Too hot to fly Legally?

Doc Holliday said:
The problem is that clown is teaching and peddling nonsense, and the people he teaches go on to repeat the same nonsense. And they don't have the inclination to go actually look it up.
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That's the way it goes. Life is all about receiving information, taking steps to verify, and making judgments about it.

This is an old argument. Been seeing it for years. Here's another version of the same thing:

You want tailwheel training, so you go to the guy who everyone says is the best TW instructor east of the Mississippi. You take a lesson. He refuses to endorse the lesson because you put the time in the PIC column. He insists you can't log it as PIC until after you have the endorsement.

I actually remember this one. And yes, the poster was told in no uncertain terms by a bunch of people to get rid of that instructor because "that clown is teaching and peddling nonsense." After all if he's wrong about writing somehting on a piece of paper, what can he possibly teach about flying a tailwheel.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
And I am ****ing trying to learn! You are giving me **** because I admittedly question something and I am seeking more knowledge you miserable hypocrite.
Why even be on a forum if you are going to **** on people for asking questions. ****ing block me already.
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Easily triggered?

And I don’t block people.

Have a nice day. ;)
 
Yup, pretty banal appeal-to-trust fallacies being peddled here wrt who and what to trust. The soliloquies as they read/appear on my screen, tell me two or more of the clowns on my ignore list must be at it again lol.
 
Doc Holliday said:
The problem is that clown is teaching and peddling nonsense, and the people he teaches go on to repeat the same nonsense. And they don't have the inclination to go actually look it up.
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In fairness to the unnamed CFI, what we have here is an intentionally editorialized version of a conversation that took place out of our earshot. It's reasonable to respond to comment on the lesson the OP took from the conversation, but we really don't know the details of what was said. And there are some good CFIs who get regulatory details wrong.

That said, it is really shockingly easy to become a CFI, and there are many bad ones.
 
...I'm starting to think we're not talking about density altitude charts in POHs anymore. This seems more personal.
 
The PIC (and the instructor) have to determine if the runway length is adequate. You can extrapolate from the POH data, add X% for every 1000 ft DA, or perform wind tunnel experiments. But you do have to make that determination. If you have not done that, then I am not sure if the flight would be legal. Perhaps this is what the instructor was trying to point out?
 
midlifeflyer said:
I agree. But since the performance charts are not a limitation (and are arguably not even accurate except with a brand new airplane), they are not the sole method of determining acceptable runway length.
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And I agree with that. However, im not even sure where to get the further information. Perhaps the manufacturer has the enhanced performance..??

I do know that “too hot to fly” due to lack of performance data is a real thing. As you say, that may not manifest itself through the AFM/POH charts. A serious 135 operator may have access to further data.

I fly 121. It’s a mystery. We hit “send”, and numbers populate in our FMS…. Or they don’t.
 
Lindberg said:
Also maybe not the correct answer on a scenario-based checkride, since that kind of a cop out. The real question is, if your client wants to go, can you manage to do it safely and legally?
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How does one know? Likely 135/121 operators have access to the data, but a small 91 operation may not.
 
Kritchlow said:
How does one know? Likely 135/121 operators have access to the data, but a small 91 operation may not.
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As previously stated, a Part 25 aircraft will have the data. Either accessed via manuals, FMS or systems such as APG.
 
Doc Holliday said:
As previously stated, a Part 25 aircraft will have the data. Either accessed via manuals, FMS or systems such as APG.
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Well that makes sense, but what about a part 23 aircraft?
There are actually charter/fractional ownership outfits running cirrus aircraft.
 
Kritchlow said:
And I agree with that. However, im not even sure where to get the further information. Perhaps the manufacturer has the enhanced performance..??

I do know that “too hot to fly” due to lack of performance data is a real thing. As you say, that may not manifest itself through the AFM/POH charts. A serious 135 operator may have access to further data.

I fly 121. It’s a mystery. We hit “send”, and numbers populate in our FMS…. Or they don’t.
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Maybe when I linked the Koch chart I should have linked to FAA Safety Briefing which talks a little about it? I don't think it's about being exact. Given that the airplane is no longer new, the pilot isn't perfect, and winds change on gusty days, I don't even think it can be exact beyond having enough knowledge and tools to say, it's adequate.
 
"I've taken off at higher DA in a shorter distance in this aircraft," is reliable information.

"The performance chart goes to 2° below what the temp is now, and says I only need a quarter of the runway," is reliable information.

"There's a 20 knot headwind," is reliable information.

Combined with, "If I haven't lifted off by halfway down the runway, I'll abort."

On the check ride, the examiner wants to see that you know the rules and have good ADM.
 
Easy to tell which guys have never looked at an early Comanche POH/AFM/Whatever you want to call it, and those that have.
 
EdFred said:
Easy to tell which guys have never looked at an early Comanche POH/AFM/Whatever you want to call it, and those that have.
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I think it could be beneficial to do flight instructor training in a variety of different airplanes with different levels of documentation and instrumentation, at least to understand that differences exist. That FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR-ARCHER rating sometimes doesn’t quite cut it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I think it could be beneficial to do flight instructor training in a variety of different airplanes with different levels of documentation and instrumentation, at least to understand that differences exist.
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What? Then how are the puppy mill schools supposed to kick out mediocre to incompetent CFIs ?!?!?
 
Took off a few days ago from CGZ at 4pm (110f) and my eyes were burning so bad from all the sweat, literally couldn't wipe it off fast enough.

You guys are nuts. Too hot in the middle of the day in AZ unless your plane has AC.
 
Velocity173 said:
Part 91 vs 135/121 doesn’t necessarily matter. Yeah, could be something in the GOM / Ops Specs restricting it but it also might be in the limitations section of the flight manual. Our RFM specifies a 125 F limitation at sea level. Doesn’t matter if I’m operating 91 or 135. It still applies.
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Well, we'd STILL be on the ground in Texas......had we followed the rule about 30 years ago in a Falcon 10. From the NW, it never occurred to us that it might be too hot or high to T/O legally. In actuality, we were only in the danger zone for maybe 10 seconds.
 
kgruber said:
Well, we'd STILL be on the ground in Texas......had we followed the rule about 30 years ago in a Falcon 10. From the NW, it never occurred to us that it might be too hot or high to T/O legally. In actuality, we were only in the danger zone for maybe 10 seconds.
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To be honest I’m not even sure if our limit is a performance issue or a fiberglass resin issue with the blades. Book just states 125 F restriction at sea level and using a normal lapse rate to actual height above sea level. Pretty sure all lift just doesn’t abruptly disappear at 126 F.
 
Flew yesterday, and was impressed that the automated weather at my home airport reported density altitude as 3,600. The airport sits at 59 feet above sea level....

Having an open-cockpit airplane *sounds* nice when the temperatures near 100F. But of course the flights are bumpy, and climbs are sluggish. Each touch-and-go features an agonizingly slow climb back to pattern altitude, and the thermals varying from the parking lot/grassy field alternation of the ground on final throws one around. Air-conditioned car was a relief, afterwards. Much prefer flying in the mid 50s. Leather jacket does just fine.

Ron Wanttaja
 
When I moved to Florida, one of our neighbors cautioned me about takeoff performance in the summer. He said you have to pay attention to it because with the heat and humidity, our 20’ MSL airport often has a density altitude over 1300’, and sometimes close to 2000.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
But it’s dry heat?
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Yes, it is dry heat. So when it is so hot you burst into flames, they'll be dry flames...
 
MauleSkinner said:
Head up north when it’s -40 out…it’s a dry cold, so it doesn’t feel nearly as cold.
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I’ve walked from my parked car to a building at -40 with 20mph winds. At that temp F or C doesn’t matter. I wasn’t thinking about the humidity :frown2:
 
MauleSkinner said:
Head up north when it’s -40 out…it’s a dry cold, so it doesn’t feel nearly as cold.
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Don't forget I lived north of the Arctic Circle for a number of years, I still have a numbness in a few fingertips and toes...(insert frozen emoji here)

I experienced -60 in Fairbanks one week. Yes, it was cold enough for me, thank you... :yesnod:

As Initial Fix stated, it don't matter if it is F or C at that temp.
 
Zeldman said:
Don't forget I lived north of the Arctic Circle for a number of years, I still have a numbness in a few fingertips and toes...(insert frozen emoji here)

I experienced -60 in Fairbanks one week. Yes, it was cold enough for me, thank you... :yesnod:

As Initial Fix stated, it don't matter if it is F or C at that temp.
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I knew you were up there somewhere. My Alaska wintertime was in the Deep South of Yakutat. Mostly could work without gloves, but definitely NOT a dry cold.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
So I am doing some check ride prep and I meet with a local CFI and I pull out the takeoff distance chart from my POH today and he says "What is the max takeoff temp for your aircraft?"
I go "Dude its a Comanche 250, it will take off from the surface of the sun. duh!"

He says well, your take off calc chart in the book only goes up to 100. Legally, can you go fly?
I go "Didn't you hear the part about the surface of the sun? We good!"

His comment was that since the numbers don't go to whatever the hell Texas is doing right now, we don't have the performance data and need to have it if we want to fly in these temps.

What do you folks (not Comanche pilots) in Phoenix do when it is 130 out?

Can I just supply the performance data to Piper? Allegedly I may be aware that it performs just fine in temps well above 100. Allegedly.
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Why is Christy being difficult?
 
IMO, yes, takeoff criteria I need to know information for commercial operations. How you derive that info is the question.
If all you have is the charts in the book, then imo, tough darts.
If you have access to APG or equivalent, that’s awesome.

In the 121 world, we hit the send button. Whatever comes back rules the day… mostly.
 
Dave Anderson said:
Why is Christy being difficult?
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HAHA! I used her for IR but I have a different CFI for Commercial. I want to use a different instructor for every rating just so I get different perspectives and there is no "friend" treatment. I start Multi training Next Monday and I am using a school which should be a whole different ballgame too. Keeping myself on my toes.
 
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