Touch Screen Avionics are frustrating. (Get off my Lawn!)

mondtster said:
I find myself somewhere in the middle on this. The GTN 750 touchscreen interface is decent and manageable in turbulence if you use the side of the radio to anchor your hand. The GTN 650 is less intuitive and annoying to me because of the lack of real estate on the screen and having to navigate through a few screens to get the same thing done. The GPS 175, GNC 355, and GNX 375 are in the same annoying category for me, too many screen changes and taps to get something simple done.

That's just the interface complaints. Wait for a few years and let's see how well these touch screens age and if they'll be serviceable when they don't work anymore. I've had several touch screens in vehicles and consumer electronics fail and I'm not looking forward to the idea of an expensive piece of avionics failing.

The only thing that was really lacking in the GNS 430 was the ability to add airways. Garmin would have been far smarter to build a face lifted 430 with a higher resolution screen and an improved processor that was slide in compatible (or almost slide in compatible) with the old 430/530 navigators.
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The GTN line was released, what 11 years ago? I don't think the screens are all going to explode next year.
 
No touch screens in my plane, but when I spent 10 hours in a full Garmin bird, I was taught to put four fingers on the panel and tap with my thumb. Worked fairly well for the limited time I needed it.
 
Salty said:
The GTN line was released, what 11 years ago? I don't think the screens are all going to explode next year.
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I know. I'm actually surprised they've fared as well as they have.

For most of my career I've worked in vehicle electronics design/manufacturing. I know the troubles the company I work for has faced and I personally don't see the current crop of avionics lasting as long as what we've seen in the past.
 
mondtster said:
I know. I'm actually surprised they've fared as well as they have.

For most of my career I've worked in vehicle electronics design/manufacturing. I know the troubles the company I work for has faced and I personally don't see the current crop of avionics lasting as long as what we've seen in the past.
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To be fair, who would've thought we'd be using the GNS's 25 years on with no end in sight?
 
Jim K said:
To be fair, who would've thought we'd be using the GNS's 25 years on with no end in sight?
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Until fairly recently it wasn’t uncommon to see radios that were installed in the 1970s or 1980s still being used and expected to work. The GNS seems to be going down that same road and so far has been capable of doing it. I have my doubts that we’ll see a lot of functional 40 year old GNS radios though.

Unfortunately, I don’t expect the next generation of avionics to last as well as the GNS has. We’ll see, hopefully I’m wrong, Especially for the sake of those who have recently invested in an entire panel upgrade. I just installed some new radios in another airplane so I’m financially committed myself.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have this Garmin 175 that I really want to like but I can no longer force myself to like it.
In turbulence it is unusable and the lack of dedicated buttons for specific functions slows me way down.

On the 430, I have a procedure button that I click and I get a list, I turn a knob to the one I want.

On this, its a handful of clicks, Nothing is where it should intuitively be.
The last 3 days it has been 12G30 and its taking me 2-3 tried to get the airport entered.
Plus Seriously having the alphabet split across 2 screens and numbers on a third...

I would take a 430 over this thing.

OK rant over. Is this all "modern" avionics now?
Are there sub $10k, supported GPS out there that still have real buttons and knobs?
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I haven't used the GPS 175 with its smaller screen, but the GTN 650 still lets you do a lot with knobs if you want to (despite misinformation to the contrary from its competitor), and for the times you need to use the touch screen — like selecting a procedure, as you mention — it's a matter of learning to anchor your hand to the panel or bezel first so that it moves with the plane, rather than just reaching out and stabbing.

As soon as I learned that, I found it quite simple to use in turbulence, and far prefer it to knobs I've used in the past (e.g dozens of turns just to select a single waypoint identifier). There are also many shortcuts that aren't obvious at first, so it's rare that you have to go back to the home screen and start from the ground up.

I do understand that the split screen keyboard must be frustrating. I don't have to deal with that on the 650. but then again, I paid twice as much as you did (and would have paid even more for an Avidyne 440 at the time), so you get the last laugh. :) $5K for a brand-new, panel-mounted GPS navigator is a strong motivator, even if you don't like touchscreens.
 
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As others have said, Avidyne is always an option. In the meantime, have you connected your iPad and pushed flight plans that way?
 
When you consider Avidyne, be sure to consider the liability you assume with the warranty. Of course, the warranty is optional. But if you decline it, you're on your own when something doesn't work.
 
IK04 said:
I was just about to type exactly that!
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Gotta be pretty quick to beat ol’ Reno.
OneCharlieTango said:
When you consider Avidyne, be sure to consider the liability you assume with the warranty. Of course, the warranty is optional. But if you decline it, you're on your own when something doesn't work.
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I received a 4 year extended warranty for free when purchased through Avionics Source
 
I've gotten accustomed to the GTN650 and it's touchscreen. I do use the knob over the keyboard for most functions, only using the touchscreen when necessary to change screens or make selections.
 
Tantalum said:
biggest pet peeve is the knob on the touchscreen doesn't actually change the frequency, it switches pages. So when you're intercepting the localizer and they hand you off to the tower you have to click the freq, THEN type it in or use the number.. it's an extra step over something that used to just be a quick turn of a knob. Okay now I'm done :)
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There's a setting in the GTN 6/750 to make the knob change frequencies. That's how mine is set up. Having said that, touch screen works fine for me now. Just took 5/10 flights to get it dialed in. Don't have any issue now.
 
4+ years with the 650 and I haven't, uh, twirled my knob once. not'a once.
 
With a Flight Stream, FF and a 430/530 you can enter airways.
 
Hang 4 said:
touch screen
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It's probably related to also what you get used to. The nice planes I was flying were G1000 and the club beaters are mostly 430/530, so the buttonology is very familiar to me. I'm okay with the 650 and newer Garmin stuff, it just feels unnatural. The G1000 is very similar to the 430, at least in my opinion with the general UI architecture

I'm sure I'd get used to it eventually
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
On the 430, I have a procedure button that I click and I get a list, I turn a knob to the one I want.
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"Tap", not "click" :)
SixPapaCharlie said:
Plus Seriously having the alphabet split across 2 screens and numbers on a third...
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For those times you need to enter something alphabetical, you can use the knobs rather than the touchscreen (as I recall, you can do this with the GPS175 and the GNX375 but not the GNC355 because that would change the COM frequency). As a matter of fact, there are a lot of situations where you can use the knobs rather than the touchscreen, not just for alphanumeric entry.

Every time you are tempted to tap the screen, twist the knobs and see what happens. Learn by doing.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Look at Avidyne 440/540. Everything you can do with touchscreen you can do with buttons & knobs. Plus it’s a slide-in replacement for the 430/530. Not sure how that helps with a 175, but there ya go.
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I think those avidynes are some of the most unintuitive pieces of junk I have ever flown with.

An updated 430 would be much better than those things
 
Mxfarm said:
Can't imagine anyone who's endured a touch screen in-flight thinking they are a great idea. It's what happens when non-users, regardless of title, design things.
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Amen to that. Our club has three planes and they all have different Garmin navigators. One has a 430W (which I love), another has a GTN 650 (which is fine on the ground or in smooth air and I don't recall what the third has, but it isn't the same as the other two. The 182 is a great machine, but it has the GTN 650 and I hate it when the air is rough. You can't touch the screen in the right place. Give me the 430W any time.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I received a 4 year extended warranty for free when purchased through Avionics Source
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Does it still have the indemnity clause in it? The one that says you’ll pay Avidyne’s legal fees?

Or maybe you got an Avionics Source warranty, not an Avidyne one.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Does it still have the indemnity clause in it? The one that says you’ll pay Avidyne’s legal fees?

Or maybe you got an Avionics Source warranty, not an Avidyne one.
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I didn’t read the fine print. It was free.
All I know is that the COM went out on a Friday. After a quick diagnostic call with Avidyne tech support confirming the failure of the COM side, I had an entirely new unit in my hands by Tuesday. No charge. Even shipping was included. None of the send it to your dealer, no talk to your dealer or any of that crap.
Can’t do any better. IMO.
 
When I got my last plane, it had new-to-me 430s, and I hated them...they were not intuitive to me at all. I bought the King course about the 430, and after a couple days of sitting in the plane in the hangar, with the King instructions on my iPad in my lap, I got the hang of them.

My new plane now has a 650, and I hate it. Not intuitive to me, can't seem to hit buttons with the slightest of bumps, and fingerprints all over the screen. How do you guys fly and eat fried chicken?

Maybe I just don't like change.
 
I'd figure out how to use the touch screen before I laid out the ca$h for new boxes and installation.
 
Country Flier said:
When I got my last plane, it had new-to-me 430s, and I hated them...they were not intuitive to me at all. I bought the King course about the 430, and after a couple days of sitting in the plane in the hangar, with the King instructions on my iPad in my lap, I got the hang of them.

My new plane now has a 650, and I hate it. Not intuitive to me, can't seem to hit buttons with the slightest of bumps, and fingerprints all over the screen. How do you guys fly and eat fried chicken?

Maybe I just don't like change.
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With the Avidyne unit, just about every operation that you have on the touchscreen has a corresponding hard button or knob. They even have a Bluetooth touchpad or a repeater app for your ipad, no charge. However you want to do it. I wish that they had an affordable autopilot. Unfortunately I’ll probably have to go to Garmin for that upgrade.
 
It's a good idea to brace your hand in turbulence whether you're using knobs or buttons or a touchscreen. I remember when I was using knobs to tune a waypoint in bad turbulence before I learned to brace, and it went something like this:
  • A_
  • B_
  • W_
  • D_
  • DAA_
  • D_
  • C_
  • CZ_
  • CY_
  • C_
  • CYAA_
  • CY_
  • CYO_
etc. One you learn to brace properly (not just stick your arm straight out and stab or grab) and have time to get used to them, knobs and touchscreens are about the same in turbulence, usability-wise. On my GTN 650, I find it faster to use the touchscreen for waypoint identifiers, but the knobs for tuning frequencies.
 
Watching Matt Guthmiller has taught me how to use the GTN.
 
jrcox19 said:
As others have said, Avidyne is always an option. In the meantime, have you connected your iPad and pushed flight plans that way?
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I have and even that is clunky.
Goinf from the Garmin to the ipad, I get a prompt and I just hit yes.

Going from the ipad, I get the menu alert, then I have to click on the update, then I have to click preview, then I have to click activate
then I have to click "Yes I am sure" then I have to click back 2 times to get back to the map.

I am also noticing somethings dont make it tp the Garmin. If I am going to a non towered field and I do a pattern entry on foreflight, I can't seem to get that to show on the GPS.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
...I am also noticing somethings dont make it tp the Garmin. If I am going to a non towered field and I do a pattern entry on foreflight, I can't seem to get that to show on the GPS.
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because garmin is for pilots, not for people who need a pattern entry drawn out for them. seriously, is that a thing these days? who does that?
 
I just went from a 650/750 set up to a 430/530 set up and I’m ok with either one, but I’m not a huge fan of the 650 or 430 with their smaller screens. But, it’s whatever you get used to using.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Just experimenting. I haven't flown a pattern in 10 years
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Right the Cirrus :D forgot - always think of the Grumman.

We put an Avidyne 540 in our Archer in Dec to replace the Garmin 530 and loving it. I have a fair amount of time with Garmin 750's and find the 540 giving me a lot more options on how to get things done.
 
Did the majority of IR training behind the GNS-430 and while I learned how to do it, always felt like 3 different designers had their sections of the device so you had to just learn that flow. Flying the Avidyne 540 this year and I don't have those moments of hesitation in buttonology. And it has been very seamless going from touchscreen to knobs and back whenever the bumps dictate knobs. The only touchscreen function I don't like is entering in airports that are alpha-numeric (2I3, 3M0) and far flung as the Avi doesn't guess them so its more taps to switch between keyboards. I know a pure touchscreen with a ledge will still aggravate me compared to having knobs.

I don't understand the FUD between Avidyne and Garmin. If something breaks and needs fixing, it will be expensive and a PITA. I did reach out to Avidyne on a comm issue and they offered to add an extended warranty ($$) even though no warranty was active. They looked at the system logs for free and didn't note an faults which points to a wiring issue. At some point I will go gremlin hunting with a sparky, but it's intermittent so not very high on my list.
 
The Avidyne also has a Bluetooth remote keyboard that can be handy in certain circumstances.
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I have a Garmin GNC300XL, easy to load during turbulence. :D

Still haven’t figured out how to activate an approach but navigating is easier than the 650 and the screen is easy and nice to view. Yes yes I know it’s outdated tech but it works. Add foreflight and you’re golden.
 
Rcmutz said:
WOW!
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We had along club discussion about that and taking the extended warranty or not and decided given how we fly the plane and what the odds of us having a mishap that could remotely be tied to the Avodyne were so low that we thought it very low risk of us having to deal with it.
 
I disagree as to its seriousness. Avidyne apparently thinks it’s important. I’ll agree with them.
 
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