Total disappointment with 4 local avionics shops

SamSES said:
Doing a direct to, getting frequencies and so on

Just less fluff and once learned those knobs are faster
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NFW.

There’s no way using a knob to rotate through 26 letters to make a selection of a letter is faster than me just typing it.

Next you’re going to tell me a typewriter is better than a computer.

Oh, and the GTN has knobs too, nobody under the age of 60 uses them.
 
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MooneyDriver78 said:
NFW.

There’s no way using a knob to rotate through 26 letters to make a selection of a letter is faster than me just typing it.

Next you’re going to tell me a typewriter is better than a computer.
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I’m not talking entering in that stuff, I’m talking about going to the nearest, or activating VTF, etc

Turning the knob, you’re not actually stopping at each click are you?
 
SamSES said:
I’m not talking entering in that stuff, I’m talking about going to the nearest, or activating VTF, etc

Turning the knob, you’re not actually stopping at each click are you?
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You said direct to, so:

ATC: proceed direct to BAIRN

ME: push 7 buttons, direct to, B, A, I, R, N, and activate.

You: a whole lot of rotating and still a few button pushing.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I’ve never gotten that instruction from ATC.

But Directto nearest select activate

Yeah, that would take me 1-2 seconds….really slows me down.
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tell me you never needed to go direct nearest without telling me you needed to go to direct to nearest lol
 
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SamSES said:
Speed wise I can go direct to the nearest, swap frequencies and a hand full of other things without even looking at the unit
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Agreed. I have both. The GTN touchscreen, I have to both look at, anchor my hand and then touch the spot I want. The GNS, I can spin the knobs by feel (the knob is its own anchor) and I know how many clicks I want so I do not have to look until it is done to see and verify what I want.

The GTN certainly has more capabilities. That does not mean the GNS does not also have its advantages.

I use FF to push my routes via FS510 into the GTN which then feeds it down to the GNS so I am not spinning knobs anyhow for entering routes.
 
SamSES said:
I’m not arguing, correcting a incorrect statement

People on this site seem a little sensitive
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No you’re not…
First you brought up FF as a comparison.

Then you changed direct to after I pointed out the GTN is faster, to direct to nearest.

If your happy with your 20 pixel display and rotating knob to enter information, fine. But no way is the GNS a better box and no way should anyone do a new install using 20 year technology.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
No you’re not…
First you brought up FF as a comparison.

Then you changed direct to after I pointed out the GTN is faster, to direct to nearest.

If your happy with your 20 pixel display and rotating knob to enter information, fine. But no way is the GNS a better box and no way should anyone do a new install using 20 year technology.
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I brought up FF as it’s how anyone with any experience first views their route, it also eliminates the issue with the 430/530 not having airways since it will give you the waypoints that make up the airway

I changed nothing, the entire time I was clearly saying direct to nearest, as that’s a very time sensitive thing if you need to do it, also direct to another point on the flight plan is easier with the knob

The resolution is plenty fine on the GNS, it’s a nav/com not for watching movies


Just because something is newer doesn’t mean it’s better in all regards, best way to view new is “different” it very well might be better on some grounds and worse on other grounds
 
Hang 4 said:
Actually, you're sharing your opinion, others have different ones. I'd never trade my GTN for GNS - but that's my opinion, doesn't make me right or wrong.
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Agreed

If I paid that much I’d keep the touch screen too
 
A significant factor in the pricing between installing a used 530W and new GTN is profit margin. The shop is making more profit on the GTN than the 530W. They are going to try to make that difference up in labor.
 
SamSES said:
can a normal AP install a 430 w/o garmins blessing?
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Yes. The issue is what data is needed for the mechanic to install it and whether they can procure it.
Jeff Oslick said:
This is AOPA's answer to that question:
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FYI: that article has several known errors and is not 100% accurate. For the most part mechanics can install most avionics with no regulatory issues.
 
Bell206 said:
Yes. The issue is what data is needed for the mechanic to install it and whether they can procure it.
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Also, whether they have 40 to 80 hours worth of open space in their work schedule to install a 430.

Plus, most A&Ps I've met put any electrical work beyond plugs and mags near the bottom of their "sure, I'd like to do that" list.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Also, whether they have 40 to 80 hours worth of open space in their work schedule to install a 430.
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It depended more on the mechanic. I did niche avionics installs as it was a cash cow for me. Had a shop make all the harnesses and interfaces so it was just S/M fab / install work for me. Knew of several other APs that did the same so it was doable. But as you mention for A&P ops in general they were not set up to perform such work has it screwed up the annual work flows.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Grossly overestimated, but GPS has : antenna, wired to: autopilot, indicator, audio panel, engine monitor, adsb box, etc…it’s a lot of work.
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I'm sure they also do the configuration and make sure everything functions properly. Plus a few hours of paperwork, maybe a W/B, and probably a few other things that don't come to mind. Installing all that stuff is a LOT of work. I know, I did it recently in my RV-10. And I wasn't burdened by a bunch of old stuff to remove or work around.
 
MadseasoN said:
I'm surprised by "156 hours to complete the work".

It takes a month to install a GPS?
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It doesn't, it's rank upsell. I've seen it in my own dealings, especially when you add insurance into the mix. Talk about tragedy of the commons run amok. Everybody is innocent in Shawshank though, and you'll never get anyone to show you how they run their scam. We're all rent-seekers in this life it seems.

All you can do is take their peddling at face value and make a personal assessment of whether the trade is worthwhile. It appears the OP is not biting, and that's alright.

The reality is that it may require travel with the airplane away from CA in order to effect a substantive lowering of the labor quote for this job. FL may be too far on the travel cost though, on a net basis. It's gonna have to be closer than that to pencil out imo.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Grossly overestimated, but GPS has : antenna, wired to: autopilot, indicator, audio panel, engine monitor, adsb box, etc…it’s a lot of work.
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And then there’s the 2 GI-275s and the OAT everyone’s missing. Might not end up at 150, but I can easily see it breaking 100 considering part of the interior is coming out, there’s a couple of STCs to deal with and then configuration.
 
beechcraft flyer said:
For the life of me i never have dealt with such a horrid caliber of businesses in my life. I live in central California and for the life of me i have been begging for quotes and REASONABLE ones at that for an ifr gps install. They either take forever for a quote or the quotes are so f@^#%ng ridiculous. One quote was for a used gns530 with GI 106a navigator for 22k.The other was a gns530 with 2 gi275's for 41k. I have a bonanza and i feel like i have better luck doing business with a kid selling lemonade on the street corner. Please if anyone knows of any avionics shops that want business at reasonable prices in Calif please let me know. Rant over thank you.
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Why in California? Find a good shop anywhere in the country, fly the plane there, airline it back and forth, and you'll still be money ahead.
 
I had a 6 month wait for my avionics work to be scheduled after we had agreed on the scope of the project. I considered it a decent amount of work. Labor was approx 55% of the total final bill. It was known there was going to significant labor involved. I required a number of follow-ups required after the initial major work was done. For me and the work I was having done, it would have made no sense to fly all the way across the country. I need to be able to easily go back to the same avionics shop.
 
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If you're happy with your dual KX155 and just want ifr gps, get a gps175 and an AV30. You'll get hsi for gps signal and the backup AI, etc. Keeps the new stuff separate. Once you start messing with the audio panel and rewiring existing stuff it gets spendy. Also ramona does legit work for sure, but don't expect a bargain. Solidly midpack or a bit above.

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CRQFlier said:
If you're happy with your dual KX155 and just want ifr gps, get a gps175 and an AV30. You'll get hsi for gps signal and the backup AI, etc.
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AV30 is not an HSI because the needle is considered supplementary and not primary. If you look in the AV30 manual, it will state that it is not approved for IFR navigation.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Why in California? Find a good shop anywhere in the country, fly the plane there, airline it back and forth, and you'll still be money ahead.
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I went that route and discovered that if you make it all the way back home with your plane and discover something wrong with it, in any way that was avionics technician induced, you’re kinda screwed on getting it fixed. Ask me how I know this.

Here are some issues I had after flying back home 575 miles with a new $50k panel that included a new Dynon Skyview HDX system and new panel.
My fuel boost pump blue LED light was VERY bright and pointed right at my face making night takeoffs and landings a bit annoying with having that light shining right at me.
Me ram air lever switch was tweaked slightly out of adjustment and now the light comes on turning takeoff at full power.
My Dynon AOA audio never worked properly.
My aural alerts from my Avidyne IFD stopped coming through my audio panel.
I think there are a few more that I can’t think of right now.

I’ll accept responsibility for not properly checking everything before flying back but it’s really difficult to remember EVERY little thing to check when picking up a plane. I made a checklist of items to check before leaving and still missed some. Flying back 575 miles to the installer just to have these items fixed just doesn’t seem worth it to me when you consider the time and expense. I’ll just live with it. But those are some of the things to consider when using a distant shop. I will saw I used a shop in Oregon and saved a bunch on sales tax. Would I do it again versus using a local shop that didn’t return my calls? Absolutely! Overall, I’m very happy with that work they did and even happier with the Skyview system.
 
I was planning some panel upgrades a few years ago, the budget is often a factor.

I went with 2 G5s, & a GPS-175 as the main items. I’d rather go modern than installing 10+ year old used avionics.

I do have a late SN kx-155 that works fine, then an older 2nd radio. I’m ok if I’m not in the running for ‘the best of show’, don’t expect it.
 
2 - GI 275, 750xi, ps8000g, usb receptacle, 510, super clock, magnetometer, a bunch of new wiring, moving things around, etc 50k- Maine Aviation
 
Lol - laughing at my significant other calling me grumpy over this topic. Flame suit on.

IANA-IA, AP, or aviónics repair station. I’m a Joe. I have a few IA’s that have been friends a few decades. I’ve knocked out a GNS400w In an hour - and it’s not even my job. My first avionics install was a KCS55a in my 172 - THaT was a challenge.

- You can obtain ANY garmin installation manual directly and legally to the latest revisions. This is what shops use to install your avionics.

- 22759 and 27500 wire is readily available everywhere - including eBay.

- connectors, if not included, are available everywhere including Mouser and Steinair.

- tie wraps and lacing cord is readily available

- you don’t need AFM8 crimpers - they’re nice but there are less expensive positronic crimpers

If you’re old like me, get jeweler’s glasses. You’ll thank me later.

Let’s not even get into autopilots and HSI’s for now as that requires a little more work - just start with a boring GNS 430, even a W. A GTN is NOT substantially more complicated an install than a 430 save for pps/timing to an ADSB device.

- 3 connectors in a 430: 4001, 4002, 4006: 78 pin high density, 25 pin d-sub, and 44 pin HD connector.

No annunciation required if the gps doesn’t exceed field of view requirements. Pick a boring GI106 as an indicator.

Antennas are boring: COMM, NAV, GPS, glide slope. If your plane already has RG400, do they need to be replaced? Heck, Spruce can make the cable to length and crimp it for you while shipping to your home.

2 power and 2 ground crimps on 4002. Done. 3 pins for mic and 2 pins for audio. 2 more for nav audio and one more for ground. 2 more for lighting. Boom. So far? 13 squeezes of the crimper.

No nav? Got a GNS420w? No problem! Your little nav indicator for your vnav approaches are only 10 more crimps - 4 for vertical and lateral flags, 2 for to/from, left and right. We are up to 23 crimps. No com? You got a 400w? Skip a few crimps. 10 little green wires for the shields to ground. Those little heat shrink weld butt splices are the bomb, and you can buy grounding pigtails with them already attached. 2 more crimps to you for punishment if you chose a GI106 with annunciation instead of a KI206 or Collins indicator.

You got a garmin gtx transponder? Oh cool. One more crimp for rs232 in for altitude info from the transponder / encoder and a common / ground. 25 crimps

4 more on the DB25 for comm power and ground if you have a 420 or 430.

Storm scope WX500? Ooops- 10 more crimps for you.

Perhaps a couple more crimps depending on audio panel.

You want to be faaaaaancy and plug in ADSB in while you’re at it? Ok, there is a little bit more work for you.

Can you pick specific products to minimize or eliminate crimps? Suuuure you can. Pick the right encoder and BoOOm. Heck, your GTx345 can have a plug in encoder installed so you don’t have to run all those lines to it. Cake.

This isn’t about having more time than money - it certainly plays into it. But using a tule of thumb of 1:1 or 2:1 to justify labor? 156 hours? Come on. It’s not insulting enough that Garmin’s prices are inflated enough already…the Aera, Nuvi and zumo already share the same hardware, and the 430 was equally as recycled- but now aviónics shops print money using this rule of thumb, now turning their nose up at old avionics. Really? G5 install time is a joke, and now garmin “charges” for an STC along with JPi to reduce or eliminate the used market. GTFO.

I scoff at the idea that everyone must have a 650 and dual flat panels to keep up with the jonesses- garmin arbitrarily discontinuing support for certain GPS’s just grinds me.

22-25k for an install…what EVER.


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