Time for an Eng. Overhaul?

pigpenracing said:
We did a major overhaul a few years ago on the 172. The engine shop removed and re-installed the engine. We did new Lycoming cylinders and not overhauled units. The complete bill was $11,200 for a 0 time major. That price included R&R engine.
It helps to check around and have connections. I would never pay $25,000 to overhaul a Lycoming 320!
I talked to the engine guy about the high dollar overhauls. He just couldn't figure out where their prices come from. I guess they charge double because they give a warranty???
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If the shop wrote 0 on the logbook, they don't know what they are doing. Only Lycoming can reset an engine to zero. Oh yeah, and Western skyways charged me over $20k for the overhaul. Local shop did the R&R with all new hoses. WS charged me for a new oil cooler and installed the old one. I had to argue with them to make it right. And the warranty paperwork was good only for making a paper airplane.
 
Salty said:
I don’t think the roller tapper thing is true for all lycoming engines.
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All remans are being machined for roller tappets and the last prefix is changed to E to identify.
 
pigpenracing said:
We did a major overhaul a few years ago on the 172. The engine shop removed and re-installed the engine. We did new Lycoming cylinders and not overhauled units. The complete bill was $11,200 for a 0 time major. That price included R&R engine.
It helps to check around and have connections. I would never pay $25,000 to overhaul a Lycoming 320!
I talked to the engine guy about the high dollar overhauls. He just couldn't figure out where their prices come from. I guess they charge double because they give a warranty???
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Would you mind sharing the shop name? That's about half the price of any quote I have been able to obtain on an O-360 OH. Thanks!
 
idahoflier said:
Would you mind sharing the shop name? That's about half the price of any quote I have been able to obtain on an O-360 OH. Thanks!
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Get the details as well:
New cylinders or overhauled?
New limits or just within spec?
Is the 320 parallel or angle valve cylinders?
 
teejayevans said:
Get the details as well:
New cylinders or overhauled?
New limits or just within spec?
Is the 320 parallel or angle valve cylinders?
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He said new Lycoming cylinders, so even if it was OH to spec that's still a smoking deal!
 
murphey said:
If the shop wrote 0 on the logbook, they don't know what they are doing. Only Lycoming can reset an engine to zero. Oh yeah, and Western skyways charged me over $20k for the overhaul. Local shop did the R&R with all new hoses. WS charged me for a new oil cooler and installed the old one. I had to argue with them to make it right. And the warranty paperwork was good only for making a paper airplane.
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0 SMOH
We know they didn’t make it brand new :-(
 
Update: The pitting is on a single cam lobe... The quote I was given to only replace the cam shaft was not too far from an overhaul cost. They also said once they open the case, if they have to replace bearings and things like that, it'll probably be very close to a overhaul. So i guess overhaul it is...

pigpenracing said:
We did a major overhaul a few years ago on the 172. The engine shop removed and re-installed the engine. We did new Lycoming cylinders and not overhauled units. The complete bill was $11,200 for a 0 time since major overhaul. That price included R&R engine.
It helps to check around and have connections. I would never pay $25,000 to overhaul a Lycoming 320!
I talked to the engine guy about the high dollar overhauls. He just couldn't figure out where their prices come from. I guess they charge double because they give a warranty???
Click to expand...

murphey said:
If the shop wrote 0 on the logbook, they don't know what they are doing. Only Lycoming can reset an engine to zero. Oh yeah, and Western skyways charged me over $20k for the overhaul. Local shop did the R&R with all new hoses. WS charged me for a new oil cooler and installed the old one. I had to argue with them to make it right. And the warranty paperwork was good only for making a paper airplane.
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All the overhaul prices i found have been 28k-32k. Factory rebuild is $36k. How can anyone get a overhaul for that cheap??

yakdriver said:
You have to split the case to get the cam in and out and that requires taking pretty much the whole engine apart. Of course I've only built four Lycomings so I guess I don't know enough yet. Western Skyways charges $8,000 to do a teardown inspection witch is complete disassembly and re assemble. Perts extra.
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I guess we will be doing the Factory Rebuild since its $5k more than the overhaul, you get roller tappets, and a zero time engine. This is just shocking because when I bought the plane i fully expected to get the full 2,000 hours, so i just feel like i'm losing out on 600 hours of engine life. Its pretty depressing...
 
JC150 said:
Update: The pitting is on a single cam lobe... The quote I was given to only replace the cam shaft was not too far from an overhaul cost. They also said once they open the case, if they have to replace bearings and things like that, it'll probably be very close to a overhaul. So i guess overhaul it is...





All the overhaul prices i found have been 28k-32k. Factory rebuild is $36k. How can anyone get a overhaul for that cheap??

My guy charged $2500 labor. That included pulling the engine, building the new engine and re-installing the engine.
He gave me a list from J&J airparts for everything needed to overhaul a 320. I ordered everything on the list.
All the big parts (case, crank, rods ete.....) were sent to aircraft specialties to get reworked and yellow tagged. I payed them direct.
Once the parts came in the engine was assembled. I payed 0 dollas and 0 cents markup on parts.
This guy does lots of engines in the area. He did my 320 and also a 540 for my Christen Eagle.
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See the engine shops quote the job thinking that every part in your engine is junk.
Then they reuse most the stuff and still charge you for new. You never see a credit for the parts they didn't buy.
Right?
I am sure sometime they do get cores that are trashed but most the time not.
I have been around this for awhile. I hear lots of horror stories from big shops making mistakes.
I like my 1 man engine shop instead of 20 hands on my engines.
 
pigpenracing said:
See the engine shops quote the job thinking that every part in your engine is junk.
Then they reuse most the stuff and still charge you for new. You never see a credit for the parts they didn't buy.
Right?
I am sure sometime they do get cores that are trashed but most the time not.
I have been around this for awhile. I hear lots of horror stories from big shops making mistakes.
I like my 1 man engine shop instead of 20 hands on my engines.
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True. I did my own disassembly and decided what to replace and what not. In my case I replaced nearly everything, but it was a special case. I’m really glad I did it myself because if I hadn’t I would have either felt cheated or they would have put back parts I wouldn’t have wanted them to. Being able to see it first hand and make the decisions is priceless.
 
pigpenracing said:
See the engine shops quote the job thinking that every part in your engine is junk.
Then they reuse most the stuff and still charge you for new. You never see a credit for the parts they didn't buy.
Right?
.
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Wrong!
Assuming you are going to a respectable engine shop, they will follow mandatory service bulletin that specifies a list of parts that must be replaced despite their condition. Cam, crank, case are always priced separately. Cylinders can be overhauled or replaced with new. All this affects the price. They check the parts using ultrasonic machine, which your local guy probably doesn’t have.
They replace all parts that have been updated.
 
teejayevans said:
Wrong!
Assuming you are going to a respectable engine shop, they will follow mandatory service bulletin that specifies a list of parts that must be replaced despite their condition. Cam, crank, case are always priced separately. Cylinders can be overhauled or replaced with new. All this affects the price. They check the parts using ultrasonic machine, which your local guy probably doesn’t have.
They replace all parts that have been updated.
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The local guy is going to send out parts he intends to reuse to get yellow tagged by specialists. Just like 90% of the “big guys” do.
 
teejayevans said:
Wrong!
Assuming you are going to a respectable engine shop, they will follow mandatory service bulletin that specifies a list of parts that must be replaced despite their condition. Cam, crank, case are always priced separately. Cylinders can be overhauled or replaced with new. All this affects the price. They check the parts using ultrasonic machine, which your local guy probably doesn’t have.
They replace all parts that have been updated.
Click to expand...

All aircraft engine builders go by the same guidelines. I guess you didn't read my post above.. All my parts were sent to aircraft specialties for yellow tag and all the must replace items were bought from the list J&J sent.
We are not talking about building weed eater engines here.
So your telling me you get a quote for a $30,000 overhaul and the case and crank are bad it will be close to $50,000 when its done because they will charge for a new crank and case? NO!
On that $30,000 quote if all your parts check out perfect they will not give you a credit either. Its gonna be the quoted price and you get a overhauled engine....
I like my route much better and I will continue to use my 1 man operation engine guy.
 
pigpenracing said:
All aircraft engine builders go by the same guidelines. I guess you didn't read my post above.. All my parts were sent to aircraft specialties for yellow tag and all the must replace items were bought from the list J&J sent.
We are not talking about building weed eater engines here.
So your telling me you get a quote for a $30,000 overhaul and the case and crank are bad it will be close to $50,000 when its done because they will charge for a new crank and case? NO!
On that $30,000 quote if all your parts check out perfect they will not give you a credit either. Its gonna be the quoted price and you get a overhauled engine....
I like my route much better and I will continue to use my 1 man operation engine guy.
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No they won’t give you credit, they assume the case, crank are good. If it’s not, you pay for new parts. This is explained up front.
So you’re telling me if your 1 man operation finds the crank is bad he swallows the cost of a new crank?!
 
I'm sure I could find this online but what's a roller tappet and why do I want it?
 
Challenged said:
I'm sure I could find this online but what's a roller tappet and why do I want it?
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In layman’s terms, instead of the fixed end of the tappet running over the camshaft lobes, a roller bearing is used. So instead of scraping on the lobes, it rolls. Same idea behind ball bearings or roller bearing versus a shaft running thru a fixed hole.

I am a layman so corrections welcomed.


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It pretty much eliminates the cam spalling problem on Lycomings.
On the subject of overhauls, there is many different ways and prices and it depends on the engine shop or IA or wherever you get it done. A field overhaul done to factory new specs by the right person can be as good or better than a factory reman. A factory overhaul done by the guy wanting to get out of there on a Friday afternoon might not be any good. I had an engine done by a shop that was highly recommended and it ended up a POS that spun a rod bearing at 140hrs. He was hustling to shove it out the door right before he went bankrupt and it ended up costing me a new overhaul and almost an airplane. It comes down to overhauling an engine is a crapshoot and you have to arm yourself with as much info as possible and then it is a crapshoot. You do pay a premium with a factory or big shop engine but you usually get a good warranty that they will honor if any problems.
 
yakdriver said:
you do pay a premium with a factory or big shop engine but you usually get a good warranty that they will honor if any problems.
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Big shops and factory also have a long record of quality, otherwise you would surely hear about these days. If some 1 man operation does it, they maybe good, or not, if going that route I would certainly ask around and they would have had done more than a few overhauls.
My old mechanic sent his engine out to a big shop. When I asked why he didn’t overhaul it himself...he laughed, used the surgeon analogy; do want the guy that has done 1000s or the one whose done 1.
 
It is also difficult to find anyone willing to perform a field overhaul. I have looked and every local mechanic and/or shop I have spoken with won't do a field overhaul...
 
teejayevans said:
No they won’t give you credit, they assume the case, crank are good. If it’s not, you pay for new parts. This is explained up front.
So you’re telling me if your 1 man operation finds the crank is bad he swallows the cost of a new crank?!
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????
No I pay for whatever parts are needed... My engine guy did not quote me $30,000 to overhaul my engine. He quoted me $2500 labor. That was to pull the engine, built the new engine and replace the engine. I payed for all parts needed and the total bill was $11,200.
Yes it would have been more if I needed a crank or case, but I didn't..... Even if I had to buy a crank and case the bill still wouldn't be close to the $30,000 quotes other shops give.
Some people think the more expensive price is better. You must be one of those guys. LOL!
 
The engine overhaul on my previous 150 was just over $11k, but the case had to be repaired and a few parts failed. All the moving parts were done at Divco/Rick Romans and other reputable shops.
Engine overhauls are a ripoff.
 
Tom-D said:
Ever try to find an A&P and offer Real Money to supervise?
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Unfortunately I don't have a hangar so that's not an option. Well, maybe I don't need a hangar. IDK. Anyway, I haven't found any local A&P with a shop willing to do a field overhaul. But if there was a local A&P that would supervise and sign off the field overhaul you bet I would pay "Real Money"!
 
idahoflier said:
Unfortunately I don't have a hangar so that's not an option. Well, maybe I don't need a hangar. IDK. Anyway, I haven't found any local A&P with a shop willing to do a field overhaul. But if there was a local A&P that would supervise and sign off the field overhaul you bet I would pay "Real Money"!
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You can always move the aircraft to where the work can be preformed.

Why do they need a shop.
I just built this in my garage.
 

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murphey said:
If the shop wrote 0 on the logbook, they don't know what they are doing. Only Lycoming can reset an engine to zero. Oh yeah, and Western skyways charged me over $20k for the overhaul. Local shop did the R&R with all new hoses. WS charged me for a new oil cooler and installed the old one. I had to argue with them to make it right. And the warranty paperwork was good only for making a paper airplane.
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Any authorized person can Zero time since major overhaul. All it requires is a proper sign off in the engine maintenance records.

This engine mets FAR 43.2 as Zero since major overhaul to new standards with a total time of XXXX.
It's magic, that engine is Zero since major, start the clock again. Remember TT does not count in Part 91, Nor does TSMO.
And I can even give you a new log book.
 
Tom-D said:
You can always move the aircraft to where the work can be preformed.

Why do they need a shop.
I just built this in my garage.
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That's what I'm planning to do. I have about 250 hours till TBO, so 2 - 3 years to plan...

Nice engine!
 
Send your engine to Tom. $3500 + gaskets + camshaft (~$2000) and you are back in business.
 
pigpenracing said:
????
No I pay for whatever parts are needed... My engine guy did not quote me $30,000 to overhaul my engine. He quoted me $2500 labor. That was to pull the engine, built the new engine and replace the engine. I payed for all parts needed and the total bill was $11,200.
Yes it would have been more if I needed a crank or case, but I didn't..... Even if I had to buy a crank and case the bill still wouldn't be close to the $30,000 quotes other shops give.
Some people think the more expensive price is better. You must be one of those guys. LOL!
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Sometimes you get what you pay for, but not sure where you got the $30,000 for a O320???
A quick check of big name shop it is $17,900.
 
teejayevans said:
Sometimes you get what you pay for, but not sure where you got the $30,000 for a O320???
A quick check of big name shop it is $17,900.
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The argument doesn't work unless the alternative price is inflated.
 
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