Tips for Fighting Dutch Roll in Single Engine OPS?

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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ARFlyer
I've discovered my arch-nemesis in my training.... Engine Cuts. I can't seem to get the jet to stabilize with out first Dutch rolling the plane for several minutes. If the engine cut happens at V1 I'll often find myself off heading by a large margin and fighting the plane.
 
Have you tried not cutting the engine?
 
Don't pull the airplane into the air until you've got control of it...use rudder on the ground to stabilize it, then rotate.

It's not actually Dutch roll you're dealing with, but rather the tendency to compensate for a yaw change (engine failure) with aileron rather than rudder.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Don't pull the airplane into the air until you've got control of it...use rudder on the ground to stabilize it, then rotate.

It's not actually Dutch roll you're dealing with, but rather the tendency to compensate for a yaw change (engine failure) with aileron rather than rudder.
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I'll do that and as soon as I rotate to the recommend attitude the plane will start rolling side to side. The instructor said it just my use of the rudders that's causing the issue. I can't seem to figure out how to position and control the rudder to keep it from rolling.

My multi training had no issues during single engine flight. It was natural to react correctly. Now I'm chasing myself as I try to get the plane under control.
 
You don't "position" the rudder...you adjust it for varying conditions to maintain control, and one thing that varies the amount of rudder required is rotating on takeoff.

If you're moving the ailerons, you're not properly compensating with rudder. I have yet to train anyone who OVER-compensates with rudder, so I'd guess you're under-compensating.
 
Are you fighting a yaw damper or some other automated system?
 
No experience here but didn't you say it's a swept wing jet?

That leading wing is going to go up and the trailing is going to go down, and you're going to have to anticipate it, as well as know any correction you add is likely to start it moving the opposite direction.

"Chasing" is probably accurate. Once it starts to move back the other way, the correction is probably too late.

Just a guess.

Don't let it accelerate once you have the first correction in, get it out soon enough to not overshoot. It's going to keep moving without a foot position change, so don't think of it as a single "correction" but a stopping of acceleration that has to continue after the first correction and a wing that will exacerbate it if you don't get the first correction out soon enough.
 
Engage the yaw damper as soon as you're allowed to. Also, try not to disengage it if you'll be doing a single engine go around. It will help you considerable.

(Disclosure: I've never flown a jet, but this bit of wisdom has helped my on my King Air sim rides.)
 
bnt83 said:
Are you fighting a yaw damper or some other automated system?
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Anymouse said:
Engage the yaw damper as soon as you're allowed to. Also, try not to disengage it if you'll be doing a single engine go around. It will help you considerable.

(Disclosure: I've never flown a jet, but this bit of wisdom has helped my on my King Air sim rides.)
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The yaw damper is not engaged unless we are above V2+15.

If I can get the yaw trim in I can control the issue a lot better. However, since I am in training they want me to learn how to correct the loss of power with out the trim.

It seems if I move the rudder a fraction of an inch it causes a large yaw change.
 
ARFlyer said:
The yaw damper is not engaged unless we are above V2+15.

If I can get the yaw trim in I can control the issue a lot better. However, since I am in training they want me to learn how to correct the loss of power with out the trim.

It seems if I move the rudder a fraction of an inch it causes a large yaw change.
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Try controlling heading with rudder...use the heading bug to tell you if you have too little or too much rudder.

Remember...even though it's a full-motion sim, it still doesn't feel or fly like an airplane. Scan is king!
 
MauleSkinner said:
Try controlling heading with rudder...use the heading bug to tell you if you have too little or too much rudder.

Remember...even though it's a full-motion sim, it still doesn't feel or fly like an airplane. Scan is king!
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I'll try that during my next session, thanks.

Yeah the sim has already given me some very odd physical reactions. The instructor forgot to tell us to close our eyes when he stopped the simulation on the runway. I had a overwhelming full body sensation that I was violently falling forward. It was so strong I had to stabilize myself, on the glare shield, with both hands. I'd have never felt anything like that before.

The instructor laughed because we never moved in our seats. BUT it sure felt like we were!!!
 
It seems if you can use mostly engine #2 since it is centerline it is helpful. When you lose an engine advance all 3 forward but make sure #2 leads and it can help cut down on the tendency to yaw if you have in deed lost #1 or #3. Thats how I do it in a jet.
 
ARFlyer said:
I'll try that during my next session, thanks.

Yeah the sim has already given me some very odd physical reactions. The instructor forgot to tell us to close our eyes when he stopped the simulation on the runway. I had a overwhelming full body sensation that I was violently falling forward. It was so strong I had to stabilize myself, on the glare shield, with both hands. I'd have never felt anything like that before.

The instructor laughed because we never moved in our seats. BUT it sure felt like we were!!!
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I tend to get nauseous when in the sim and moving on the ground. If I'm right seat, I'll just close my eyes, or look down. That's doesn't work so well when I'm left seat. :sigh:
 
Never heard of low altitude Dutch Roll.

In my experience V1 cut issues are always the pilot not using enough rudder and / or not scanning the slip indicator. At rotation just look outside and use rudder to keep the heading. Once in the air scan the ball/brick (a lot) and MAKE SURE you're coordinated. Do not accept a ball/brick to the side...even a little bit. The plane HAS to fly straight to get maximum performance as even a slight loss can send you into the houses on a V1 cut. Min power and min speed at low altitude make for little margin for error.

BTW, what type of plane?
 
Anymouse said:
I tend to get nauseous when in the sim and moving on the ground. If I'm right seat, I'll just close my eyes, or look down. That's doesn't work so well when I'm left seat. :sigh:
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Get a set of Sea Bands...they seem to minimize the effect for most people.
 
the 145 sim is a bi...ch on one engine. get the yaw damp on at v2+15 it helps a lot, i cannot fly the single engine ILS without it on. for the V1 cut don't pull hard at V1 let it get a couple of knots faster on the ground and use that time to get the rudder you need and pull evenly. the sim is just a computer and it flys that way, put in an input and it will move something.
 
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