Too hot to fly Legally?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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So I am doing some check ride prep and I meet with a local CFI and I pull out the takeoff distance chart from my POH today and he says "What is the max takeoff temp for your aircraft?"
I go "Dude its a Comanche 250, it will take off from the surface of the sun. duh!"

He says well, your take off calc chart in the book only goes up to 100. Legally, can you go fly?
I go "Didn't you hear the part about the surface of the sun? We good!"

His comment was that since the numbers don't go to whatever the hell Texas is doing right now, we don't have the performance data and need to have it if we want to fly in these temps.

What do you folks (not Comanche pilots) in Phoenix do when it is 130 out?

Can I just supply the performance data to Piper? Allegedly I may be aware that it performs just fine in temps well above 100. Allegedly.
 
I don't think that's correct on the performance chart data. Just because Piper didn't include it in the chart doesn't mean it is prohibited from flight in those conditions for Part 91 flying. The performance charts are guidelines, not limitations, unless explicitly states otherwise.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
So I am doing some check ride prep and I meet with a local CFI and I pull out the takeoff distance chart from my POH today and he says "What is the max takeoff temp for your aircraft?"
I go "Dude its a Comanche 250, it will take off from the surface of the sun. duh!"

He says well, your take off calc chart in the book only goes up to 100. Legally, can you go fly?
I go "Didn't you hear the part about the surface of the sun? We good!"

His comment was that since the numbers don't go to whatever the hell Texas is doing right now, we don't have the performance data and need to have it if we want to fly in these temps.

What do you folks (not Comanche pilots) in Phoenix do when it is 130 out?

Can I just supply the performance data to Piper? Allegedly I may be aware that it performs just fine in temps well above 100. Allegedly.
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Your CFI is wrong if you're taking about a training flight or a fun flight. And if he was a good CFI, he would have showed you the reg and taught you something instead of expecting you to take his word for it. In his attempting to do so, you both would have discovered there is no such reg. The performance chart in your POH is not a limitation.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
So I am doing some check ride prep and I meet with a local CFI and I pull out the takeoff distance chart from my POH today and he says "What is the max takeoff temp for your aircraft?"
I go "Dude its a Comanche 250, it will take off from the surface of the sun. duh!"

He says well, your take off calc chart in the book only goes up to 100. Legally, can you go fly?
I go "Didn't you hear the part about the surface of the sun? We good!"

His comment was that since the numbers don't go to whatever the hell Texas is doing right now, we don't have the performance data and need to have it if we want to fly in these temps.

What do you folks (not Comanche pilots) in Phoenix do when it is 130 out?

Can I just supply the performance data to Piper? Allegedly I may be aware that it performs just fine in temps well above 100. Allegedly.
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The original POH was like 10 pages long. If we were limited by what wasn't in the POH, the plane would never go anywhere.
 
Ive seen some of the piper poh charts have "extrapolation above x not authorized", but agreed, things are pretty "send it!" in piston 91 land.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
So I am doing some check ride prep and I meet with a local CFI and I pull out the takeoff distance chart from my POH today and he says "What is the max takeoff temp for your aircraft?"
I go "Dude its a Comanche 250, it will take off from the surface of the sun. duh!"

He says well, your take off calc chart in the book only goes up to 100. Legally, can you go fly?
I go "Didn't you hear the part about the surface of the sun? We good!"

His comment was that since the numbers don't go to whatever the hell Texas is doing right now, we don't have the performance data and need to have it if we want to fly in these temps.

What do you folks (not Comanche pilots) in Phoenix do when it is 130 out?

Can I just supply the performance data to Piper? Allegedly I may be aware that it performs just fine in temps well above 100. Allegedly.
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This is like the demonstrated crosswind listed in the POH. You can fly in high winds, or high temperatures, but if things don't go right, the FAA can question your judgement and cite 91.13 (careless and reckless). Unless this is listed in the limitations section, use your judgement.
 
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If your rear end can stand the seat temperature with acceptable minor or no damage to either item, go fly.
 
I assume it was a commercial check ride so that is the context he is using. In that case he would be right. For part 91 just watch for the solar flares.
 
Weren't a bunch of commercial airlines grounded last year in Arizona because the temperature exceeded what was in the performance charts?
 
If the plane is named Icarus, he might be asking for a reason.
 
Grum.Man said:
Weren't a bunch of commercial airlines grounded last year in Arizona because the temperature exceeded what was in the performance charts?
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Those were Part 121 operations.

121.189 Airplanes: Turbine engine powered: Takeoff limitations.​


(a) No person operating a turbine engine powered airplane may take off that airplane at a weight greater than that listed in the Airplane Flight Manual for the elevation of the airport and for the ambient temperature existing at takeoff.
 
frfly172 said:
PatT 91 go for it but who wants to fly with a temp over 100.
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Well it was 118 degrees and only 11 am. If I didn't fly, it was gonna be worse soon. (Furnace Creek) Was 122 when I got to Havasu.
 
Well, crap…my phone doesn’t show post numbers, so I can’t tell if it’s too soon to post the applicable reg…oh well, life on the ragged edge, I guess!

(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:

(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and
(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.
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I’m guessing an AFM is not required, so “other reliable information” applies
 
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Doc Holliday said:
Those were Part 121 operations.

121.189 Airplanes: Turbine engine powered: Takeoff limitations.​


(a) No person operating a turbine engine powered airplane may take off that airplane at a weight greater than that listed in the Airplane Flight Manual for the elevation of the airport and for the ambient temperature existing at takeoff.
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Don’t forget Part 25 and the AFM Limitations section. ;)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
So I am doing some check ride prep and I meet with a local CFI and I pull out the takeoff distance chart from my POH today and he says "What is the max takeoff temp for your aircraft?"
I go "Dude its a Comanche 250, it will take off from the surface of the sun. duh!"

He says well, your take off calc chart in the book only goes up to 100. Legally, can you go fly?
I go "Didn't you hear the part about the surface of the sun? We good!"

His comment was that since the numbers don't go to whatever the hell Texas is doing right now, we don't have the performance data and need to have it if we want to fly in these temps.

What do you folks (not Comanche pilots) in Phoenix do when it is 130 out?

Can I just supply the performance data to Piper? Allegedly I may be aware that it performs just fine in temps well above 100. Allegedly.
Click to expand...
Check ride for what?
 
Part 91 vs 135/121 doesn’t necessarily matter. Yeah, could be something in the GOM / Ops Specs restricting it but it also might be in the limitations section of the flight manual. Our RFM specifies a 125 F limitation at sea level. Doesn’t matter if I’m operating 91 or 135. It still applies.
 
Why not just adjust performance for the current density altitude? At 115 degrees in Dallas that’s roughly 5k DA.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Well, crap…my phone doesn’t show post numbers, so I can’t tell if it’s too soon to post the applicable reg…oh well, life on the ragged edge, I guess!


I’m guessing an AFM is not required, so “other reliable information” applies
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Ah. I remember my crim law prof admonishing us to "never paraphrase the statute."

You elided the important part of this reg, the call to action:
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include—
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It seems the OP did become familiar with all the available information.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Well, crap…my phone doesn’t show post numbers, so I can’t tell if it’s too soon to post the applicable reg…oh well, life on the ragged edge, I guess!


I’m guessing an AFM is not required, so “other reliable information” applies
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aviation.stackexchange.com

What is the difference between a POH and an AFM?

Some aircraft come with a Pilot Operating Handbook and some come with an Aircraft Flight Manual. Why the different name, and is there a difference between them?
aviation.stackexchange.com aviation.stackexchange.com
 
IIRC high temps are a problem for plastic airplanes, like Cirrus. Probably a glass transition issue.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So tell us how this would apply.
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If someone was involved in a takeoff accident caused by insufficient runway, I think they would struggle to defend any interpolations or guesses as to runway needed if the temperature was above that shown on any chart or table in the POH or AFM. I would certainly not want to be in that situation.
 
Unless prohibited by a limitation of the airplane (or your opspecs in a commercial scneario), or a FAR (there isnt one) you're legal. If you crash, they will find error in the pilot, regardless of whatever the temperature is or what chart is or isn't in the POH.
 
I thought maybe this was a line you used on a chick........."you are waaaay too hot to fly, legally speaking".

I didn't say it was a good line.......
 
FastEddieB said:
If someone was involved in a takeoff accident caused by insufficient runway, I think they would struggle to defend any interpolations or guesses as to runway needed if the temperature was above that shown on any chart or table in the POH or AFM. I would certainly not want to be in that situation.
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Unless the performance chart specifically states not to take off at or above a specified temperature, then the regulation cited doesn’t apply.

We are discussing a CAR3 airplane (Piper Comanche), not a FAR 25 aircraft or aircraft operated under 121.
 
jesse said:
Unless prohibited by a limitation of the airplane (or your opspecs in a commercial scneario), or a FAR (there isnt one) you're legal. If you crash, they will find error in the pilot, regardless of whatever the temperature is or what chart is or isn't in the POH.
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”For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.”

I guess it hinges on the interpretation of “reliable information”. For instance, if the POH only has runway required for temps to 100°, what “reliable information“ would you present to an administrator if held in violation of 91,103 (b) after running off the end of the runway @ 130° in Phoenix?
 
FastEddieB said:
”For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.”

I guess it hinges on the interpretation of “reliable information”. For instance, if the POH only has runway required for temps to 100°, what “reliable information“ would you present to an administrator if held in violation of 91,103 (b) after running off the end of the runway @ 130° in Phoenix?
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The same “reliable information” you’d use if there was no performance data at all.
 
FastEddieB said:
”For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.”

I guess it hinges on the interpretation of “reliable information”. For instance, if the POH only has runway required for temps to 100°, what “reliable information“ would you present to an administrator if held in violation of 91,103 (b) after running off the end of the runway @ 130° in Phoenix?
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The regulation is about being "familiar" with "available information". No requirement for information to exist, or to follow it. Additionally, it is generally believed that crashing is bad, if the interpretation of a regulation is the determining factor of whether you crash or not, perhaps a different hobby is in order.
 
FastEddieB said:
If someone was involved in a takeoff accident caused by insufficient runway, I think they would struggle to defend any interpolations or guesses as to runway needed if the temperature was above that shown on any chart or table in the POH or AFM. I would certainly not want to be in that situation.
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The question was whether it's legal. If the OP answers that question on his checkride as his CFI did, at best the DPE will ask him to point to the reg. At worst, he'll fail. If he says it's legal but a bad idea, he might be getting closer to the correct answer.
 
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