Whenever possible, follow the "unable" with a request for something else that you can do.
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Yes, I was expecting 17R.
 
Nick Geber said:
Great question. The 1968 POH is all of 54 pages and the charts are spartan, to say the least. It's also not charted with a 3 bladed prop which adds more front CG (which I have a lot of). Based on the charts for 50 ft obstacle no wind, I needed around 2k feet. Add 10% for every 2 knots of tailwind and increase 50% so around 3k ft. Usual gross rotate is around 75-80 MPH add 11.5 and rotate is 86.5-91.5MPH which is hair-raising for a Cherokee 235.
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CG should have no effect on the discussion as long as it’s within limits, but the biggest part (to me) of my question is how does your actual performance compare to what the charts say? Book numbers mean nothing without context.

I’d suggest getting with an instructor to figure that out, and maybe to get some tailwind practice. 90-mph rotation shouldn’t be hair-raising in a Cherokee 235.
 
MauleSkinner said:
CG should have no effect on the discussion as long as it’s within limits, but the biggest part (to me) of my question is how does your actual performance compare to what the charts say? Book numbers mean nothing without context.

I’d suggest getting with an instructor to figure that out, and maybe to get some tailwind practice. 90-mph rotation shouldn’t be hair-raising in a Cherokee 235.
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I'm ahead of you lol. Already booked for this weekend.
 
Lindberg said:
Learning occurred without anyone getting hurt, and that's a good thing. But your thread title is unfair to ATC. They gave an instruction that was maybe ill-advised, but you accepted it, and you're PIC.
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Lindberg, I was in no way meaning to be unfair to the controllers at KHND. It's my home base, I fly alot from there and they do a great job - juggling tons of northbound traffic all converging through the "ridge" as well as dealing with keeping people away from the LAS bravo plus all of the other requests they get. The title was meant a little tongue in cheek but came out somewhat rude.
 
Has anyone mentioned density altitude yet? Seems that might've been more of a player here than a few kts of tailwind component.
 
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