tips for staying coordinated in a power on stall

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Seth.A

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Seth.A
Power on stalls freak me out. I get pretty gripped practicing them, and have a tendency to over apply right rudder which of course leads to a decent wing drop and loss of heading due to lack of coordination. "apply less right rudder" is the obvious solution to the problem, but doesn't address my inability to intuit whats happening.

One thing I'm not clear on is where I should be looking. In a power on stall visual references are of course limited. Should I just be staring at the turn coordinator?

Any tips for cleaning up this maneuver would be greatly appreciated!
 
I find peripheral vision and the seat of my pants are the best reference.

Make sure you avoid using the ailerons, but sounds like you're already doing that.
 
Pick a point on a cloud an fly to it. If you aren’t coordinated you won’t hold the point. Point doesn’t mean whole cloud.

Clear area, slow the airspeed to Vs1 +10 KIAS first so you beginning at a higher AOA. Simultaneous and slowly add pitch and power. If you begin the maneuver with a lot of energy in the plane the long it takes.
 
Look out the window at a ground reference and use the rudder to keep your DG at a point (use heading bug if you'd like) while maintaining wings level with your ailerons.
 
I like to watch the end of the cowl and try to keep it from yawing to the left or right. When it looks like it’s sitting still, you’re coordinated. If it’s drifting to the left (or the right) than add or remove rudder pressure to stop it.
 
Contact the examiner and ask if “coordinated flight” per the ACS means “ball in the center” or “zero side slip”. At high angles of attack, you’ve got asymmetric thrust, so you can’t have both ball in the center and zero side slip.
 
I thought they weren’t doing full stalls anymore? If not, smash some right rudder then recover at the stall horn.
 
Try to divide your attention outside (side, forward) and at the turn coordinator. Use your wings and horizon as references. Practice. You’ll get it.
 
Seth.A said:
One thing I'm not clear on is where I should be looking. In a power on stall visual references are of course limited. Should I just be staring at the turn coordinator?
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Not hardly. You should be looking at the horizon, nothing else. Between the wing tip and the nose cowl. Scan that as you approach the stall. You'll see bank, pitch and heading change information, so if you want to be banked but aren't changing heading—you're in a slip and will go over the top at the break and vice versa. Keep your eyes on the horizon and your problem will disappear.
 
I absolutely hated them too until my instructor demonstrated a few 'worst that could happen' (with plenty of altitude- uncoordinated & trying to correct with just aileron) and it really wasn't that bad. I'm still a student so I might be way off on this but I thought the purpose of the power on stall maneuver was to simulate a real life scenario of a stall during climb and give you the instinct to react to it. I try to approach it as just a regular VX climb that I let get a little too slow and try not to 'fake it' or anticipate it too much. I know during a regular climb I'm not staring at the turn coordinator. The outside reference is where I get my yaw information. The nose is usually too high to see the horizon but you can tell by looking down the side of the cowl through the side window if you are yawing.

My instructor also has me practice holding the plane in the power-on stall using rudder. Maybe like a power-on falling leaf? Really helped me dial in the amount of rudder needed and get comfortable in the stall.
 
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Try some partial power stalls. This will simulate either poor engine performance or high altitude takeoff which is where the power on stall is most likely to happen anyway and results in less "break" and less severe nose-up attitude. Once comfortable with this, gradually increase power during these until you are at full power.
 
Seth.A said:
Power on stalls freak me out. I get pretty gripped practicing them, and have a tendency to over apply right rudder which of course leads to a decent wing drop and loss of heading due to lack of coordination. "apply less right rudder" is the obvious solution to the problem, but doesn't address my inability to intuit whats happening.

One thing I'm not clear on is where I should be looking. In a power on stall visual references are of course limited. Should I just be staring at the turn coordinator?

Any tips for cleaning up this maneuver would be greatly appreciated!
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Seth—Are you talking about “straight ahead” power on stalls, or stalls in a turn? I have witnessed many students express anxiety over these maneuvers. I you happen to be training in a model aircraft with an overly large instrument panel, whenever the nose is high enough to stall (power on) the pilot can see nothing but sky—ABOVE the panel. The same problem when learning to loop—at a certain point when pulling the nose up one loses reference to the ground. The reason REFERENCE TO THE GROUND is so important is so the pilot can determine just how much right rudder pressure to apply. The fix is to look at the horizon along the SIDE of the cowling (since it’s no longer visible above the nose, nothing but sky). If the top of the instrument panel is flat, it makes it easier to tell if the wings are level with the horizon, BUT—-and this is the important part—-it’s essential that you look at where the horizon intersects with the side of the cowling. If you’re not holding enough right rudder the airplane will be yawing (and ultimately banking) to the left. The cure is to hold enough right rudder pressure to keep the airplane going straight ahead, aim it like a rifle barrel, while slowly increasing the pitch attitude until the stall. Most airplanes, when stalled (power on or off) wil do nothing untoward during the stall—the nose simply drops straight ahead. Even if the airplane is stalled in a turn, (so long as it’s in coordinated flight) the airplane does nothing unpredictable. Your anxiety is likely a result of witnessing what happen when the stall happens in uncoordinated flight—when the stall happens, a wing drops abruptly, hinting at a spin. Yikes! In the airplane I could teach you this in 5 minutes.
 
Maybe surprisingly, I have done power on stalls (high wing aircraft) looking to the left down the wing. It is actually fairly easy to tell if you are yawing or not. Sometimes, it is difficult to see over the nose well enough to keep from yawing.
 
eman1200 said:
I thought they weren’t doing full stalls anymore? If not, smash some right rudder then recover at the stall horn.
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Can’t speak for everybody, but one of our DPEs informs candidates that the ACS is very clear that a full stall must occur and expects the wing dropping is the earliest one can recover and perform the task successfully.
 
TCABM said:
Can’t speak for everybody, but one of our DPEs informs candidates that the ACS is very clear that a full stall must occur and expects the wing dropping is the earliest one can recover and perform the task successfully.
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interesting, that's the first time I've ever heard of that. usually it's either recover "at the first indication" or "at full stall". not even sure why someone would say "at wing drop" since I've personally never had a wing drop in a standard trainer. also, the acs IS very clear and has zero mention whatsoever of a 'wing drop' on a stall. so with your DPE, if you stall and don't drop a wing, do you fail?
 
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The Above is from the Airplane Flying handbook, 8083-3B: ....and 30 degrees is considered excessive in the ACS. It's a little less "violent" at 65% power. If the DPE is exceeding that, it becomes the CFI's task to discuss it with the DPE.
 
eman1200 said:
I thought they weren’t doing full stalls anymore? If not, smash some right rudder then recover at the stall horn.
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Some planes don't have those fancy horn-things. ;)

I watch the ball in the Luscombe. It can have a doozy of a wing-drop!
 
TCABM said:
Can’t speak for everybody, but one of our DPEs informs candidates that the ACS is very clear that a full stall must occur and expects the wing dropping is the earliest one can recover and perform the task successfully.
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The ACS says the heading +/- 10 must be maintained while initiating the stall. That implies once the stall occurs the heading is no longer a criteria. I would think stalling one wing and spinning and recovering would meet the stall criteria. Being able to recover from an accidental stall/spin seems more valuable than being able to perform a perfect stall on command.
 
eman1200 said:
... "not even sure why someone would say "at wing drop"
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“at Wing drop” is my paraphrase and was the wrong choice of words. Buffet would probably be the more correct term I should have used. BL: the DPE makes it clear that stall horn ain’t enough to successfully complete the task.

Ron Raty said:
The ACS says the heading +/- 10 must be maintained while initiating the stall. That implies once the stall occurs the heading is no longer a criteria. I would think stalling one wing and spinning and recovering would meet the stall criteria. Being able to recover from an accidental stall/spin seems more valuable than being able to perform a perfect stall on command.
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Agree, see above for my clarification. Interestingly, the ACS does include the following statement in the power on stall task: “Return to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the evaluator.”
 
Seth.A said:
Power on stalls freak me out. I get pretty gripped practicing them, and have a tendency to over apply right rudder which of course leads to a decent wing drop and loss of heading due to lack of coordination. "apply less right rudder" is the obvious solution to the problem, but doesn't address my inability to intuit whats happening.

One thing I'm not clear on is where I should be looking. In a power on stall visual references are of course limited. Should I just be staring at the turn coordinator?

Any tips for cleaning up this maneuver would be greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

One other suggestion I will add to all the other comments: make sure you are getting to the stall in a timely manner. When I was doing power on stalls, my stalls with the instructor were coordinated and uneventful. When flying solo, I consistently suffered wing drop. As it turned out, without the instructor weight in the plane, it required more pitch to induce the stall, additional pitch I wasn't providing. As a result, I was just doing really really slow flight until something would cause one wing or the other to finally give it up. Don't delay making the stall happen. Don't do a whip stall, but when the plane slows to stall speed (you can feel it), make it happen.
 
There is a big difference in how a Cessna trainer stalls and a Piper trainer stalls. My experience in a C152 was that the nose suddenly dropped. My experience in my taper wing Warrior is mushy controls until I horse it over the edge with more pitch. You can fly a taper wing Piper fluttering on the edge of stall until the engine overheats.

In both planes, a stable power-on stall is all about rudder.
 
Center the ball. The end.

Power on stalls to a break are a waste of time. Get into a high power airplane and you'll never do full power stalls. Learn to feel the stall and relax some back pressure to keep it flying. That recognition is the point of the exercise.
 
Stewartb said:
Power on stalls to a break are a waste of time. Get into a high power airplane and you'll never do full power stalls. Learn to feel the stall and relax some back pressure to keep it flying. That recognition is the point of the exercise.
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Perhaps, but he is going to have to do one for his checkride.

How do you define a "high power" airplane? 200+ HP? How many of us lowly PPLs fly one? My guess is the OP is not training in one.
 
Have an instructor go up and show you "The worst thing that can happen" a few times.
It's not as bad as you are probably thinking it is.

I was terrified of them for the longest time.
 
What I'm talking about are garden variety straight ahead power on stalls in a 172. I fairly consistently drop the wing and recover off heading (which is evidently not an issue per the ACS?). It sounds like what I need to practice is just staying coordinated in a high nose up attitude without looking at the ball.

Ron Raty said:
make sure you are getting to the stall in a timely manner
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I think this is one of the things that freaks me out, but when I try to speed it up I got told to slow down so... Forcing a stall in a 172S at full power makes me wonder how anyone could get themselves into that situation accidentally.

j1b3h0 said:
The fix is to look at the horizon along the SIDE of the cowling
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Having researched the topic this does seem to be the solution. My CFI suggested looking at a cloud if they aren't moving, but this seems like a ridiculous thing to practice. There's a prominent CFI on youtube that keeps referring to the 'lindbergh reference' - essentially the view out of the lower side of the windshield - as the key reference point.

I've not gotten to fly in a while (seattle in december, go figure) but I've got some good tips for the next time I go up. Thank you all for the responses!
 
TCABM said:
“at Wing drop” is my paraphrase and was the wrong choice of words. Buffet would probably be the more correct term I should have used.
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Thanks for that clarification - "buffet" makes a lot more sense than "wing drop".

- Martin
 
The slower you are when you set up the demonstration, the less steep you will end up at the stall.
And if it feels like you're pitching up excessively, take a quick peek at the horizon to your left. With that reference you will likely see that it's not all that steep.
 
ktup-flyer said:
Use your peripheral vision. “Lindbergh reference” is what it’s called.
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I still get pushback when I tell people to scan the entire view from the wingtip to the nose, as far forward as you can still see the horizon.

It drives me nuts seeing pilots stare straight forward without moving their heads when the pitch attitude is nose high, such as during landing or power on stalls...

Flying "real" airplanes (with tailwheels) and helicopters made me figure that out.
 
bflynn said:
Repetition.
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This would be my suggestion. And I don't know if it will help but I found that after I started flying banners which often involved edge of stall slow flight for hours at a time, keeping the ball centered during power on stalls became much more second nature for me. So maybe spend a couple hours doing slow flight either with the stall horn waking up or just a knot or two faster than that to get a bit more comfortable with what your feet need to be doing while at the end of the envelope?
 
IK04 said:
I still get pushback when I tell people to scan the entire view from the wingtip to the nose, as far forward as you can still see the horizon.

It drives me nuts seeing pilots stare straight forward without moving their heads when the pitch attitude is nose high, such as during landing or power on stalls...

Flying "real" airplanes (with tailwheels) and helicopters made me figure that out.
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Yep. If you fly anything with any kind of power, you’re going to be staring at the sky if you just look forward anyway.
 
Domenick said:
Perhaps, but he is going to have to do one for his checkride.
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That's a silly requirement. The FAA wants you to perform a stall maneuver that may kill you if repeated in a real takeoff or go-around. There's no value to taking a power-on stall to a break other than to demonstrate to the pilot why he should never do that again. It's sorta like the FAA's dismissal of mandatory spin training. 99% of stall-spins will occur at low altitude where recovery is unlikely. There isn't much point to demonstrating the maneuver when avoidance is a better strategy. A competent pilot should recognize an imminent power-on stall and find the sweet spot to keep the plane climbing at a positive rate at the minimum airspeed the plane can maintain. That's the stuff that'll save your bacon when you need it.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
...I found that after I started flying banners which often involved edge of stall slow flight for hours at a time, keeping the ball centered during power on stalls became much more second nature for me. So maybe spend a couple hours doing slow flight either with the stall horn waking up or just a knot or two faster than that to get a bit more comfortable with what your feet need to be doing while at the end of the envelope?
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I strongly agree--for all of us. Slow flight experience teaches much. It shows how slowly you can fly the plane. It demonstrates what an incipient stall feels like. Both those abilities instill a bit more confidence. Make a note of how slowly you can control the plane at all your flap settings. Doing this allowed me to slow my short-short final approach with confidence. (Both ends of my rather short home drome have displaced thresholds.) POH states 63 kts with full flaps. I no longer am concerned with an over-the-fence-speed below 60 kts.

The one thing to watch out for during slow flight is engine temp. Airflow through the engine compartment is reduced.
 
During primary training, I had a similar problem with rudder use, but during crosswind landings rather than departure stalls. The problem was that I was thinking about how much rudder to apply (which is about as effective as thinking about how far to turn the steering wheel when you're learning to drive, or how hard to push on the accelerator).

In my case, the chief instructor even took me out on a 10,000 ft runway with a sharp crosswind, and had me track the whole length in landing configuration at about 6 ft AGL. It helped a bit -- enough that I passed my PPL flight test -- but I still really didn't get it.

Then one day soon after, I was landing a rental 172 in a sharp crosswind, and I suddenly realised I wasn't thinking about how much rudder or aileron to use to track the centreline, but just deciding where I wanted the plane to be, and my arms and legs were automatically doing the right thing to put it there. It's feels like magic when it happens, but as others have posted, it's really just practice and repetition until you've built up muscle memory.
 
write-stuff said:
The slower you are when you set up the demonstration, the less steep you will end up at the stall.
And if it feels like you're pitching up excessively, take a quick peek at the horizon to your left. With that reference you will likely see that it's not all that steep.
Click to expand...

Yup. I see a lot of people rip right into a stall from cruise. Ugh. Power off stall? ACS even describes it as the scenario of coming in for landing. A lot less time to let the ball get away from you going from 65 knots to 45 instead of 100 knots to 45.
Set it up properly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Something else to try.
In the 172, try keeping heading with aileron if needed, while keeping 1/2 ball to the right until the stall occurs, then relax hands and feet as it stalls.
 
Stewartb said:
That's a silly requirement. The FAA wants you to perform a stall maneuver that may kill you if repeated in a real takeoff or go-around. There's no value to taking a power-on stall to a break other than to demonstrate to the pilot why he should never do that again.
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Another one of those high-wing low-wing arguments. Although not in the ACS, every student I teach learns to recover, at altitude, from fully developed stalls. With mastery, they can be recovered from with a loss of just a couple of hundred feet. I agree that low altitude stalls cause a lot of fatalities. But I respectfully disagree that pilots shouldn't be trained to recover them.
 
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