Tips for a very long XC (6-8 hours)?

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geoffeg

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geoffeg
A friend has offered to let me "borrow" his Piper Cherokee 140 while he's out of the country for a few months. The plane is in Buffalo, NY and I'm in St. Louis, MO so another pilot friend and I will be flying up to Buffalo, NY commercially to fly the plane back to St. Louis. My local pilot friend and I recently got checked out in a Piper Cherokee 140 near St. Louis and we both felt it was an easy plane to fly. We're both rather fresh private pilots, both with around 100 hours. Neither of us has an instrument rating, but both of us are working towards it. So, I'm asking for some words of wisdom and experience:

* What's the longest amount of time you'd fly a single leg? I haven't flown anything longer than the long XC required for my PPL. The flight from Buffalo to St. Louis would be two 3.5 hour legs. (The plane has no autopilot)
* Trying to find a few days of good VFR weather across the eastern half of the US is nearly impossible so my idea is just to try and find a window that looks "ok" and head to Buffalo and deal with the weather along the way. I've budgeted at least one non-flying, contingency day to deal with weather/mechanical issues.

Finally, any advice you have or words of wisdom from experience would be greatly appreciated. Tips for dealing with fatigue, route planning, etc.

Thanks,
Geoff
 
The two legs would work fine on the trip. I would look to fly early in the am ,and fly until the weather gets bad,and if the weather stays good ,continue on.
 
Sounds like fun! Fly low, see the country, take your time. I'd stop in every state to cross them off your list.
 
I fly about 2-3 hour legs. I find my bladder, need for caffeine, and the desire to stretch my legs usually are shorter than any endurance numbers on the airplane.

Also, I like to end the day at a bigger controlled field -they're more likely to stay open late. I've been caught a few times at uncontrolled fields after dark with nobody around to help me get to a hotel.
 
Have fun, catch an Indians game, check out Put-in-bay, make it an adventure. Swap legs frequently and do some hood/safety pilot time.
 
hook_dupin said:
Also, I like to end the day at a bigger controlled field -they're more likely to stay open late. I've been caught a few times at uncontrolled fields after dark with nobody around to help me get to a hotel.
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I did that exactly once. Never again. Always know where the towered fields are and use them.

To the OP, 3 to 3.5 hour legs are good. Two hour legs are okay too. I've done five and six hour legs...not so much fun. Monitor fuel use and land before it gets to one hour remaining. Headwinds can/will affect things.

Fly early and be willing to call it a day early....even if it means stopping just 50 miles short of the planned destination.

Also plan to use flight following - ATC will help you in many different ways, ya just hafta ask (weather, nearest airport, airspace, etc).

Also - it's a Piper so carry a screwdriver with plus and minus tips...never know what might need tightened
 
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Another pilot and I are picking up a plane in Chicago tomorrow and flying it back to New York. I'll let you know how it goes.
 
Clark1961 said:
I did that exactly once. Never again. Always know where the towered fields are and use them.

To the OP, 3 to 3.5 hour legs are good. Two hour legs are okay too. I've done five and six hour legs...not so much fun. Monitor fuel use and land before it gets to one hour remaining. Headwinds can/will affect things.

Fly early and be willing to call it a day early....even if it means stopping just 50 miles short of the planned destination.

Also plan to use flight following - ATC will help you in many different ways, ya just hafta ask (weather, nearest airport, airspace, etc).

Also - it's a Piper so carry a screwdriver with plus and minus tips...never know what might need tightened
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And a Philips plus a 7/16th socket or wrench, & 9/16th socket or wrench. The 9/16th is used for the wheel pants. The 7/16th is just about everything else.
 
This is great adventure for some low-time pilots. No way on using only towered fields. Just call the FBO ahead of time at a fuel stop and see if you can make arrangements. On the way to and from Yellowstone in a couple low & slows we had the best time at the small GA airports. People put the key on the visor, lent us their cars, gave us a ride, whatever. It was a hoot. Just call places ahead of time.

If that doesn't work, then head for the bigger ones.
 
Do you already have WingX or Foreflight on an iPad? If not, that would be the first thing I would recommend. There is a wealth of information in these programs that will be so useful for a long flight like this. Even if you have to borrow an iPad (with built in GPS) from a friend and download the 30 day free trial of either program, I would highly recommend it. If you download WingX be sure to watch the WingX youTube videos to show you how to get the most out of the features in the program. Don't forget you will still nxeed a backup plan just in case the iPad died for some reason. For a trip that long you would also want to take a USB power adapter for your power port to extend the iPad battery life.

Second, plugging Buffalo and St. Louis into WingX it shows going over the middle of Lake Erie for the direct route. Obviously you would want to fly the coast line so you can get to land quick and easy if problems arise.

Third, I would recommend taking advantage of flight following. For trips like this over areas you have not flown before, it is nice to have ATC assistance.

Others have stated to use towered fields. If you are flying during the day, you may find untowered airports quicker and easier to get in and out of. If you prefer untowered fields, KVNW would be about the halfway point of your trip. If things are going well and weather permits, you might want to push on a bit farther to KMZZ for your fuel and rest stop. I usually prefer on two leg trips making my first leg the longest since I am fresher and not as tired. That leaves me a shorter flight for the second leg when I'm starting to get more fatigued.

And last but not least, enjoy the flight and take plenty of pictures.
 
Thanks for the tips everyone.
* We are hoping to takeoff from Buffalo early in the AM shortly after the sun rises. I'll throw a few screwdrivers and wrenches in my flight bag.
* I'm a devoted Foreflight user and will have Foreflight on two iPads (my iPad Mini + a borrowed iPad 2) plus paper sectionals as backup. We will carry backup batteries and a USB power adaptor.
* I'm using KSGH as the halfway point as my parents live near there and I'm at least slightly familiar with the area.

I will definitely use flight following and I've been wondering if it's worth filing a VFR flight plan? I can't imagine there's a lack of radar coverage along the route but there may be times, depending on clouds, that we have to duck down to 2000ft AGL or so.
 
I wouldn't worry about the flight plan, but FF is a good idea. You can change your destination easily enough just by telling the controller.
"Ragtag Center, Cherokee AlphaWhiskey needs to change destination to Hillbillyville, Hotel Bravo Victor"
controller may ask why, I usually just say "I'm hungry."
 
If you will be using flight following, a flight plan is not necessary since you will be telling ATC your intentions. I would also recommend swapping gas tanks in the Cherokee every 30 minutes or so to balance out the weight. I have my engine monitor set to notify me every 30 minutes to make the swap.
 
geoffeg said:
Thanks for the tips everyone.
* We are hoping to takeoff from Buffalo early in the AM shortly after the sun rises. I'll throw a few screwdrivers and wrenches in my flight bag.
* I'm a devoted Foreflight user and will have Foreflight on two iPads (my iPad Mini + a borrowed iPad 2) plus paper sectionals as backup. We will carry backup batteries and a USB power adaptor.
* I'm using KSGH as the halfway point as my parents live near there and I'm at least slightly familiar with the area.

I will definitely use flight following and I've been wondering if it's worth filing a VFR flight plan? I can't imagine there's a lack of radar coverage along the route but there may be times, depending on clouds, that we have to duck down to 2000ft AGL or so.
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Can you borrow or buy a handheld radio if you don't have one ? Then keep it charged. Also do you use Stratus with foreflight? May be a good investment. I guess I'm overly cautious. I also fly with battery backups.
 
MickYoumans said:
I would also recommend swapping gas tanks in the Cherokee every 30 minutes or so to balance out the weight.
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Back when I owned my Cherokee 140, I'd take off (starting off with even amounts in both tanks) and climb on the left tank and fly for 15 minutes then switch tanks, and use 30 minutes on each tank thereafter. The takeoff and full power climb to reach cruising altitude burned much more fuel than level cruise, so this technique helped to obtain better left-right fuel tank balance.
 
asgcpa said:
Can you borrow or buy a handheld radio if you don't have one ? Then keep it charged. Also do you use Stratus with foreflight? May be a good investment. I guess I'm overly cautious. I also fly with battery backups.
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They're VFR. Why bother with a handheld? Weather on stratus is nice to have, but frequent stops to check the weather will work too. Eyeballs are the best weather avoidance tool.
 
I do have a handheld I keep in my flight bag but I do not have a Stratus. If someone wants to buy me one, I'll happily send you my address!
 
The longest XC I've done is 6 hours (Three out, Three back), in one day. By hour 3 I was tired, by 4, or 5, I was ready to get out of the plane, and by 6 I was just done. If you had the time, I would break it up into two, two hour legs, go low and slow, and do some sightseeing. Getting there is half the fun :)
 
geoffeg said:
Thanks for the tips everyone.
* We are hoping to takeoff from Buffalo early in the AM shortly after the sun rises. I'll throw a few screwdrivers and wrenches in my flight bag.
* I'm a devoted Foreflight user and will have Foreflight on two iPads (my iPad Mini + a borrowed iPad 2) plus paper sectionals as backup. We will carry backup batteries and a USB power adaptor.
* I'm using KSGH as the halfway point as my parents live near there and I'm at least slightly familiar with the area.

I will definitely use flight following and I've been wondering if it's worth filing a VFR flight plan? I can't imagine there's a lack of radar coverage along the route but there may be times, depending on clouds, that we have to duck down to 2000ft AGL or so.
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Immediately before Springfield Beckly is Madison County, KUYF. Just south of i-70. E/W runway and easily the cheapest fuel in the area. The receipt printer takes FOREVER. Probably 12 nm's east of your destination though.
 
don't drink anything that morning
 
I do 10 plus hour trips quite frequently. I actually do hydrate myself either the evening before or several hours before. When I am picking up a strange plane I plan on first stop maybe 45 min to hour away. I usually top off fuel, check oil again and see if anything fell off. Lol. I make my legs about half the endurance of plane as I don't know how accurate gauges are or exact fuel burn. Especially for first stop or two. I always try to enjoy the trip. Ff is a good idea if for no other reason that you will get more comfortable flying in the system for when you get your instrument rating. 6 hours will be a fun trip and after it's done, you won't think anything of another trip just like it. You may have to alter your course for weather but that's just part of the adventure. As far as tools. I carry a screwdriver usually. I figure it's not to hard to find a shop if I need one and the usually are very helpful. Especially small field shops. Have fun!
 
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I've done really long days, but I find that much more than 6-7hrs of flying during a day gets me very tired. As mentioned, splitting it over two stops is great. Have fun!
 
The longer leg first is also good advice. So is flying west early so you don't have the white wall in front of you the whole time. Definitely want to hydrate along the way on a trip like that or risk a bad headache on the back end.
 
I've done a single leg almost six hour long XC once (KCCR to KSAF), no auto pilot either.

Never again. 4 hours is now my personal maximum.

One stop should work well for this flight IMO.
 
Strongly recommend flight following. It has provided very useful input to me on at least 4 occasions when other planes would have gotten closer than comfortable. There have also been a couple of occasions when planes got closer than comfortable and flight following didn't say a word. The Cherokee is about as simple and reliable as it gets. I had one from 92 until earlier this year. Sure learned a lot on my first long cross country.
 
With a few exceptions, fuel prices are inversely proportional to how boring the place is that you're stopping.
 
Given that you are checked out in the PA-28, how many hours can you fly, and at what power setting, to land with a safe reserve? You have time in your fuel tanks, not miles. With no experience with the fuel gauges, the early estimates should be conservative.

How low will your fly a tank, 1/4, 1/8, empty? It would be nice to have what ever reserve you decide on in one tank and not split between two tanks. Is 1/4 really 1/4 and not 1/8th, or does that last 1/4 go faster than the previous 1/4s?

Decades since I flew a PA-28, what - 36 gallons @7-8gph? So 3.5-4 hours before landing to verify fuel consumption, have lunch, and repeat. Alternating two pilots makes a big difference and a much easier flight. A little weather cooperation should make for a nice day trip.

I am mixed on flight following, new geography with lots to see and point out to each other - what, was that call for us? Keep it a fun trip.
 
Just got the Cherokee back to KFRG and I'd much rather fly commercial from Chicago to NY! I came with another pilot so we broke it into 2 legs. We took off from KDKB and landed for a fuel/bathroom break at KBKL just a few miles north of Cleveland. We switched seats got so ething to drink andest and headed back. We initially planned to stop in KAVP or KIPT for another fuel stop/short rest but after talking in the air, wedecided we both felt fine and just continued on all the way to KFRG. Total time was about 9 hours.
 
I like to rehydrate myself within 20 minutes of landing. That way my brain is hydrated, but my bladder hasn't hit the panic button yet.

Have fun!
 
As to the fuel question: My minimums are one hour reserve in this situation. I'm not personally familiar with the aircraft's fuel gauges and fuel burn. I'm adding at least one GPH to whatever the POH estimates and will be logging the fuel burn at each stop with a fuel stick.

Right now I'm just trying to figure out the weather. It seems like it's going to be nearly impossible to get one day of VFR from Buffalo to St. Louis so I guess I'll have to plan on being "stuck" somewhere for a day or two along the way.

BTW, I have to put in a good word for the briefers at WX-BRIEF. I called yesterday and while they couldn't provide a standard "outlook briefing" with a departure time more than 48 hours out the briefer was happy to look at standard weather forecasts along the route and discuss weather and options with me (go further south, leave a day earlier, etc). I do enjoy getting a briefer that will go (what I would consider) above and beyond.

So it's back to looking at forecasts in Buffalo, St. Louis and the points along the route in between.
 
35B33 said:
Decades since I flew a PA-28, what - 36 gallons @7-8gph? So 3.5-4 hours before landing to verify fuel consumption, have lunch, and repeat.
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Cherokee 140 actually has 50 gallons max capacity and even if you use 10 gph as a number for easy math that gives you a no-reserve endurance of 5 hours in the air. The longest leg I ever flew in my old Cherokee was about 4.5 hours and I landed with about 12 gallons left in the tank so still had well over an hour's worth of fuel remaining. But 4.5 hours is too long to sit in one seat without a break.
 
geoffeg said:
Right now I'm just trying to figure out the weather. It seems like it's going to be nearly impossible to get one day of VFR from Buffalo to St. Louis so I guess I'll have to plan on being "stuck" somewhere for a day or two along the way.



So it's back to looking at forecasts in Buffalo, St. Louis and the points along the route in between.
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I dunno, I just returned from an 11 day trip from NY to the midwest and back, all of it VFR. While traveling that distance does often mean crossing a front, there just aren't that many consecutively crappy days this time of year. Often, just a few hours will make the difference between being able to fly or sitting on the ground. As others have said, flying early in the day, before the thunderstorms develop, may improve your odds. And, remember that rain doesn't mean you can't go VFR, as long as ceilings and visibility are acceptable, and you can avoid thunderstorms. I did my entire outbound trip, from NY to Madison, WI in one day. On the return, I did have to overnight in Fort Wayne unexpectedly, but that was mostly due to the fact I was flying at night and there was widespread ground fog and low visibility back in NY.

I would second the recommendation for the Stratus, as I've found it to be invaluable on multiple long XCs, even if you have to borrow one for this trip. Of course, you can get the same information from Flight Watch or the weather briefers, it's just not as convenient.

Taking a (very) quick look at the prog charts and the forecasts, the latter part of this week looks pretty good for the entire route, once that system moves east/northeast out of the Buffalo area.
 
two recommendations:

1. Make sure you go pee before you take-off

2. Use that plane to get your instrument rating while you have it!
 
CTLSi said:
Get yourself a Little John http://www.sportys.com/Pilotshop/product/13087

Take some sport bars...and bottled water...

If you start to encounter rough air or weather, get down and wait it out...
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I prefer Travel Johns... very compact (until used!), disposable and spill-proof. They have silica gel in each one that absorbs 100%. Each one holds a liter and those suckers do not spill a drop once everything is gelled (takes 10-15 sec). My family uses these a lot.

I do XCs 3.5 to 4.5 hours fairly often. I have used both FF/Stratus and WingX/ClaritySV at different times - both are fantastic. I do have an AP so I'm spoiled that way but you will have a fellow pilot with you so you can switch off.

I know you have FF but will you have ADS-B WX in flight? I think that is so helpful for tactical decision-making while en route on long XCs, esp. VFR. You can gather so much more info in a shorter time by looking at a FF map of winds, ceilings, vis, etc. than you ever could by calling FlightWatch. You can watch precip movement and make sure it is really going to stay away or whatever - lets you make decisions sooner.
 
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petrolero said:
I prefer Travel Johns... very compact (until used!), disposable and spill-proof. They have silica gel in each one that absorbs 100%. Each one holds a liter and those suckers do not spill a drop once everything is gelled (takes 10-15 sec). My family uses these a lot.

I do XCs 3.5 to 4.5 hours fairly often. I have used both FF/Stratus and WingX/ClaritySV at different times - both are fantastic. I do have an AP so I'm spoiled that way but you will have a fellow pilot with you so you can switch off.

I know you have FF but will you have ADS-B WX in flight? I think that is so helpful for tactical decision-making while en route on long XCs, esp. VFR. You can gather so much more info in a shorter time by looking at a FF map of winds, ceilings, vis, etc. than you ever could by calling FlightWatch. You can watch precip movement and make sure it is really going to stay away or whatever - lets you make decisions sooner.
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I like the idea of Travel Johns, But I always have my Daughter sitting beside me on long XC's. Maybe when she goes to college and the wife gets promoted to First Officer, I can take longer legs.
 
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