Time builder

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Cloudbase

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Cloudbase
Hello everyone,

I got my pilot license about a month ago and now I am in the process of building time for instrument rating. My problem is that I can't secure enough time on the school's airplane. It is either in maintenance, with the CFI, or rented by another student or pilot. I am thinking of buying an airplane to use through my instrument and commercial training. My budget is around 250k. What would be a good option for me? Is it better to buy a new S-LSA like Bristell or Evektor or a used older certified aircraft? I did all my training on a Cessna 172 but prefer a low wing aircraft.
 
If your preference is low wing, I'd buy a nicely equipped Cherokee 180. As you progress in your flying and (potentially) need to upgrade, that will be an easy airplane to sell when the time comes.
 
The fly in your Metamucil is going to be finding an airplane with satisfactory IFR equipment, particularly if you intend real IFR conditions in your training. Otherwise, almost any plane would make a good time builder & commercial trainer.

as I understand it, if the instrument is in the plane, you can be required to show instrument proficiency with it on a check ride. avoiding relics like ADF & DME come to mind as good ideas. But a modern IFR suite is also profoundly expensive.

have you checked on clubs with IFR planes nearby? Or shares in a partnership in a well-equipped platform?
 
There are those that say to buy your last airplane first. So the question becomes, what's your last airplane? Or on a shorter horizon, what kind of flying do you think you'll be doing 5 years from now and what airplane fits that mission?
 
I understand fearing the ADF approach as it needs training and proficiency. But DME?

Get a blue chip plane that will be easy to flip, with no or few stories in its past. You're gonna pay a lot right now. I'd probably want a 80-100k plane in this market.

Can you dry lease time from a pilot at your airport? Or partner up? Aircraft ownership deserves its own checkride, and the lessons can be grim and expensive. You'll want to lean on someone's experience here and not go it alone "just" for training.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Learning relics like ADF and DME also come to mind as good ideas.
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Or required… I’m about to get the VFR mins restriction imposed by a major airline during my type rating removed so I can operate effectively up in Alaska! MD-80.

And yep, we got and use ADF.

What we ain’t got is GPS RNAV LPV…. go figure.
 
schmookeeg said:
I'd probably want a 80-100k plane in this market.
...
Aircraft ownership deserves its own checkride, and the lessons can be grim and expensive.
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Which brings to mind some advice that pops up from time to time: spend half your budget on the airplane and the other half on upcoming maintenance you'll face a few months into ownership.
 
asicer said:
There are those that say to buy your last airplane first. So the question becomes, what's your last airplane? Or on a shorter horizon, what kind of flying do you think you'll be doing 5 years from now and what airplane fits that mission?
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I would want a faster cross country capable machine. Mooney, SR20, Columbia come to my mind. However, I don't think I can get reasonable insurance rate with my limited experience.
 
Cloudbase said:
I got my pilot license about a month ago and now I am in the process of building time for instrument rating. My problem is that I can't secure enough time on the school's airplane. It is either in maintenance, with the CFI, or rented by another student or pilot.
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Fly it at night.
 
Is there only one place to rent from in your area?
 
Cloudbase said:
I would want a faster cross country capable machine. Mooney, SR20, Columbia come to my mind. However, I don't think I can get reasonable insurance rate with my limited experience.
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A Mooney M20C might be doable. What would help your case is time in type, or at least retract time. Are you able to rent a retract? How about a SR20? High perf? A good chunk of your insurance bill will be due to hull value and M20C's are pretty cheap. SR20's a little less so. What you should do is talk to an insurance person and work out the various scenarios (retract time vs none, high perf time vs none, 1st year vs 2nd/3rd/4th year, etc). If it's just the first couple of years that's expensive, lower your purchase budget and pay for the insurance hit from your initial cash pile.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Learning relics like ADF and DME also come to mind as good ideas.
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NDBs are shutting down by attrition. Even some VORTACs are being decommissioned. I’m sure there was whining from the Birddog Brigade when VORs were first introduced. With Bluetooth in our headsets now streaming our playlists, we don’s even need NDBs for AM radio entertainment on long flights.

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports-and-airspace/navigation-and-charting/navaid-decommissioning
 
Waco YMF. Barnstormers has them for $150k-$275k.

Some of the new ones can be IFR certified.
 
Cloudbase said:
I would want a faster cross country capable machine.
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That sounds like a different want than a time builder.

For a time builder who cares how fast it is? Total cost per hour. If really a time builder is the want.

asicer said:
There are those that say to buy your last airplane first.
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This one, I do NOT agree with. I think some people that do this end up with an aircraft that is substantially beyond their current pilot skills. Which occasionally has a catastrophic outcome.

asicer said:
Which brings to mind some advice that pops up from time to time: spend half your budget on the airplane and the other half on upcoming maintenance you'll face a few months into ownership.
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@asicer - This totally makes sense.
 
I would get something a little faster, I have an Arrow and I really like it. Now airplanes have maintenance issues, so if your club plane is down for mx, it’s likely you’ll be down for mx too in your airplane. Things just break all the time, it’s difficult / time consuming to find parts and for your mechanic to be available too / they are all busy, and if you are flying it a lot, you’ll definitely get to a point before your annual is due that you’ll start to ask yourself if you should do a 100 hour or the annual early.

Find something you like with decent equipment, maybe a Bonanza or Mooney, they get the extra speed. I would not spend 250k on your first airplane, since you’ll likely beat it up training, get something that has the IFR equipment that you need for about half the price.
 
rhkennerly said:
NDBs are shutting down by attrition. Even some VORTACs are being decommissioned. I’m sure there was whining from the Birddog Brigade when VORs were first introduced. With Bluetooth in our headsets now streaming our playlists, we don’s even need NDBs for AM radio entertainment on long flights.

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports-and-airspace/navigation-and-charting/navaid-decommissioning
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If you think learning NDB or DME procedures is only valuable for flying those procedures, we definitely disagree on what makes a good instrument Pilot and/or how those procedures should be flown.
 
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For $250K you can buy a very nice, IFR equipped, traveling airplane. Even holding some aside for any issues and upgrades you decide you must have. And having some for first year insurance.

You can get a nice Mooney 201, well equipped for that much. Many other nice options that can be a long term airplane if not your forever. Heck, if you are saying $250K for purchase, and you can cover the expenses, you can get a nice Mooney 252 with nice avionics. Here is a 231 with 530WAAS and Aspen, GTX-345, with about 400 hours to TBO for about half your budget - https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/221803019/1980-mooney-m20k-231-piston-single-aircraft

My recommendation is, if you buy an airplane with an ADF, learn to fly NDB approaches, but remove it (you can leave the hole) for your checkride.

Obviously I am biased to Mooneys, but many other choices. You are even in the range for Bonanzas. Piper Arrows are well within your budget. There are 284 Piston Single Aircraft in the US for sale on Controller for under $200,000. 356 if you can go up to $250,000.
 
I have a question about ‘time building’, sorry, my CFII is long expired.

I own a plane, much if the time underutilized. I do have a work acquaintance that has a child(adult) ‘building time’. This pilot is already a CFI, but hours are still a little slow.

I wouldn’t be comfortable letting a newbie take off in my retract without me sitting there. I don’t need to log anything, don’t need to fly, just sit there.

Could he ‘time build’ in my plane, me sitting there? For the sake of discussion he would never pay for more than 1/2 the fuel costs.
I’ve heard of pilots idling at the hold short/ run up area, ‘building time’. This idea seems better, Econ speed of course.
 
sourdough44 said:
I have a question about ‘time building’, sorry, my CFII is long expired.

I own a plane, much if the time underutilized. I do have a work acquaintance that has a child(adult) ‘building time’. This pilot is already a CFI, but hours are still a little slow.

I wouldn’t be comfortable letting a newbie take off in my retract without me sitting there. I don’t need to log anything, don’t need to fly, just sit there.

Could he ‘time build’ in my plane, me sitting there? For the sake of discussion he would never pay for more than 1/2 the fuel costs.
I’ve heard of pilots idling at the hold short/ run up area, ‘building time’. This idea seems better, Econ speed of course.
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I don't quite understand your question. If your friends child has a CFI, and you are just sitting there while he flies the plane, of course he can build time that way, if you are generous enough to allow that for 1/2 the fuel cost. Check with your insurance requirements first.
 
A brand new S-LSA is going to be the most fuel efficient and most likely the least maintenance cost. It would probably lose the most resale value compared to buying one of the used aircraft that are of the high demand models. With an S-LSA, are 2 seats going to be enough for you? You need to read the operator's manual on any S-LSA to see if they allow it to be used in IMC conditions. All the S-LSA aircraft that I have been involved in allow IFR (if equipped) and pilot appropriately rated, but only in VFR weather conditions.
 
sourdough44 said:
I have a question about ‘time building’, sorry, my CFII is long expired.

I own a plane, much if the time underutilized. I do have a work acquaintance that has a child(adult) ‘building time’. This pilot is already a CFI, but hours are still a little slow.

I wouldn’t be comfortable letting a newbie take off in my retract without me sitting there. I don’t need to log anything, don’t need to fly, just sit there.

Could he ‘time build’ in my plane, me sitting there? For the sake of discussion he would never pay for more than 1/2 the fuel costs.
I’ve heard of pilots idling at the hold short/ run up area, ‘building time’. This idea seems better, Econ speed of course.
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PDPIC. Worthless hour but hey, they’re hours.
 
Yes, can be better hours out there, worse too. I could mix in a few tips.
 
dmspilot said:
Fly it at night.
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I don't like night flying. If the engine quits, low chance to make a safe landing. Also, ceiling and visibility drops really fast after sunset in south TX. Good point however about trying to rent the airplane an hour before Sunset and fly a short x-country.
 
Pinecone said:
For $250K you can buy a very nice, IFR equipped, traveling airplane. Even holding some aside for any issues and upgrades you decide you must have. And having some for first year insurance.

You can get a nice Mooney 201, well equipped for that much. Many other nice options that can be a long term airplane if not your forever. Heck, if you are saying $250K for purchase, and you can cover the expenses, you can get a nice Mooney 252 with nice avionics. Here is a 231 with 530WAAS and Aspen, GTX-345, with about 400 hours to TBO for about half your budget - https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/221803019/1980-mooney-m20k-231-piston-single-aircraft

My recommendation is, if you buy an airplane with an ADF, learn to fly NDB approaches, but remove it (you can leave the hole) for your checkride.

Obviously I am biased to Mooneys, but many other choices. You are even in the range for Bonanzas. Piper Arrows are well within your budget. There are 284 Piston Single Aircraft in the US for sale on Controller for under $200,000. 356 if you can go up to $250,000.
Click to expand...

I love Mooneys. Never flew in one, but did a lot of research on them and I like how they look. They are just more airplane than I can handle at this time. I am now starting to think that it might be a better idea to get my instrument rating first and buy the airplane after that.
 
Get a Piper Archer that has what you need for avionics. You can re-sell it if you want, or just hang on to it. You can get a very good one for your budget, and have plenty left over.
 
lsaway said:
A brand new S-LSA is going to be the most fuel efficient and most likely the least maintenance cost. It would probably lose the most resale value compared to buying one of the used aircraft that are of the high demand models. With an S-LSA, are 2 seats going to be enough for you? You need to read the operator's manual on any S-LSA to see if they allow it to be used in IMC conditions. All the S-LSA aircraft that I have been involved in allow IFR (if equipped) and pilot appropriately rated, but only in VFR weather conditions.
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I am okay with a 2 seater. I have very limited experience in aircraft maintenance and don't want to enter a rabbit hole. This is why I was leaning toward a new airplane that I can afford. I don't know if they can fly in true IMC, turbulence, or high wind. It is always windy here and this is a real concern for me. It seems the consensus here is that they aren't worth what they cost.
 
Cloudbase said:
I am okay with a 2 seater. I have very limited experience in aircraft maintenance and don't want to enter a rabbit hole. This is why I was leaning toward a new airplane that I can afford. I don't know if they can fly in true IMC, turbulence, or high wind. It is always windy here and this is a real concern for me. It seems the consensus here is that they aren't worth what they cost.
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It is good that you know your limitations as a new pilot. As you gain more experience & training, you will develop more confidence. It is going to be difficult to avoid turbulence and high winds. This is just a part of being a pilot. Your instrument rating instruction should be preparing you for IMC conditions. I would say to wait on buying an airplane until you have a little more experience so you can narrow down what suits you best. However, if you are really having trouble renting an airplane, you might be better buying a low time, low engine hour airplane with intention to resell after you are finished up. You don't want your training interrupted because an airplane is not available to rent, or the weather conditions are outside of your comfort level when your rental slot is open.
 
Cloudbase said:
I did all my training on a Cessna 172 but prefer a low wing aircraft.
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For $250K there are some great low wing options for newer pilots. As mentioned above, check out the Cherokee line. Depending on your ultimate mission you've got everything from a PA-28-140 up through to a turbo lance or turbo Arrow..

$250K is a good budget

I'd shy away from something more advanced for a new pilot. While I do agree in principle with the "buy your last airplane first" there's also a progression that happens as your flying career evolves.

You could also save a ton of money and buy a Tomahawk.. low wing, economical, fun.
 
Cloudbase said:
I love Mooneys. Never flew in one, but did a lot of research on them and I like how they look. They are just more airplane than I can handle at this time. I am now starting to think that it might be a better idea to get my instrument rating first and buy the airplane after that.
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No harder to fly a Mooney than an Arrow. Just need to be a bit more precise on airspeed control on final.

Buy the airplane you want, and then you will fly it and enjoy it. Buy an airplane just to buy an airplane and you will be buying another airplane.
 
Cloudbase said:
I love Mooneys. Never flew in one, but did a lot of research on them and I like how they look. They are just more airplane than I can handle at this time.
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Short body M20C is pretty tame. Long body and later medium body (M20K and later) less so.
I am now starting to think that it might be a better idea to get my instrument rating first and buy the airplane after that.
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Not a bad idea. You don't know what you don't know.
 
Dan Thomas said:
What's the insurance cost for a low-time PPL in a 300-hp antique full-IFR taildragger?
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Who cares? Eat year 1, fly 100 hrs, year two will be much lower.

Here is what to expect as a C195 Captain:

Picture this. You are clear to land. As you ease the throttle back, your Jacobs engine purrs like a kitten. You gracefully slip in base to final to touch down on the 1000 footers in two point configuration. The tail lowers like the setting sun in Maui, and you taxi off on the first exit. The first exit every time. Tower clears you to preferential parking “with me” so he can ask you what year she is. Rampers are fighting to park you. The FBO girl wants to marry you. They give you the courtesy car for the week, if that is long enough for you. Airport burger is on the house. And you son, I mean Sir. Yes, Sir Cessna 195 owner. You have arrived! Welcome back Sir!
 
RE: buy the plane you want

There are limits to that.. I want an Aerostar, but it would be inappropriate to buy that shortly after my PPL and do my multi, IFR, etc., in it. I can't imagine advising someone to purchase an Extra, Meridian, etc., either. I've been flying since I was 14 and have logged about 120 hrs per year the last 8 years and still don't think I'm ready for the Aerostar (although a big part of that is financial)

PA-28/C-172/C-182/Bonanza/Mooney/Cirrus .. sure-ish. They're mostly close enough. But there's a reason people train in C-172 and PA-28, both are very forgiving. Easy to say "just be more precise on your speed" but when you see how some people fly with their lack of airspeed, altitude, and heading discipline I don't think it's always wise to push someone into a Mooney or a Bo right out of the gate. Hell, even a 182 demands more discipline than a 172. And a 210.. forget it. Pull the power and flare like you would in a 172 and it's coming down like a rock and prop striking

If someone really is looking to build time cheaply go with the tried and true, PA-28 or C-172. Every single random billy-bob mechanic knows them, parts are available, and they're honestly not bad planes. And it'll be much easier to sell when you're done.
 
Tantalum said:
RE: buy the plane you want
PA-28/C-172/C-182/Bonanza/Mooney/Cirrus .. sure-ish. They're mostly close enough. But there's a reason people train in C-172 and PA-28, both are very forgiving. Easy to say "just be more precise on your speed" but when you see how some people fly with their lack of airspeed, altitude, and heading discipline
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It really is an individual thing. Just because a lot of others lack certain skill, doesn't mean others don't excel at them. I went straight from owning a Tomawk to a Turbo Arrow to a Turbo 21 Mooney, all with relatively low hours when transitioned to the next.
 
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