To Quick Build or Not To Quick Build

[Jim K]

The problem with watching Youtube videos of aircraft builds, is that they are nothing like the real experience. They show a happy, logical sequence of events and everything seems straightforward. Put a smile on your face, do some stuff every day, take a break for a cold one, and thank the family for their support, and you can finish in 18 months. Then you just get signed off and go fly the plane!

I saw one video some time ago about a guy who was building an RV that actually gave a taste of what it was really like. (FYI, mine is a Zenith, not an RV). Day after day the guy talked about the pain, the frustration, the never-ending problems with details, parts, tools, money, family issues, time away from his real life, etc.. I don't remember the guy or his Youtube channel. I just remember finding it halfway thru my build and it justified my own feelings. All I could think of was, I wish I had seen this video before I ever started.

The "happy" videos are BS. When some happy builder says they spent 3000 hours building their RV, they are probably underestimating actual shop time. In addition, they have not included is at least that much time at home on the computer sourcing parts, searching for build answers, deciding what to do next, figuring out how to do it, listening to various opinions, etc..

Building is an all-consuming thing. If you're not working on it you are thinking about it. You constantly have dozens of decisions to make and those thoughts never stop rolling around in your head when you are at work, or with your family.

You will do many things wrong and make any mistakes. It will frustrate the heck out of you. You will spend 45 minutes trying to get an AN6 nut onto it's screw. And this will happen over and over again until you want to scream.

You will do budgets and spreadsheets and parts lists over and over again. More hours on the computer.

And the biggest nightmare's is, years from now, you will get to the wiring. You think you have been thru hell up to this point, but you have no idea what you are in for.

And then there is all the fiberglass....

I built a rather simple kit - and yes mine was a quick build. The Zeniths are a magnitude easier to build than an RV. The process was nothing like I imagined after watching all those "happy" Youtube videos. I cannot even comprehend trying to build and RV.

Yes, RV's are incredible aircraft from every flying perspective. They have an awesome builder support network. I wish I owned one. But there is a reason many builders spend 8 to 10 years, or longer, building them.

At the end of their builds everyone seems to want to put a happy face on the process. I guess it's natural to remember the good stuff and suppress the bad.

Four years after I "finished" my build I was still spending hours and hours working on the plane, thinking about the problems and solving various build issues.

(To be clear - Vans Aircraft, their kits, and the builder support is the best in the industry. Their aircraft, in my opinion, are the best in the industry. I would trade my Zenith in a heartbeat for one, if I had the money. This post is not, in any way, a bash on RV's.)

This is why I like Jason Ellis. He's been building his -10 for what....7 years? I'm frankly amazed he hasn't given up. He shares about life getting in the way... mistakes & re-do's. Sometimes even a little depression. Watching him is enough to convince me to let van's do as much as possible if I ever build one. I'm not sure I have the patience to debur all those holes.

 

[kyleb]

The problem with watching Youtube videos of aircraft builds, is that they are nothing like the real experience. They show a happy, logical sequence of events and everything seems straightforward. ...

The other issue is the old "Eating an elephant" trope. There comes a point where you've had fried elephant, broiled elephant, blackened elephant, elephant fritters, and every other imaginable form of elephant. In fact, you're damned tired of elephant. But there's still 80% of one waiting for you when you get home every day...

 

[4RNB]

Hired or not, he had a team of experienced builders and clearly stated "I can't be there all the time". His vids clearly belong in the happy go lucky category, not the sweat equity worry over every detail. QB or not, his was NOT the experience I expect to have. Flight chops is a videographer, not an experimental plane builder.

 

[pfarber]

Just happened to look at what the current lead times are. Quickbuild kits are all 18+ months right now...Even slow build kits are running 8-13 months or more.

The kits are made in the Philippines and right now they are still in a hard lockdown. 3rd world countries usually lock down because its cheap and easyto force the population to do it.

 

[Craig]

The kits are made in the Philippines and right now they are still in a hard lockdown. 3rd world countries usually lock down because its cheap and easyto force the population to do it.

Actually, they've second sourced QB's to a company in Brazil. Don't know how quick they will be coming from there, or if they already are.

 

[tsts4]

Here’s the latest business update from Van’s and they talk extensively about the status of QB kits.

 

[NordicDave]

..don't build because you want a plane, build because you like to build.

Well said.

 

[CJones]

Even if you QB, you'll still get the 'experience' of building, so don't worry about that part. IIRC, you still have to seal the tanks yourself which itself is one of the bigger pains of wing work. When my dad and I built the -7A, we did slow-build all the way through. As already suggested here, dad was building small pieces in the basement a few minutes or hours multiple times per week. When I would come in from school on weekends, we would make those smaller components into bigger components. If he hadn't been 'tinkering' with it nearly every night of the week it would have taken MUCH longer than the 2.5 years it took us on the -7A.

When he decided to build the -10, we both agreed that we had paid our dues to the rivet bucking gods and did QB on the wings. I think the -10 with QB wings took about the same time as the -7A full slow-build.

 

[rhkennerly]

I wasn't going to circle back to this topic, but this episode from Kit Plane Enthusiast made me think of you. Particularly the last half of the video.

he talks about the weariness of constant decision-making & how it slows him down in his build (his second!).

That would be me. I'd get so wrapped up in the analysis that I'd never have enough information to move forward. Plus--the plane would come in way overweight from the tubes of Locktite I'd squeeze on every thread.

 

[donjohnston]

Not a statistically relevant sample size, but I know a bunch of people who have built airplanes.

I've never once heard someone who purchased a quick build say "I wish I had got a non-quick build kit." I have heard people part way through their build mention that they wish they had gotten a quick build kit.

Just something to think about.

 

[pfarber]

The factory says a BD-4 can be built from a kit in 800 hours. much less if you opt for the $20k 'factory assist' (and that's a 2 year old number).

I would rather factory assist as that means you have access to all the tools, jigs and experience to get it done.

 

[kyleb]

The factory says a BD-4 can be built from a kit in 800 hours. .

Man, I struggle to believe that number. I helped build the "One Week Wonder" RV-12 at Oshkosh a few years ago. I was amazed at the quality and fitment of the kit. Even better, the subkits give you everything you need - airframe, engine, prop, avionics, wiring, switches, etc. and specific plans as to how to put it all together. Van's says 800-1000 hours to assemble that kit. I can't imagine a BD-4 would be even close. You could spend 100 hours planning and ordering your FWF and panel, plus the thousand other details that are spelled out for you in <say> an RV-12.

 

[Crashnburn]

Man, I struggle to believe that number. I helped build the "One Week Wonder" RV-12 at Oshkosh a few years ago. I was amazed at the quality and fitment of the kit. Even better, the subkits give you everything you need - airframe, engine, prop, avionics, wiring, switches, etc. and specific plans as to how to put it all together. Van's says 800-1000 hours to assemble that kit. I can't imagine a BD-4 would be even close. You could spend 100 hours planning and ordering your FWF and panel, plus the thousand other details that are spelled out for you in <say> an RV-12.

I've never built a kit, but I've researched building for many years. A common rule of thumb is take whatever number of hours they quote you and double it.

As far as kit cost. take the cost of the fuselage kit. and triple it, to cover engine and avionics, then double that number. And that doesn't count the opportunity cost of working the hours you spend building at a paying job instead.

 

[donjohnston]

I've never built a kit, but I've researched building for many years. A common rule of thumb is take whatever number of hours they quote you and double it.

Depends on the kit and if you've built one before. For a first time Velocity builder, triple or quadruple it. I hear Vans manuals are pretty good so doubling it could be right.

As far as kit cost. take the cost of the fuselage kit. and triple it, to cover engine and avionics, then double that number.

Be easier just to add the cost of an engine and avionics. Then add $10-$20k (that's just a wag) to cover all the nuts, bolts, wire, circuit breakers and other stuff (the battery, contactors, hoses, nav lights, etc.) you never thought about because they're not "included in the kit".

And that doesn't count the opportunity cost of working the hours you spend building at a paying job instead.

I don't know anybody who built an airplane for financial gain. I know a few people who sold an unfinished kit who did.

 

[Crashnburn]

Depends on the kit and if you've built one before. For a first time Velocity builder, triple or quadruple it. I hear Vans manuals are pretty good so doubling it could be right.

Be easier just to add the cost of an engine and avionics. Then add $10-$20k (that's just a wag) to cover all the nuts, bolts, wire, circuit breakers and other stuff (the battery, contactors, hoses, nav lights, etc.) you never thought about because they're not "included in the kit".

I don't know anybody who built an airplane for financial gain. I know a few people who sold an unfinished kit who did.

What I meant is, a quick build will probably cost about $25/hour saved. Most people on this board make considerably more than that per hour, so you, theoretically, could more than make back the extra cost of QB by working the hours the QB saved you.

 

[tsts4]

What I meant is, a quick build will probably cost about $25/hour saved. Most people on this board make considerably more than that per hour, so you, theoretically, could more than make back the extra cost of QB by working the hours the QB saved you.

Well I have built a kit and have been involved in the E-AB community since the mid-90’s. Great theory— never works out in reality. Opportunity costs are just philosophical talking points from Econ 101 as far as building is concerned.

 

[Rcmutz]

“Many that most definitely do NOT call themselves handy, really do have a great mechanical aptitude and spatial intelligence I think, but just don't find enjoyment in it.“

I think the last part of the above statement is the key. You have to have a passion about it. I have the time now that I am retired, the aptitude, and would like to build. BUT, I also like to fly, so I am don’t think I would have the passion to stick to it for the 2-2.5 years it would take to build. My neighbor is a wood worker. He has built some really beautiful items for his home. He to is retired with aptitude, a workshop, but most importantly, he enjoys and has the passion for it.

Like has been said many times before, build because you like to build. If you want to fly, fly. There are many ways to reduce the cost of flying. Building is one way, but be prepared for a long, and at times frustrating process.

 

[kyleb]

What I meant is, a quick build will probably cost about $25/hour saved. Most people on this board make considerably more than that per hour, so you, theoretically, could more than make back the extra cost of QB by working the hours the QB saved you.

Kinda/sorta true, but my employer pays me the same whether I put in 40 or 60 hours a week. Sure, there are career advantages to "works harder", but it is hard to directly quantify. I would look at the QB time savings as an opportunity to either finish the project faster or to let you spend a few hours a week playing golf or tennis and still finish the project in 5 years.

 

[donjohnston]

What I meant is, a quick build will probably cost about $25/hour saved. Most people on this board make considerably more than that per hour, so you, theoretically, could more than make back the extra cost of QB by working the hours the QB saved you.

Ah... I see. Sorry I missed that.

However. That philosophy only works when trying to convince yourself (or a spouse) why it's a good idea to go fastbuild. The reality for 99% of the people is the time you don't have to spend on Saturday afternoon doing fiberglass layups wasn't going to be spent making money anyway. Either because it's not an option (hourly workers generally don't get to work as many hours as we want or when we want) or because we need that time away from work.

 

[Bill Watson]

“Many that most definitely do NOT call themselves handy, really do have a great mechanical aptitude and spatial intelligence I think, but just don't find enjoyment in it.“

I think the last part of the above statement is the key. You have to have a passion about it. I have the time now that I am retired, the aptitude, and would like to build. BUT, I also like to fly, so I am don’t think I would have the passion to stick to it for the 2-2.5 years it would take to build. …

…Like has been said many times before, build because you like to build. If you want to fly, fly. There are many ways to reduce the cost of flying. Building is one way, but be prepared for a long, and at times frustrating process.

I fall into a category that likes to fly and I knew I would enjoy the build required to put me in my ‘lifetime’ plane. Fortunately I was able to keep flying while building so the 5 year build allowed me to ramp down work while continuing to fly and build.

Is the passion for building there? When asked, my answer is that I only have 1 build in me. One of the greatest accomplishments in my life but once was enough. The QB did not detract from the joy of accomplishment one bit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[pfarber]

Man, I struggle to believe that number. I helped build the "One Week Wonder" RV-12 at Oshkosh a few years ago. I was amazed at the quality and fitment of the kit. Even better, the subkits give you everything you need - airframe, engine, prop, avionics, wiring, switches, etc. and specific plans as to how to put it all together. Van's says 800-1000 hours to assemble that kit. I can't imagine a BD-4 would be even close. You could spend 100 hours planning and ordering your FWF and panel, plus the thousand other details that are spelled out for you in <say> an RV-12.

A BD-4 is not a complicated airplane. You can build the wings in a few hours each. The wing ribs are glued to the tube spar and the skin is glued to the honeycomb ribs. In the time it would take you to rivet a few ribs to the spars on an RV you can complete an entire BD wing. It takes longer to cure than assemble.

You don't even rivet the fuselage, its bolted together. Super fast process.

I believe the BD 800 hour figure if you can work steadily and get it done.

 

[FormerHangie]

What I meant is, a quick build will probably cost about $25/hour saved. Most people on this board make considerably more than that per hour, so you, theoretically, could more than make back the extra cost of QB by working the hours the QB saved you.

Assuming you can monetize the extra labor. Most of us who are on salary are on the bupkis incentive plan. You can work as my extra hours as you want, you still get the same paycheck as if you didn't.

 

[FormerHangie]

I've always wondered how many homebuilders ever fly as many hours in their airplane as they spent building it.

 

[Crashnburn]

Assuming you can monetize the extra labor. Most of us who are on salary are on the bupkis incentive plan. You can work as my extra hours as you want, you still get the same paycheck as if you didn't.

True. But if you work another year instead of building full time, then you'll get paid more for that 2000 hours than the 2000 hours quick build saved you cost. If you can wait that long.

 

[kyleb]

I've always wondered how many homebuilders ever fly as many hours in their airplane as they spent building it.

What a rotten question to ask. ;-) The answer is "Not a lot, in my experience."

 

[Crashnburn]

What a rotten question to ask. ;-) The answer is "Not a lot, in my experience."

True-dat! But, if you have an airworthy plane, you can fly when you want, and build when the weather's bad or you can't get to the airport long enough to make it worthwhile. So, you can have two aviation hobbies. One flying, the other building.

That's my plan, for what it's worth.

 

[pfarber]

Man, I struggle to believe that number. I helped build the "One Week Wonder" RV-12 at Oshkosh a few years ago. I was amazed at the quality and fitment of the kit. Even better, the subkits give you everything you need - airframe, engine, prop, avionics, wiring, switches, etc. and specific plans as to how to put it all together. Van's says 800-1000 hours to assemble that kit. I can't imagine a BD-4 would be even close. You could spend 100 hours planning and ordering your FWF and panel, plus the thousand other details that are spelled out for you in <say> an RV-12.

There is almost no riveting in a BD. Sure there are blind rivets, but the prep for a blind rivet in 1/10th of what a shop formed rivet takes.

The RV wing is a traditional multispar/rib skin arrangement. The BD comes with ribs you glue in place and then glue the skin to. You can build both BD wings in less than a day.

The construction of the BD is designed for ease. The lattice frame is bolted together. A lot less work. The skin is glued on. You can blind rivet it if you like, but fitting the skin, gluing and applying pressure takes maybe 1-2 hours per side.

The one week wonder you cite is not a comparison. They are answering questions, and have a continuous stream of new people that would break any workflow. Its a cool marketing gimmick, but its not a real life scenario... how many pro's are standing by to help???

 

[kyleb]

The one week wonder you cite is not a comparison. They are answering questions, and have a continuous stream of new people that would break any workflow.

Not really. The WWW was built by teams of builders who were selected based on prior building experience. As I recall, the teams worked four hour shifts, but that number is fuzzy in my memory. To your point, the composition of the teams changed every shift, but that wasn’t a detriment. Van’s had deburred all of the parts before delivering the kit to Oshkosh, so with the excellent workspace and well organized plans, the airplane went together incredibly quickly.

There was a guy running around with a microphone interviewing people and pointing things out to the crowd, but it wasn’t intrusive.

Once the wings were mostly complete, onlookers were allowed to pull rivets on the final wing skins, but that was out of sight/out of mind for the folks doing the bulk of the build.

It was a pretty interesting way to spend a couple of half days.

That said, it does sound like the Bede airframe goes together quickly. Any sense as to why the design hasn’t had more success?

 

[pfarber]

Not really. The WWW was built by teams of builders who were selected based on prior building experience. As I recall, the teams worked four hour shifts, but that number is fuzzy in my memory. To your point, the composition of the teams changed every shift, but that wasn’t a detriment. Van’s had deburred all of the parts before delivering the kit to Oshkosh, so with the excellent workspace and well organized plans, the airplane went together incredibly quickly.

There was a guy running around with a microphone interviewing people and pointing things out to the crowd, but it wasn’t intrusive.

Once the wings were mostly complete, onlookers were allowed to pull rivets on the final wing skins, but that was out of sight/out of mind for the folks doing the bulk of the build.

It was a pretty interesting way to spend a couple of half days.

That said, it does sound like the Bede airframe goes together quickly. Any sense as to why the design hasn’t had more success?

The BD and the Whitman series suffer from the common issues:. They are not 'sexy''sexy' airframes. Hershey bar wings, square boxy fuselage. No matter that they have insane cruise speeds for the HP or carry a very large payload.

Jim Bede was a good engineer but a horrible salesman. There are some black marks with the BD-5 and BD-17 causing fatalities.

The BD-4, very early on, did have a fuel shpply issue due to no dihedral. Even though thise issues are solved people are apt to believe one bad review rather than 100 positive ones.

The W-10 was my 1st choice until i found thr BD-4.

 

[Stevea621j]

I've always wondered how many homebuilders ever fly as many hours in their airplane as they spent building it.

I logged about 800 hours to build my CH640 from a quickbuild kit. I now have around 900 hours on it so I guess I made it past that milestone.

I would definitely recommend getting all the quickbuild components you can. I didn't build an RV, but I think the building process is pretty similar, basically measure, mark, drill, debur, assemble, rivet, repeat over and over, so you will become proficient quickly and won't miss out on any of the "fun" of building. I finished mine in a little over a year and was very happy to be flying rather than in my garage every morning at 4am for another year or two.

 

[Crashnburn]

The BD and the Whitman series suffer from the common issues:. They are not 'sexy''sexy' airframes. Hershey bar wings, square boxy fuselage. No matter that they have insane cruise speeds for the HP or carry a very large payload.

Jim Bede was a good engineer but a horrible salesman. There are some black marks with the BD-5 and BD-17 causing fatalities.

The BD-4, very early on, did have a fuel shpply issue due to no dihedral. Even though thise issues are solved people are apt to believe one bad review rather than 100 positive ones.

The W-10 was my 1st choice until i found thr BD-4.

Thanks for refreshing my memory about the BD-4 (now BED-4C). I found their build center will help you build a plane in 6 months, for $25K and 20 days of your time. That's my idea of a Quick Build!

Also, there are several popular options available; I'd do the curved windshield, swing wings, tri-gear, and two seat option, etc.

Edit: The curved windshield isn't available for th BD-4C.

 

[WDD]

Approaching retirement age here. Ironically I'll have more time to build a plane. But 10 years is now a substantial percentage of my remaining time. I'm not thinking of spending most of the rest of my life living alone in the basement pounding rivets. After a while I'll start talking to myself and calling the plane "precious".

Agree with previous post - 6 months? Sure, I'll bite. I like building things. 10 years? Nope.

 

[aftCG]

A lot of folks talking themselves out of building a kit here. I'll take the other side. I spent most of my adult life wanting to build a plane but money, kids, money, divorce, job and of course money always kept me from getting started.
I finally got the time and money but made the decision that some of you seem to be leaning towards - and bought a certified, flying airplane. It was a fantastic airplane and never left me crying after annual, but it always annoyed me that I couldn't work on it myself or change, well, anything without permission from the king. The Citabria is about as complicated as a wood stove and had evidence of being maintained by people with extra thumbs.

I took the plunge and bought a previously started Kitfox. The first owner/builder did excellent work but didn't finish. The second owner/builder did some work but proceeded to fubar the wings. He had also rolled back much of the work on the fuselage so I started from near zero there. In the package deal were new wings spars and pretty much two of everything including some expensive options. It was a very good price made even better as I have sold off the duplicate parts.

The Kitfox fills the same basic role as the Citabria: Two butts and some bags with the little wheel on the correct end. Cruise speed about the same, fuel load exactly the same but has a useful load at least 300 lbs higher. I kept the Citabria so I had something to fly while I was building but was surprised to find nice sunny days where I opted to build instead. I've since sold it because I needed the hangar space and the cash infusion to finish buying avionics, prop, etc.

I found motivation by talking to other builders who completed their airplanes, and was surprised that when I asked if they ever thought about building another plane they had already picked out their next project. One of them is actually kicking my a** building an RV-12 to go with his CH-701. Next week marks the 2 year point since I got the plane, but it was late fall of 2020 when I went from just staring at parts to drilling, bonding etc.

I started covering the wings last week and will probably be done with them in another week. I wouldn't turn down quick build features but my wings were straight up "slow build", and for rigging them to the fuselage - where the previous builder screwed up - I created tooling to make the job easy (and have made those tools available to other builders for free).

I make good money but I would rather be sanding my 10th rib with 10 more to go than sitting at my desk working for someone else. As far as life balance, I watch less TV. Oh no. It has not caused any friction on the domestic front. I can almost see the finish line from here, and there is potential I will fly the plane to Oshkosh this summer.

 

[Lndwarrior]

I've always wondered how many homebuilders ever fly as many hours in their airplane as they spent building it.

I will never catch up in flying hours to building hours.

After 5 years and 500 hours I still spend at least 2 hours working on my plane for every hour I fly.

There is an added pressure with homebuilt to constantly check, inspect, adjust, etc., that certificated pilots generally don't think about.

I may be generalizing here but when I was in a partnership in a Cardinal I never really thought about mx, other than the annual and "dealing with a problem when it came up".

With my experimental I pull the cowl probably every 10 hours. I'm constantly suspicious of the slightest change in the aircraft. For me, even though I know I built it right, and proven it over the last 5 years (or fixed it if it wasnt) I still second guess everything.

When I was flying Cessna's I simply trusted the airplane and my mechanic.

Not sure if it's partly because I've gotten older, but for me there was kind of a blind trust in Mr. Cessna that is not there with my homebuilt.

So yes, I will never fly my plane as much as I work on it. And no, I had no idea this would be the case when I started my build.

 

[flyingpreacher]

...and there is potential I will fly the plane to Oshkosh this summer.

If you do, let me know! I'd love to see it and hear your story about it in person!

 

[Brad W]

I will never catch up in flying hours to building hours.

After 5 years and 500 hours I still spend at least 2 hours working on my plane for every hour I fly.

There is an added pressure with homebuilt to constantly check, inspect, adjust, etc., that certificated pilots generally don't think about.

I may be generalizing here but when I was in a partnership in a Cardinal I never really thought about mx, other than the annual and "dealing with a problem when it came up".

With my experimental I pull the cowl probably every 10 hours. I'm constantly suspicious of the slightest change in the aircraft. For me, even though I know I built it right, and proven it over the last 5 years (or fixed it if it wasnt) I still second guess everything.

When I was flying Cessna's I simply trusted the airplane and my mechanic.

Not sure if it's partly because I've gotten older, but for me there was kind of a blind trust in Mr. Cessna that is not there with my homebuilt.

So yes, I will never fly my plane as much as I work on it. And no, I had no idea this would be the case when I started my build.

Interesting perspective. One that I can imagine myself having if I were to build....basically self doubt if I did it correctly or just being suspicious of the design.
I wonder if it could also be at least partially due to your just being more familiar. I mean...as a parallel example, when I was younger and would do 99.9% of any maintenance required for my cars/trucks, I was so very much more familiar with the systems and condition of all things over, under, and in. I recall many times driving and hearing a new rattle or having something fail & would know almost immediately what obscure little thing it was without even looking...because I noticed it looking suspicious the last time I was under there changing oil, or just more familiar with how it works, or whatever....
But now days, with cars being how they are, and with me being more busy so that I don't do a lot of the work myself...and so I don't notice things and don't think about it nearly as much.