To fly or not to fly with a new pilot...

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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Need advice.

Friend got his PPL 2 months ago (same week as me)
Prior to PPL training, had 2000 hrs in an ultralight (sporty somewhat aerobatic) aircraft.

At 120 hrs now, has purchased an RV. Wants to take me up.
since getting the plane 2 weeks ago, has done loops, rolls, split S, everything you can imagine.

I trust he is a good pilot and I want to go up with him but I am scared he will try and do maneuvers I am not comfortable with. I want to fly with him but I know if I say I am not comfortable with this or that, he might say "look, I have done this before, the plane is rated for X G's, etc"

We shared a CFI. CFI told me he has concerns that this person takes risks sometimes but he is a good pilot.

I like him and want to fly with him. I flew him a lot during our training but that was in 172.

There needs to be an aerobatic sign-off before you are allowed to do certain things. I am afraid I am going to **** him off if I say I can't fly with you but I am also not stupid. I have 2 kids and rarely take chances.

ugh. I need to just set him down and say look. I want to fly with you but we cannot do maneuvers under any circumstances that are aerobatic.

Flying just got weird. :(
 
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Set your personal minimums. If your minimum is not to go, let him know.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
There needs to be an aerobatic sign-off before you are allowed to do certain things. :(
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We don't need more rules to try to get people to use good judgement. :nono::nono:

Just talk to him about your concerns... Have the CFI do the same. If you aren't comfortable, explain why.
 
There is an aerobatic sign off, it's called continued life. Don't want risk, don't go. Want to experience more, go. It's your choice. How much aerobatic experience does your CFI have? How is he determining what the guy is capable of?
 
I have a rule that I do not do any aerobatics maneuvers (or anything more risky than normal flight) that was not prebriefed/preplaned on the ground. Keeps you from doing stupid things in flight.

I recommend you do a thorough prebrief with him and do not deviate from the flight plan.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Need advice.

Friend got his PPL 2 months ago (same week as me)
Prior to PPL training, had 2000 hrs in an ultralight (sporty somewhat aerobatic) aircraft.

At 120 hrs now, has purchased an RV. Wants to take me up.
since getting the plane 2 weeks ago, has done loops, rolls, split S, everything you can imagine.

I trust he is a good pilot and I want to go up with him but I am scared he will try and do maneuvers I am not comfortable with. I want to fly with him but I know if I say I am not comfortable with this or that, he might say "look, I have done this before, the plane is rated for X G's, etc"

We shared a CFI. CFI told me he has concerns that this person takes risks sometimes but he is a good pilot. He just does things too soon.

I like him and want to fly with him. I flew him a lot during our training but that was in 172.

There needs to be an aerobatic sign-off before you are allowed to do certain things. I am afraid I am going to **** him off if I say I can't fly with you but I am also not stupid. I have 2 kids and rarely take chances.

ugh. I need to just set him down and say look. I want to fly with you but we cannot do maneuvers under any circumstances that are aerobatic.

Flying just got weird. :(
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I knew this airplane and pilot:

http://aircrashed.com/cause/cATL99LA007.shtml

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001211X11202&ntsbno=ATL99LA007&akey=1

He had been out doing aerobatics on his own and took a friend up with him. Decided to show his friend what he had learned, didn't figure in the extra 200+ pounds in the seat behind him would alter the performance.
 
Fly with him or not. Don't pine for new rules or expect him to change his behavior.
 
Just tell him acro makes you sick if that's what you're worried about. If you're worried about general flight don't go.
 
If he is a reasonable person he will understand. No need to make up a story. Tell him straight that you don't want the additional risks that come with aerobatics and you have a family to think about. If he tries to say that it's perfectly safe, tell him maybe so but it's a risk you are not willing to accept. Reinforce that you would love to fly with him if he is willing to meet your request. If he does not, he is neither your friend nor someone you want to fly with anyway.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Me, personally, there's no way in hell I'm getting in that plane based on your description.

I rode with a guy I was a little uneasy about once. Won't be doing that again.
 
It's your decision to make after talking to your friend. If your not in agreement,don't go. Then the only thing that gets hurt are feelings.
 
why not rent a plane you both can fly and is not rated for aerobatics - like a nice Warrior. Problem solved.
 
Your worried about making him made ? Don't be. Gotta stay in your comfort zone. If he doesn't get it that's his problem.
 
Sounds like a two-way ego problem. Regardless of who is flying what airplane, when two pilots fly together, both have to agree on "the rules of engagement." Who is PIC, what if any responsibilities are shared, who has the controls in an emergency, etc. If either of you isn't comfortable discussing this with the other, then maybe you're better off not flying together in any kind of plane.
 
I spoke to our former CFI he said I need to stay away. The guy was fine in the 172 and had a great checkride but is hell bent on aerobatics but no way near ready. He has just in the last 3 weeks gotten tail wheel sign off, complex, HP ratings. CFI says since getting his PPL, he has seen him trying to kill himself out there doing a lot of unsafe things and angering other pilots around the airport.

I will fly with him in my plane and leave it at that.

As far as "two-way egos" I really have none when it comes to flying. I will always do what I feel is safest and willing to admit that everyone is likely a better pilot then me. I am here to learn and have fun.
 
All you have to do is tell him you throw up easy do aerobatics. Describe projectile vomiting and that you just ate a huge lunch. :rofl:

Talk to him and let him know your concerns. Enjoy the flight, and get your check book out. Might be the most expensive ride you'll ever have. ;)
 
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Geico266 said:
All you have to do is tell him you throw up easy do aerobatics. Describe projectile vomiting and that you just ate a huge lunch. :rofl:

Talk to him and let him know your concerns. Enjoy the flight, and get your check book out. Might be the most expensive ride you'll ever have. ;)
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I did an aerobatic ride in a Pitts list week. Was fun but those guys have 1000s of hours doing that stuff. This guy is just experimenting
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What is wrong with a CFI who is telling me do avoid something that he believes is unsafe?
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If he believes another pilot is unsafe he should be talking to that pilot, not spreading rumors. Its easy to say he is " endangering" other pilots to make himself look important. Gossiping about the way others fly is BS.

He has 2,000 hours flying aerobatic ULs, and so did I before my PPL. I would tend to listen to his side, but that is just me.

You have made up your mind. Stay away from this guy. But don't be a two face gossiping little girl. Tell him up front why you are not flying with him and what the CFI said behind his back, then stay away from him.
 
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He has sat the other pilot down numerous times and said he is not flying safely.
I went to the CFI and told him this man wants to take me flying and wants to do the Top gun crap. CFI said Don't go. I have tried telling him he is not ready for this stuff.

I am talking out of school here but I imagine there is a difference between a 75 HP ultralight and a 200 Hp RV
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
He has sat the other pilot down numerous times and said he is not flying safely.
I went to the CFI and told him this man wants to take me flying and wants to do the Top gun crap. CFI said Don't go. I have tried telling him he is not ready for this stuff.

I am talking out of school here but I imagine there is a difference between a 75 HP ultralight and a 200 Hp RV
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Yep, your mind was made up before you posted the thread. You are right he is dangerous. Stay away.
 
Geico266 said:
If he believes another pilot is unsafe he should be talking to that pilot, not spreading rumors. Its easy to say he is " endangering" other pilots to make himself look important. Gossiping about the way others fly is BS.

He has 2,000 hours flying aerobatic ULs, and so did I before my PPL. I would tend to listen to his side, but that is just me.

You have made up your mind. Stay away from this guy. But don't be a two face gossiping little girl. Tell him up front why you are not flying with him and what the CFI said behind his back, then stay away from him.
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Tell me what is wrong with a brand new pilot asking me to fly and me going to our instructor and asking if he feels this pilot is competent doing the things that he wants me to do in a plane that is miles different from the 172 we learned in?
 
Geico266 said:
Yep, your mind was made up before you posted the thread. You are right he is dangerous. Stay away.
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1. I was apprehensive

2. I posted on the forum

3. Last night after posting I called the instructor

4. Now my mind is made
 
My family has a history of aerobatic flying, something that I've not been able to do myself. But what I can share is their attitude.

My grandfather, starting this "hobby" when he was young, always took the attitude that he would fly anyone who wanted to go up, but no-one when doing aerobatics.

There is a risk involved with everything. Flying a plane from point A to point B for fun, travel, necessity, etc, can be a very calculated risk as long as you are making calculated, correct, responsible decisions. However, getting in the cockpit and doing aerobatic maneuvers comes with an increased risk that can be less calculated, no matter how calculated, correct, and responsible you are. There is simply too much that can go wrong that may be beyond your control as a human being.

For as long as he flew (he's still around, but doesn't fly anymore because of age), he would never take someone up and do maneuvers. He acknowledged the risks involved, and decided that he didn't want that responsibility in his hands. Fly from point A to point B? Sure, anytime. Aerobatic maneuvers? Sorry, but there is no room for anyone but the pilot.

I do realize that a lot of this is debatable, arguable, and given to personal views. Just thought I'd share, and that viewpoint has given me a pretty damn good basis when I started out flying.

-N
 
danamerfly said:
Sounds like a two-way ego problem. Regardless of who is flying what airplane, when two pilots fly together, both have to agree on "the rules of engagement." Who is PIC, what if any responsibilities are shared, who has the controls in an emergency, etc. If either of you isn't comfortable discussing this with the other, then maybe you're better off not flying together in any kind of plane.
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I have been in both seats of that situation. Definitely leads to increased awkwardness and tension if not properly briefed before the flight.

Now, if I'm left seat and pseudo "Mission Commander", then I bring up the topic of who does what and when and make sure the other pilot is comfortable with the situation. If I'm right seat, and the other pilot has not initiated the brief, I will open with "During the flight, will there be anything I can do to assist you? Is there anything you don't want me doing?" to get him talking about it.

When PIC, I don't object to the other pilot asking questions that lead me to consider and execute a needed action. Or asking a "Do you mind if I do this" for something that needs doing. But doing something unasked for or not when I'm ready for it isn't a desirable thing and could cause me to get behind the airplane in a key moment.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
1. I was apprehensive

2. I posted on the forum

3. Last night after posting I called the instructor

4. Now my mind is made
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Have you discussed with the pilot that you don't want to do any acro? If he accepts that (and you trust him to do what he says) I don't see a big problem going for a ride in his RV unless you have concerns about his flying in general. OTOH, if he tries to insist that you should experience acro with him or you don't feel he would accommodate your concerns once you're in the air then definitely stay away.

There's a pretty good chance that this pilot knows his limits and is staying inside them. Assuming he didn't have an accident or avoided some by pure luck in the thousands of hours of ultralight experience (including acro) he might well be quite capable of performing "loops and rolls" safely in the RV. The fact that he went after additional endorsements and ratings quickly suggests that he understands the value of advanced training which is a good thing.

One thing I'd bring up in any conversation about flying with him is what kind of acro instruction has he received from a more experienced RV pilot. If he's been doing this without anyone to teach him where the dragons lie he could easily be blissfully unaware of some dangers and that would be a red flag for me depending on what kind of acro he's been doing. I'd also want to know what he's done for spin training in that airplane as it's very easy to get into various spin modes when doing acro and recovery from some is neither instinctive nor guaranteed, especially in an experimental aircraft. If he has been taking some acro dual, his acro instructor would likely be a much better source for information about his skills and safety attitudes than your CFI.

And WRT your CFI, it is extremely common that CFIs (especially young ones and/or those who've done little beyond teaching people how to pass checkrides) to view any pilot's behavior that's outside the CFI's comfort zone as reckless. New pilots tend to take their CFI's opinions as gospel but as you gain more experience yourself you will likely learn that many CFIs have a rather narrow range of experience and their opinions about anything outside that range are suspect.

I'm not trying to say your CFI is wrong, just that you should consider the possibility that he is.
 
gismo said:
Have you discussed with the pilot that you don't want to do any acro? If he accepts that (and you trust him to do what he says) I don't see a big problem going for a ride in his RV unless you have concerns about his flying in general. OTOH, if he tries to insist that you should experience acro with him or you don't feel he would accommodate your concerns once you're in the air then definitely stay away.

There's a pretty good chance that this pilot knows his limits and is staying inside them. Assuming he didn't have an accident or avoided some by pure luck in the thousands of hours of ultralight experience (including acro) he might well be quite capable of performing "loops and rolls" safely in the RV. The fact that he went after additional endorsements and ratings quickly suggests that he understands the value of advanced training which is a good thing.

One thing I'd bring up in any conversation about flying with him is what kind of acro instruction has he received from a more experienced RV pilot. If he's been doing this without anyone to teach him where the dragons lie he could easily be blissfully unaware of some dangers and that would be a red flag for me depending on what kind of acro he's been doing. I'd also want to know what he's done for spin training in that airplane as it's very easy to get into various spin modes when doing acro and recovery from some is neither instinctive nor guaranteed, especially in an experimental aircraft. If he has been taking some acro dual, his acro instructor would likely be a much better source for information about his skills and safety attitudes than your CFI.

And WRT your CFI, it is extremely common that CFIs (especially young ones and/or those who've done little beyond teaching people how to pass checkrides) to view any pilot's behavior that's outside the CFI's comfort zone as reckless. New pilots tend to take their CFI's opinions as gospel but as you gain more experience yourself you will likely learn that many CFIs have a rather narrow range of experience and their opinions about anything outside that range are suspect.

I'm not trying to say your CFI is wrong, just that you should consider the possibility that he is.
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He is a VERY smart man. Literally genuis. He remembers detailed info like you wouldn't believe and can crunch numbers.

He has had Zero acro training. Never flown Acro with a CFI
He reads books and teaches himself to do these things.

And again 3 weeks ago did not have tailwheel, HP, or Complex
That is a lot of new stuff (in my opinion)

I am going to tell him today that I will fly to get lunch with him but I am not going to do any maneuvers. It's is a requirement by law to wear parachutes when doing any kind of aerobatic maneuvers. Plus that plane is only rated for aerobatics with one person in it. With two pilots the Weight and CG takes it out if the aerobatic category and puts it back in normal category.

THAT in addition to me just not being comfortable with it. I have no problem telling him I am not going to go if he insists on those things. I think if I say that, he will be fine.
 
Geico266 said:
If he believes another pilot is unsafe he should be talking to that pilot, not spreading rumors. Its easy to say he is " endangering" other pilots to make himself look important. Gossiping about the way others fly is BS.
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Aren't you doing the same thing with the CFI? You know, talking about how you decided he's a bad CFI who gossips and spreads rumors? :confused:
 
Geico266 said:
But don't be a two face gossiping little girl.
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Question. Why be a dick?

Somewhere between post 19 and 23 you decided this type of commentary was appropriate and helpful.

What don't you like about me? You don't know me.
If I were a female posting the same posts with my 2 month old PPL, would you make the snarky response?

If you wish to get into some sort of forum throw down, I can step up to the plate and throw verbal stones too but I don't see how it is helpful to you, me or anyone else.

If it is an ego thing, I will give you my address you can stop by and we can measure em and get it over with.

But for real I would like a legit answer as to what was your thought process when choosing that phrasing for your response.

It is the holidays. I am sitting here playing legos with my boy and reading your response just didn't sit right with me. I don't recall picking at you or anything.

So why?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
He is a VERY smart man. Literally genuis. He remembers detailed info like you wouldn't believe and can crunch numbers.

He has had Zero acro training. Never flown Acro with a CFI
He reads books and teaches himself to do these things.
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Genius does not equate to judgement. Reciting facts and crunching numbers does not make one a better pilot, it just impresses the gullible.

Listen to your gut...would you let one of children ride with this pilot? What does it get you to go for the ride (fear)? What do you give up (knowledge that you could have said no)?

The odds are stacked against you, you might (probably) make it through the flight just fine, but there is a higher level of risk involved. You recently took a ride with an experienced Pitts driver, would he ride with your pilot friend?

As humans, most times we avoid doing what should be done because the immediate pain (of hurting someone's feelings) is perceived to be greater than the future benefit that comes from making a good judgement call. I sometimes ask myself "In thirty days, looking back, what would I want my decision to have been?"

I have run into the situation of not wanting to fly with a pilot, and it is not a requirement in life that you confront everything head on, sometimes you can deflect the invitation without hurting feelings. FWIW
 
I'll echo the general consensus of this thread. You set personal minimums for everything you do, especially in flying - what weather you'll fly in, how short of a runway you'll fly into, what kinds of maneuvers you'll do on your own. Prudence is the only way you can fly without an unscheduled uncomfortable meeting between you and the ground. Your friend should understand that. If you want to say that you're not comfortable with the maneuvers/acrobatics - I think that's completely fine (that is, after all, what you're concerned about. If you thought he wasn't going to do those things, you wouldn't have a problem). Don't hesitate to stick to your guns and don't lie, but you decide how you want to frame it.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
1. I was apprehensive

2. I posted on the forum

3. Last night after posting I called the instructor

4. Now my mind is made
Click to expand...

1. You were looking for validation of your concerns by asking others a question you should have been able to answer yourself.

2. Seeing resistance here to your conclusion you called the CFI and validated your concerns by listening to, and engaging in gossip, and innuendoes about the pilot.

3. Your "grade school" childish approach to an adult issue confirms you are currently incapable of making decisions by yourself.

4. Tearing down another pilot so you feel superior.
 
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