Today’s headline: Passengers to be compensated for “airline controllable” delays.

Mayor Pete better get his ATC ranks fully staffed before he pulls stunts like this.

I was #35 for takeoff out of EWR a few Sundays ago, and there wasn't even any convection in the area, just some wind and rain.
 
Groundpounder said:
Mayor Pete better get his ATC ranks fully staffed before he pulls stunts like this.

I was #35 for takeoff out of EWR a few Sundays ago, and there wasn't even any convection in the area, just some wind and rain.
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:eek: 35! Were you basically starting taxi in teterboro!?
 
Groundpounder said:
Mayor Pete better get his ATC ranks fully staffed before he pulls stunts like this.

I was #35 for takeoff out of EWR a few Sundays ago, and there wasn't even any convection in the area, just some wind and rain.
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Do you know that ATC staffing caused the delay? Define the 'area' where there wasn't convection? Where were you going? Where were other planes going? What was the weather there? Between here and there?
 
luvflyin said:
Do you know that ATC staffing caused the delay? Define the 'area' where there wasn't convection? Where were you going? Where were other planes going? What was the weather there? Between here and there?
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1. Yes
2. The Northeast
3. Jacksonville and Boston
4. All over
5. N/A
6. N/A
7. N/A

It was 20 MIT over WHITE and BIGGY with occasional complete departure stops.

N90 is very short staffed, and the controllers aren't happy about losing a big chunk of their airspace to PHL, so they are a little less enthusiastic about coming to work for mandatory overtime.
 
Groundpounder said:
1. Yes
2. The Northeast
3. Jacksonville and Boston
4. All over
5. N/A
6. N/A
7. N/A

It was 20 MIT over WHITE and BIGGY with occasional complete departure stops.

N90 is very short staffed, and the controllers aren't happy about losing a big chunk of their airspace to PHL, so they are a little less enthusiastic about coming to work for mandatory overtime.
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The PHL move has been turned off. https://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/air-traffic-controllers-long-island-no-move-t970guhk

Politics aside - the airspace move could fix some issues, but moving the controllers who are already at N90 is going to be a nonstarter. Very few people want to work at N90 that aren't originally from Long Island, but they did get a ton of people bidding to move to PHL if they transferred the airspace.
 
Seanaldinho said:
The PHL move has been turned off. https://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/air-traffic-controllers-long-island-no-move-t970guhk

Politics aside - the airspace move could fix some issues, but moving the controllers who are already at N90 is going to be a nonstarter. Very few people want to work at N90 that aren't originally from Long Island, but they did get a ton of people bidding to move to PHL if they transferred the airspace.
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That is good. What was the date of that announcement? The link you provided is behind a paywall.
 
Groundpounder said:
Good. Lets hope they can get their staffing levels up to where they need to be.
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Not to stray too much farther, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for the next couple of years (and thats after people have been on mandatory 6 day weeks for years). The system is severely behind, both from a pure logistics standpoint and from a state of mind. The NATCA / FAA / DOT / Line Controller relationship is pretty miserable.
 
luvflyin said:
Do you have a link to what the plan was? This article made it sound like Philly would be running Newark. I'm having trouble seeing that. Where do you work?
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I'm gonna simplify as the plan has changed a dozen times but the rough idea was...

The Newark approach controllers are in N90 on Long Island, N90 is notoriously hard to staff because not everyone wants to live on Long Island (cost of living, politics, etc.). They wanted to move those controllers to PHL approach (either as a temporary duty or they could make a permanent move) and run Newark approach there. They would bring controllers to PHL and get them certified to run EWR and then let controllers that wanted to go back to N90 go back and work a different area, hence bringing up the N90 staffing.

I work in the industry, but not a controller.
 
Seanaldinho said:
I'm gonna simplify as the plan has changed a dozen times but the rough idea was...

The Newark approach controllers are in N90 on Long Island, N90 is notoriously hard to staff because not everyone wants to live on Long Island (cost of living, politics, etc.). They wanted to move those controllers to PHL approach (either as a temporary duty or they could make a permanent move) and run Newark approach there. They would bring controllers to PHL and get them certified to run EWR and then let controllers that wanted to go back to N90 go back and work a different area, hence bringing up the N90 staffing.

I work in the industry, but not a controller.
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Thx. So all the EWR Sectors? Or just some? I did some googlin'. Looks there was a plan at one time to combine New York and Philly Approaches. Didn't see where the new location was going to be. That obviously hasn't happened. Do you know where that location was going to be?
 
That’s all well and good ,but what happens when ATC is the cause. Simply nothing.
 
Airline fares are already up 17.7% in the last year. Yet more cost pressures on carriers are only going to drive prices higher. There is no free lunch.
 
Just run a bigger CAT 5 cable and relocate the screens to somewhere to where people want to live. N90 problem solved.
 
Hmm, they already are.

But weather and ATC are NOT within the airlines control, so pax are still on the hook to take care of themselves.
 
Bonchie said:
Airline fares are already up 17.7% in the last year. Yet more cost pressures on carriers are only going to drive prices higher. There is no free lunch.
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Good. Then maybe the Walmart fatties will start traveling in a way more representative of their lifestyle - like Greyhound.
 
The problem is in decided when a delay is in the airline's control.

Mx delays are easy. Those are controllable.

When legitimate weather/ATC/airport infrastructure issues cause airplanes and crews to be out of position, who's fault is that? The airlines will say it's not-controllable, passengers typically see it as the airline's fault.

Most delays have multiple contributing factors. How to you parse it out?

i.e. Airplane and/or crew is stuck in LGA because of weather closing departure routes and N90 is short staffed. You're in Atlanta waiting for your airplane and/or crew which was supposed to be on that LGA flight. Airline swaps your flight to an airplane/crew that's coming from CLT because it will arrive before your original airplane/crew from LGA. The CLT-ATL flight is on-time but is scheduled to arrive ATL after your originally scheduled departure time. App says that your flight is delayed because of the late inbound aircraft.

Is that weather/ATC because the original airplane/crew was stuck in LGA or is it airline controllable because the flight from CLT wasn't scheduled into ATL in time for your flight?

I don't know how the proposed rule with sort that out.

If the rule is well written, it can provide a good base standard that all airlines have to meet. If not, there will be unintended consequences as airlines adapt to the rule as written to minimize their outlay.

In any case, it will favor the large, established legacy carriers because they are in a better position to adjust, adapt and to pay the required compensation.
 
luvflyin said:
Thx. So all the EWR Sectors? Or just some? I did some googlin'. Looks there was a plan at one time to combine New York and Philly Approaches. Didn't see where the new location was going to be. That obviously hasn't happened. Do you know where that location was going to be?
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The whole EWR area. I do not know where that was planned for.

Getonit said:
Just run a bigger CAT 5 cable and relocate the screens to somewhere to where people want to live. N90 problem solved.
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Yeah..... not when you have a government entity, a union, potentially massive economic impact, and a critical safety matter involved. But I wish it were so simple.
 
Getonit said:
Just run a bigger CAT 5 cable and relocate the screens to somewhere to where people want to live. N90 problem solved.
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Been done. Socal, Norcal, there are others. They use Microwave, not cable...

DSC_4339rc.JPG
 
Seanaldinho said:
The whole EWR area. I do not know where that was planned for.



Yeah..... not when you have a government entity, a union, potentially massive economic impact, and a critical safety matter involved. But I wish it were so simple.
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Did it in Michigan. It is simple.
 
All good and fine as long as we can get reimbursed from the person causing the ruckus when a wacko wants to interrupt a flight ...

Here is a prime example and note at the end, "he wasn't arrested"

 
Larry in TN said:
The problem is in decided when a delay is in the airline's control.

Mx delays are easy. Those are controllable.
...
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(not directed at Larry or anyone else...)

awesome, let's have more reasons why the airlines want mx done fast (instead of, oh, safely).

what could possibly go wrong?
 
EdFred said:
Did it in Michigan. It is simple.
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They are doing a number of TRACON consolidations across the country. Another one just happened in Illinois I think. This one has been politicized to death for whatever reason.

Personally - I am in favor of facility consolidations, modernization of the FAA ATC system in general (electronic strips, digital towers, modern radar HMIs, use of ADS-B, etc.), and dare I say it out loud - privatization. But the thread has drifted enough...
 
These rules will accomplish nothing.
 
SCCutler said:
These rules will accomplish nothing.
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Rules rarely do. But they make people and politicians who don't know what they're regulating feel better for some reason.
 
Interesting... and timley

I just had the worst experience with one of the airlines... you know, the one with the significant hubs out of DFW and MIA.

They lost my bag on the outbound, forcing me to buy all new vacation clothes and snorkeling gear... I submitted the claim, and they pushed back on the cab fare into town to get the stuff, the half-day lost on vacation (hotel charge), the canceled tour we had booked that morning, and the snorkeling gear. Fine, you'll be hearing from my lawyers... a day later, the claim was settled for my amount.

But wait, that's not all - on the way back, our flight was delayed by three hours which caused us to miss our connection, forcing us to spend another night in MIA. Working with the gate agent, they were reluctant about the hotel and the meal vouchers, saying the delay was beyond their control; after a few seconds of, don't you even think to pull that dung on me, and telling them the pilot noted the delay was due to equipment maintenance they acquiesced.

Oh, but the story is not over. I submitted another claim for the extended parking charge and the fact I had to burn a vacation day due to their delays. This request got some severe resistance from the airline. Again, in my best nasality NYC accent imitation, I told them, you'll hear from my lawyers... In place of money that had offered points... nope, and this is where I was told in a very polite corporate way, take the points or pound sand.. This is still in negotiation.

Where is all of this going? I shouldn't have to fight with them tooth and nail when they screw things up to be rightly compensated for the loss I have to incur due to their mistakes. Their having to come out of pocket on this may cause them to tighten things up. But I digress, as they say build a better mouse trap, and you make the mouse smarter, and they'll find a way to wiggle out.

Oh! My bag showed up at my house a week after we got back..
 
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