Touch Screen Avionics are frustrating. (Get off my Lawn!)

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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I have this Garmin 175 that I really want to like but I can no longer force myself to like it.
In turbulence it is unusable and the lack of dedicated buttons for specific functions slows me way down.

On the 430, I have a procedure button that I click and I get a list, I turn a knob to the one I want.

On this, its a handful of clicks, Nothing is where it should intuitively be.
The last 3 days it has been 12G30 and its taking me 2-3 tried to get the airport entered.
Plus Seriously having the alphabet split across 2 screens and numbers on a third...

I would take a 430 over this thing.

OK rant over. Is this all "modern" avionics now?
Are there sub $10k, supported GPS out there that still have real buttons and knobs?
 
Avidyne has physical buttons. @Martin Pauly is the expert on them. @Radar Contact had them also.

The touchscreen system works well on the bigger screen 750. I have little experience with the smaller boxes, but I complained here once about the keyboard on the 650 and was told it was greatly improved in a software update. Possibly the 175 benefitted from the new keyboard as well... might check your firmware version.
 
Plus they have actual customer service. People you can call and will talk to you and help you. They don’t care if you’re a dealer or not.
 
We have a Garmin 480 for sale. Not super modern, but still button centric and will do WAAS and airways
 
I would have a very hard time going back to a 430. flew the other day and it was wicked bumpy, didn't seem to have any issues plugging things into the 650 touchscreen. don't know anything about the 175 but it does appear to have a knob. can't imagine spending several thousand bucks to get another touchscreen that also has a knob.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
OK I hadn't looked at Avidyne's stuff. It looks exactly like what I am after.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind one of their main people in the training department is nearby to us, Gary Reeves over near KLUD
 
I had a 12 hour XC in a 172 with a 650 (like yours but Nav/Comm/GPS). I hated it most of my trip. It took the first 8 hours or so to truly understand how to use it in the bumps. (I.e. bracing your fingers on the bezel… etc). By the end of my trip I felt fairly proficient in it (in bumps). Enough to be neutral on the product.

That being said… Avidyne looks way easier.
 
+1 for the Avidyne. I am scouring NTX for a used one to go in 44T as we speak.
 
Can't imagine anyone who's endured a touch screen in-flight thinking they are a great idea. It's what happens when non-users, regardless of title, design things.
 
Mxfarm said:
Can't imagine anyone who's endured a touch screen in-flight thinking they are a great idea. It's what happens when non-users, regardless of title, design things.
Click to expand...
I can't imagine anyone who's dialed a flight plan into a 430 with a spinny knob while trying to fly thinking that's a great idea :dunno:
 
I replaced a 430w with a 440. The 440 kept losing satellite lock and was uncomfortably hot to the touch. I really wanted to like it. Strangely the 430w kept satellite lock perfectly in the same tray the 440 kept losing it. I gave up on the 440 and still have a 430w.

The Garmin Gtn 650 I also found frustrating to use in turbulence. I was always hitting the wrong location on the touchscreen. It will be interesting to see how well the voice commands work on the xi series by Garmin. If they work well that may be better than a touchscreen or knob and button.
 
I love the higher resolution of the newer Dynon HDX screens. But, I think they were very wise to keep the functionality of the button and joysticks from the "classic" screens. I've always been a little skeptical of "touch-screen" in the cockpit. I find channelizing a KX-155 in bumpy IFR challenging sometimes.
 
Agreed, touch screen avionics really don't belong in airplanes. I prefer the Dynon efis to the Garmin because it has that nice ledge at the bottom to rest your hand on. My old KLN lacks in a lot of ways but I can really zoom through what I want to do since it only has buttons and knobs.
 
Jim K said:
Avidyne has physical buttons. @Martin Pauly is the expert on them. @Radar Contact had them also.

The touchscreen system works well on the bigger screen 750.
Click to expand...
It's true that on the Avidyne IFD I find myself using mostly the knobs and buttons in flight with even light turbulence, and that works better on the IFD than the touch screen.

As an instructor I've also had opportunities to fly with a GTN750, and while that lacks the many knobs and buttons, from what I can see it works fine in most situations. And you can do a lot of things on the 750 with voice commands, where you need neither the touchscreen nor the knobs/buttons.

@SixPapaCharlie - I would think carefully about if there are other things you want to change in your panel in the future. (E.g. PFD, autopilot)
If so, choosing a GPS which plays well with your overall future system is important.

- Martin
 
I hate touchscreens. I'm too young to be so jaded.. but the 650/750 and Xi, etc., I hate it. It's uncomfortable to balance your finger, unnatural to type the keys, and if there's any turbulence it's that much harder. I really wanted to like the GI-275 that they set up in the Duchess but I prefer the G5s in the other club planes, exactly because the 275 invokes touch

The 430/530 and G1000 are simple, intuitive, you have chapters and pages, buttons for obvious quick action things like PROC, FLT PLAN, etc.

I held onto my Blackberry for as long as I could for the same reason. I also hate the touchscreens in cars too and all the smudgyness that goes along with it

C'est la vie
 
PS - yes the 650/750 are nice as you can load airways.. but you can do that on the G1000 as well, and if you have bluetooth connectivity you can send stuff from your Foreflight straight into the 430/530 anyway
 
biggest pet peeve is the knob on the touchscreen doesn't actually change the frequency, it switches pages. So when you're intercepting the localizer and they hand you off to the tower you have to click the freq, THEN type it in or use the number.. it's an extra step over something that used to just be a quick turn of a knob. Okay now I'm done :)
 
Tantalum said:
I hate touchscreens. I'm too young to be so jaded.. but the 650/750 and Xi, etc., I hate it. It's uncomfortable to balance your finger, unnatural to type the keys, and if there's any turbulence it's that much harder. I really wanted to like the GI-275 that they set up in the Duchess but I prefer the G5s in the other club planes, exactly because the 275 invokes touch

The 430/530 and G1000 are simple, intuitive, you have chapters and pages, buttons for obvious quick action things like PROC, FLT PLAN, etc.

I held onto my Blackberry for as long as I could for the same reason. I also hate the touchscreens in cars too and all the smudgyness that goes along with it

C'est la vie
Click to expand...

Touchscreens in moving vehicles are kinda dumb, in my opinion. My sister's car had a touchscreen interface that controlled everything, even the radio. It was next to impossible to use because of the bumps unless you anchored your hand somewhere and changing stations was way more distracting than using the dials and buttons. You have to look at the thing the whole time to make sure you're doing it right, whereas with buttons and dials, you can feel for them and do it without taking your eyes off the road. I haven't ever had to use a touchscreen in a plane, but it would be extremely unpleasant in any type of turbulence if it's anything like the ones in cars.
 
FORANE said:
It will be interesting to see how well the voice commands work on the xi series by Garmin.
Click to expand...
I sure hope it works better than the Voice Recognition on my GMC pickup. Sometimes when I am bored I give it voice instructions just to see how badly it misinterprets what I say.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have this Garmin 175 that I really want to like but I can no longer force myself to like it.
In turbulence it is unusable and the lack of dedicated buttons for specific functions slows me way down.

On the 430, I have a procedure button that I click and I get a list, I turn a knob to the one I want.

On this, its a handful of clicks, Nothing is where it should intuitively be.
The last 3 days it has been 12G30 and its taking me 2-3 tried to get the airport entered.
Plus Seriously having the alphabet split across 2 screens and numbers on a third...

I would take a 430 over this thing.

OK rant over. Is this all "modern" avionics now?
Are there sub $10k, supported GPS out there that still have real buttons and knobs?
Click to expand...
You need a new plane. First it's alternator stuff. Now this. Things happen in three's. Get rid of it before it's too late. That being said, I feel your pain. I hate touch screens to. Almost as much as I hate the click, click.....click, enter, repeat gawd only knows how many times to get something entered in a 430. Other than GPS making so many more Approaches available where before there couldn't be and getting short cuts by being able to go direct I think GPS is the work of the devil. Oh yeah, you asked a question. No, I don't know of sub $10k practically anything GPS'y
 
All these people yelling about how awful touchscreens are while simultaneously crowing about how having Foreflight on their iPad strapped to their knee/yoke is a game-changer . . . :)
 
SkyChaser said:
Touchscreens in moving vehicles are kinda dumb, in my opinion. My sister's car had a touchscreen interface that controlled everything, even the radio. It was next to impossible to use because of the bumps unless you anchored your hand somewhere and changing stations was way more distracting than using the dials and buttons. You have to look at the thing the whole time to make sure you're doing it right, whereas with buttons and dials, you can feel for them and do it without taking your eyes off the road. I haven't ever had to use a touchscreen in a plane, but it would be extremely unpleasant in any type of turbulence if it's anything like the ones in cars.
Click to expand...
It's also less intuitive in cars. Volume, radio station, fan speed, temp, where it blows, should all be single action

In some cars you have to go to menu, then climate, then click the thing you want, then change that.. it's awful. Touchscreen volume is a downright abomination
 
None of my panel stuff is touchscreen but I've run into that problem on my iPad a few times. Part of it is IMO they're packing way too much functionality into foreflight now and when your only possible inputs are a tap or a long tap that can do a dozen different things depending on precise location and context it gets confusing.

IDK maybe it's an old fart thing and the kids growing up now with everything touchscreen won't have an issue. All these modern UIs seem to be throwing me for a loop- I used to be that kid who could divine how to use almost any gadget in a few moments with no instruction. Now I find myself lost in apps on my phone and unable to figure out how to do some simple thing. The change is a bit distressing.
 
SoonerAviator said:
All these people yelling about how awful touchscreens are while simultaneously crowing about how having Foreflight on their iPad strapped to their knee/yoke is a game-changer . . . :)
Click to expand...
Fair point, but the use case is different. Plus at least Foreflight uses a QWERTY keyboard. You're also not changing frequencies, loading and activating procedures, etc.
 
Tantalum said:
It's also less intuitive in cars. Volume, radio station, fan speed, temp, where it blows, should all be single action

In some cars you have to go to menu, then climate, then click the thing you want, then change that.. it's awful. Touchscreen volume is a downright abomination
Click to expand...

The touch volume controls in my new car (not located on the screen, but still a capacitive touch item) is very inefficient. Luckily, the steering wheel volume controls work well and are more convenient anyway.
 
Which is why I like the 430/530 with the Flight Stream. I use FF on the yoke, but that's as far as it goes. I would not like a touchscreen on the center stack, and I hate the click click click.. click click click. To me, it is the perfect set up.
 
Tantalum said:
Fair point, but the use case is different. Plus at least Foreflight uses a QWERTY keyboard. You're also not changing frequencies, loading and activating procedures, etc.
Click to expand...

No argument there, just think it's funny that they are often used to provide the same information but the panel-mounted item is the "problem".

cowman said:
None of my panel stuff is touchscreen but I've run into that problem on my iPad a few times. Part of it is IMO they're packing way too much functionality into foreflight now and when your only possible inputs are a tap or a long tap that can do a dozen different things depending on precise location and context it gets confusing.

IDK maybe it's an old fart thing and the kids growing up now with everything touchscreen won't have an issue. All these modern UIs seem to be throwing me for a loop- I used to be that kid who could divine how to use almost any gadget in a few moments with no instruction. Now I find myself lost in apps on my phone and unable to figure out how to do some simple thing. The change is a bit distressing.
Click to expand...

I think the problem is that they try to add so many shortcuts for features that you have to use it every day to truly get proficient. Those shortcuts may be for items you didn't use in the first place, so when they get accidentally activated it becomes confusing. Sometimes leaving things in a menu or having a "basic mode" can be better than trying to pack every feature into a special key sequence.
 
I feel your pain. I have a 175 too. a couple of things that help. You can use the knob to navigate around and make selections. The little ledge on the bottom helps too. And get used to using the autofill after you enter one or two letters.

I agree the split alphabet is a pain in the rear. So is having to enter the "K" before airport designators. But still wouldn't go back to the 430. Remember entering airways one fix at a time...in turbulence? Or entering a hold in a flightplan, or deleting a hold from an approach?

No thanks, I'll keep the 175.
 
What takes 4-5 screen taps on the GTN family takes twice as many at least, plus a ton of knob spins on a GNS. And I have never had an issue with a touch screen except in turbulence that would have made using a non touch interface just as hard.
 
I find myself somewhere in the middle on this. The GTN 750 touchscreen interface is decent and manageable in turbulence if you use the side of the radio to anchor your hand. The GTN 650 is less intuitive and annoying to me because of the lack of real estate on the screen and having to navigate through a few screens to get the same thing done. The GPS 175, GNC 355, and GNX 375 are in the same annoying category for me, too many screen changes and taps to get something simple done.

That's just the interface complaints. Wait for a few years and let's see how well these touch screens age and if they'll be serviceable when they don't work anymore. I've had several touch screens in vehicles and consumer electronics fail and I'm not looking forward to the idea of an expensive piece of avionics failing.

The only thing that was really lacking in the GNS 430 was the ability to add airways. Garmin would have been far smarter to build a face lifted 430 with a higher resolution screen and an improved processor that was slide in compatible (or almost slide in compatible) with the old 430/530 navigators.
 
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