Total disappointment with 4 local avionics shops

You want to be faaaaaancy and plug in ADSB in while you’re at it? Ok, there is a little bit more work for you.

We used to have a shadetree avionics guy at our airport. Decent with navcom and audio panel/intercom work, but someone with a 210 asked him to install a GNS430 that they bought on eBay. (when that was a 10 grand purchase)

I'll never forget the image of him sat in the pilots seat, with bundles and bundles of white wires tumbling out of the panel, and the panicked/defeated look on his face.

He ended up frying the GPS. He was able to trick a local shop he was friendly with into warrantying it for him, somehow.

That image has prevented me from trying to do ANY avionics work :)
 
That image has prevented me from trying to do ANY avionics work
Or have the vender make all the harnesses and interfaces to include a bench check. Then all's you need to do is clean up the old stuff and install the new. Personally I hate making harnesses.
 
But that’s the best part - making a complete harness. Lace them up, done


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Those “estimates” are completely false.

650Xi is $12k and installed costs are about 50% of parts costs. If you are upgrading from a 430 you can get a 650 INSTALLED for $10.8k, the old 430 you trade in effectively pays for the install and 10% discount on the 650. If you have a 430W, it’s only $8239.

The 50% rule of thumb applies to expensive boxes, for example an audio panel will probably be double as it’s only $2.5k.

When was the last time you priced avionics installs? '

Or tell me who does installs at 50% of the hardware costs?

I got 4 quotes for avionics work last summer. Three of them were about 100% of hardware cost for install. This was for a G3X 10" with 6 cyl EIS, a GFC-500 and a PS 4550B audio panel. I already had a 650, GTX--345, and G-5.
 
But that’s the best part - making a complete harness. Lace them up, done
Ha. Whatever floats your boat. I've got enough wiring, harnessing, crimping, lacing memories to last a couple life times.:)
 
When was the last time you priced avionics installs? '

Or tell me who does installs at 50% of the hardware costs?

I got 4 quotes for avionics work last summer. Three of them were about 100% of hardware cost for install. This was for a G3X 10" with 6 cyl EIS, a GFC-500 and a PS 4550B audio panel. I already had a 650, GTX--345, and G-5.

I just had work done (G3X 10”/GFC500 3 servos).

50% is a rule of thumb.

But latest work I had done, it works out pretty close ($18/29k)

But estimate was before Covid, took a year to get the hardware, might be a bit more now.
 
Who did the work?

Current quotes are not that low.
 
Abilene Aero in Abilene, TX (KABI) is the best avionics shop that I know. They have several of Garmin's newest avionics offerings on the shelf waiting for a customer. They are honest, do great work, and last I heard, were pretty open for scheduling.

325-677-2601. Ask for Stewart
 
I'm getting the feeling that for any major avionics installation one needs to fly cross country and drop the plane off for a month.
 
I'm getting the feeling that for any major avionics installation one needs to fly cross country and drop the plane off for a month.
A month sounds rather optimistic.
 
If it takes an estimated 156 hours to add an IFR GPS to an airplane, it would be more reasonable to simply buy a new airplane with the GPS already installed.

Let the last guy pay the insane cost for what is considered "reasonable" labor.

Yet another vote for E-AB aircraft from me.
 
, it would be more reasonable to simply buy a new airplane with the GPS already installed.
.

I've yet to see an airplane (182) for sale around $150 - $200 that has what I would want - GTN 650, 345 transponder, a second nav/com and an audio panel built in this century, and a GFC 500 autopilot.

MAYBE a G3x or at least a pair of 175's.

I've resigned myself that if I buy, I'll have to bite the bullet and pay for the panel upgrades.
 
Aerial Avionics at KMRY Monterey Ca is good. Recently made a down payment for GTN-650Txi, 10" G3X, GFC-500, GTR-225, G-5 back-up, new panels, other bits... $57K. Reusing recently installed audio panel and GTX-345 transponder.

They make the panels in house on their CNC milling table and commercial laser for etching.
 
The constantly inflated cost of parts and labor in aviation are not due to Covid or supply chains. It's the FAA. It's simple supply and demand. The FAA greatly restricts the number of mechanics who can work on our planes. This provides the mechanics with a partial monopoly environment which as always drives prices up and service levels down. It's the same with certificated avionics. Because the FAA demands an expensive certification process, the costs get passed on to the consumer.

The FAA certification process needs to be completely eliminated.
 
Ha. Whatever floats your boat. I've got enough wiring, harnessing, crimping, lacing memories to last a couple life times.:)

I agree and I've only done a couple of really simple experimental aircraft builds. With the experimental aircraft you get to devise your own wiring schematic/diagram unless you begin with something similar and build from there. AC 43.13-1B & AeroElectric Connection (Bob Nuckolls) are great resources for this.

I really respect the guys that do this for a living:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/dynon-182-auto-pilot-approved.140355/#post-3328717
 
The FAA greatly restricts the number of mechanics who can work on our planes.
Not quite. Nobody wants to be an A&P anymore. As you said simple supply and demand.
It's the same with certificated avionics.
Nothing prevents you from installing "uncertified" avionics in your TC aircraft now. Or simply own an E/AB aircraft. Or design your own... nothing prevents that either.
The FAA certification process needs to be completely eliminated.
Ha. Don't think the domestic aviation industry would last more that a week after that.;)
 
Not quite. Nobody wants to be an A&P anymore. As you said simple supply and demand.

You're telling me that you don't fundamentally understand the concept that when something is made more expensive to obtain in terms of time or effort or dollars, then fewer people will obtain it. You think the reason that few people own Ferraris is because nobody wants to own one. You might as well be saying no one wants to work on automobiles or motorcycles or boat engines or air conditioners or lawn mowers or spaceships. There are plenty of people who want to work.

Not only are there more than enough people who want to work on aircraft, if the FAA adequately reduced it's restrictions on the people who were allowed to do so, there would be a thousand new places to get your airplane worked on in less than a month. There's nothing wrong with aviation that can't be solved by reducing the restrictions placed on it by the government.
 
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Not quite. Nobody wants to be an A&P anymore. As you said simple supply and demand.
Our local community college just started an A&P program. There are 25 students and 23 on the waiting list.
 
Our local community college just started an A&P program. There are 25 students and 23 on the waiting list.

The question how many see themselves work on small piston GA planes and how many want to work on jets and turbines.
 
and how many will figure out that working on cars pays more.
 
You're telling me that you don't fundamentally understand the concept that when something is made more expensive to obtain in terms of time or effort or dollars, then fewer people will obtain it. You think the reason that few people own Ferraris is because nobody wants to own one. You might as well be saying no one wants to work on automobiles or motorcycles or boat engines or air conditioners or lawn mowers or spaceships. There are plenty of people who want to work.

Not only are there more than enough people who want to work on aircraft, if the FAA adequately reduced it's restrictions on the people who were allowed to do so, there would be a thousand new places to get your airplane worked on in less than a month. There's nothing wrong with aviation that can't be solved by reducing the restrictions placed on it by the government.

you make these claims based on..... what?
 
You're telling me that you don't fundamentally understand the concept that when something is made more expensive to obtain in terms of time or effort or dollars, then fewer people will obtain it.
Sure I do. But what you fail to understand is what drives the A&P market. It has zip to do with Ferraris. However, since you edited your original reply post that I was answering, I'll include those points as well.
How do you guys say this stuff with a straight face? You're telling me every A & P school in the US is empty.
Easy… it’s the truth. But didn’t say every AP school was empty. Actually they’re full for the most part. However, I can tell you over 50% of the AP schools have closed in the past 20-25. Why? Not enough students to go around. One school at Midland College in TX closed 2 years ago due to lack of enrollment. However, due to public involvement decided to reopen the school this year provided the community can meet new enrollment rates and find external money to run the school.
You might as well be saying no one wants to work on automobiles or motorcycles or boat engines or air conditioners or lawn mowers or spaceships.
That would also be correct as those provider numbers are down as well. Along with any other “skill-based” field. Plenty of info out there on all of this.
There are plenty of people who want to work.
Maybe. But there’s also 3-4M work-aged people sitting home collecting a check as well. However, 9 years ago just before I retired only 1 out 4 new A&Ps we hired had any work ethic with none of them wanting to work small private GA aircraft. None. So even if you open more schools and fill those slots most want to go 121/135 or turbine or rotorcraft. Not to work on little weekend warrior puddle-jumpers. It is what it is.
Not only are there more than enough people who want to work on aircraft, if the FAA adequately reduced it's restrictions on the people who were allowed to do so, there would be a thousand new places to get your airplane worked on in less than a month. There's nothing wrong with aviation that can't be solved by reducing the restrictions placed on it by the government.
Keep in mind those same “restrictions” have been in place for eons. Yet the numbers of A&Ps has slowly declined over the past 20 years. Prior to 2000, those mechanic numbers were always 100k+ but now are just under 70k. If the “restrictions” were the problem it would have been an issue decades ago and not today.

But all things aside, how would you go about fixing the mechanic problem that hasn't been tried before?
 
Our local community college just started an A&P program.
What I've seen and been told its becoming more location specific. Is there any growing local aviation industry? This is another driver with some schools. Unfortunately, with aviation maintenance jobs it too is location based and usually ends up being a detractor for someone wanting to enter the field. No one seems to want to travel anymore. At least more so now than it was when I entered the field.
 
Not only are there more than enough people who want to work on aircraft, if the FAA adequately reduced it's restrictions on the people who were allowed to do so, there would be a thousand new places to get your airplane worked on in less than a month. There's nothing wrong with aviation that can't be solved by reducing the restrictions placed on it by the government.
I'd love to know who these people are as would the shop that works on my airplane. The FAA does not stop them from hiring non-A&P's to some of the more routine work. Beyond what @Bell206 already said, the rates for A&P work are in most cases below what one pays for car mechanics, plumbers etc. If supply were as constricted as you claim, prices would be far higher. Most aircraft mech shops are between 80 and 120/hr.
 
I need to have an engine removed and reinstalled out of state - and there is no one able to do it. United hired every available A&P walking the streets …and they weren’t the only ones. There’s a shortage of aviation maintenance talent.

Avionics shops? Many in the country are months backed up, and happily printing money.

The notion that shop rate drives the price of avionics installs is cute but not always accurate. The amount of time required to install avionics isn’t like a Mitchell guide in body work - it’s far more arbitrary. Since “your plane is unique” and “the factory does horrible work” and your airplane is “decades old” and avionics shops don’t want to “charge you more with existing wiring and would rather replace with new, updated stuff”, there are plenty of f reasons for your bill to climb. A percentage or multiplier of the retail price of the hardware, a swag, who knows - but some of the estimates and invoices I’ve seen are insanity - as others have said, supply and demand combined with everyone wanting to keep up with the joneses - 650-750’s, 500’s, G3’s/G5’s/gi275’s, etc. I have flown hard IFR with pretty little round dials long before foreflight made an entry, and while I can speak my direct-to or flight plan as needed, I don’t have to. Wet fingers on touch screens don’t entice me.

The shops are not alone, either. Avionics manufacturers may use the very exact type of connector for updated electronics - but oh no. We have to change the pin outs and assignments to make sure the shops stay in business - it would be sacrilege to go the Avidyne route and do a plug and play upgrade - avionics shops aren’t necessarily in the business of making money on their techs by selling you a plug and play upgrade. The 430 to GTN could have been an easy upgrade - with only a few incremental pins- but no. Let’s redesign that. Same thing from the 330 to the 335 and 345. That was one of the apollo beauties - comm and nav pinouts migrated as you went from an SL30/GX to a 480.

I remember being thrilled that Spruce sold prebuilt harnesses. When I purchased my first one, I was surprised at what it really was - and decided to make my own harnesses ever since. Upgrading a 6000–>7000 audio panel or a 340 —> 8000bt if needed? Great. Garmin protecting their dealer network by not releasing installation manuals to the end user is another one of those revolting things - I paid you money for the product, give me the install manual! Yeah no. They’re complicit in the price inflation.
 
I’d like to get my A/P, but the barrier to entry is time. I can’t be a helper in someone’s shop for a few years, and I can’t take off work to go to an 18mo school. I did see Spartan has a hybrid program that lets you do 12 mo at home then 8 mo onsite. Still, I can’t swing that. Maybe if the economy crashes and I can’t get another job, then I’ll invest time into the program.
 
I’d like to get my A/P, but the barrier to entry is time. I can’t be a helper in someone’s shop for a few years, and I can’t take off work to go to an 18mo school. I did see Spartan has a hybrid program that lets you do 12 mo at home then 8 mo onsite. Still, I can’t swing that. Maybe if the economy crashes and I can’t get another job, then I’ll invest time into the program.
Sorta the same for me. I do work part time at a local GA aviation shop, but I'll never have enough hours to take the tests. No schools nearby, and I can't give up my day job. I wish there was some sort of CLEP test, as I'm a fully ASE certified auto tech (except for automatic transmissions), but that means little to the FAA. Benefits the local shop, though, as there's not much I haven't been able to do, and what I haven't done before has been a short learning curve. Most of the GA fleet is still running on 1930's mechanical technology. Imagine if cars were still built like that?
 
For the life of me i never have dealt with such a horrid caliber of businesses in my life. I live in central California and for the life of me i have been begging for quotes and REASONABLE ones at that for an ifr gps install. They either take forever for a quote or the quotes are so f@^#%ng ridiculous. One quote was for a used gns530 with GI 106a navigator for 22k.The other was a gns530 with 2 gi275's for 41k. I have a bonanza and i feel like i have better luck doing business with a kid selling lemonade on the street corner. Please if anyone knows of any avionics shops that want business at reasonable prices in Calif please let me know. Rant over thank you.
Please don't take this the wrong way...being a Beechcraft owner I am surprised you want such a old GPS newly installed in your bonanza. It is not like it is a 172 or something like that.
Almost 6 years ago I wanted 430 installed in my 172 and my avionics shop talked me out of it. I got a 650 and almost a 1000 hrs later now it has been so worth it. IMO not many shops are going to want to install such a old piece of equipment and have no support from Garmin. I think that is why you are not getting any respect.
 
I've been through two Garmin "GNS" navigators and one "GTX" transponder. All three of the units developed inop pushbuttons. Those old membrane buttons are crap and I would never recommend that someone add in an old GNS 530.
 
Garmin protecting their dealer network by not releasing installation manuals to the end user
Perhaps its different now, but years ago I was told the reason Garmin protects their data had more to do with managing their warranty claims than protecting their dealers. A lot of equipment issues are/were installation problems however Garmin was being hit with numerous warranty claims caused by improper install vs unit failures. Having a tight dealer network reduced the warranty costs. Seemed like after the 430s came out Garmin started clamping down on "rogue" installs.
I do work part time at a local GA aviation shop, but I'll never have enough hours to take the tests.
Curious. No one at the shop is willing to sign a letter for you to make up for the remaining experience? Have you ever talked to a maintenance ASI at the local FSDO to see what they might accept to issue your test tickets? Each FSDO and ASI can be different but some still accept letters from A&Ps to meet those requirements. Any chance you've had an E/AB repairman certificate or looked at the Light Sport Repairman-Maintenance certificate requirements?
but that means little to the FAA.
Keep in mind the FAA A&P requirements are based on international agreements and standards. Its one of the reasons an N-reg aircraft can fly anywhere in the world as the FAA system meets those international standards. Same for UK , German, French, etc aircraft. The FAA A&P is also by far the easiest aircraft mechanic certificate/license to obtain in the world with the greatest flexibility. So while it appears there's a lack of use of previous experience there are actually reasons it can't be used like your ASE experience.
 
Make friends with an A&P/IA willing to let you work under supervision. Do the work yourself, and have them check it and sign off.

Avionics is not brain surgery. It is not even aircraft mechanics. For the most part it is very simple following of instructions. Mount box in bay. Power from bus through breaker to device. Ground to ground. Build D-subs with desired inputs/outputs per pinout map, then connect to other devices per their pinout maps.

It is time consuming, but 95% of the work does not need A&P skills to perform. Anyone with a lick of sense can measure, cut, strip, and crimp wire, terminals, and connectors. Buy a 20 dollar crimper from Amazon and bam, you are a D-sub/molex factory.

Best thing is you can test it all on the ground.
 
New Garmin GTN 650 for $12K with harness. Have your buddy order it for his RV, then change his mind and sell it to you NIB. Install it yourself under A&P supervision. Study the pinout diagrams, draw a wiring schematic, label all new and existing wires, have the A&P/IA review your plan, then get a bag of butt splices and start crimping. Power it up, do a function check for the A&P/IA, and get the paperwork done. No reason you couldn't do this for 15K all in, assuming you have an open bay and no major panel surgery needed.

41K is obscene.

Garmin has some great products, but F them and their anti-competitive business practices. The market sorely needs a peer competitor. Hopefully manufacturers like Dynon and UAvionix continue to mature their product lines.

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New Garmin GTN 650 for $12K with harness. Have your buddy order it for his RV, then change his mind and sell it to you NIB. Install it yourself under A&P supervision.

What's your approval method here? Can't use the STC without Garmin's permission, so you're starting from scratch on approved data. Maybe it's not that difficult, I honestly don't know.
 
What's your approval method here? Can't use the STC without Garmin's permission, so you're starting from scratch on approved data. Maybe it's not that difficult, I honestly don't know.
Probably don't got one, which is why I despise Garmin as a company, despite liking their products.
OTOH if your A&P deems it not a major alteration, then you only need acceptable data and screw the STC.
I don't know either. I do know plenty of people have embraced the Val Radio non-TSO theory, which partially depends on nobody looking too hard.
 
Probably don't got one, which is why I despise Garmin as a company, despite liking their products.
OTOH if your A&P deems it not a major alteration, then you only need acceptable data and screw the STC.
I don't know either. I do know plenty of people have embraced the Val Radio non-TSO theory, which partially depends on nobody looking too hard.
Totally 100% agree on the non-TSO install. However, the FAA has already made it clear that VFR GPS can be minor alteration, and IFR GPS generally is a major.
 
Totally 100% agree on the non-TSO install. However, the FAA has already made it clear that VFR GPS can be minor alteration, and IFR GPS generally is a major.
There is a thriving market for used GNS 430's and 530's. How do installers get permission for those STC's?
Anyways, for anyone wondering why avionics costs so much, this discussion answers it.
 
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