Tiger Aircraft has halted production??

[poadeleted3]

At least according to the Charleston Daily Mail that is the case

http://www.dailymail.com/news/News/2006042026/

Aircraft maker hits turbulence

George Hohmann
Daily Mail business editor

[SIZE=-1]Thursday April 20, 2006[/SIZE]

http://phpads.cnpapers.com/adlog.php?bannerid=490&clientid=308&zoneid=0&source=&block=0&capping=0&cb=a868bd7397403ea2f25a9a83cf068b65
Seven years ago, the state Economic Development Authority issued $3.8 million in bonds to help finance a Martinsburg company that makes Tiger Airplanes.
Sen. Jay Rockefeller was instrumental in luring the company to Martinsburg and went out on a limb for it. He said on a 1999 trade mission to Asia that some new partners had been brought in, and "It makes for a very sound financial situation. So it's very good."
Now Tiger Aircraft Limited Liability has stopped making airplanes, is in technical default of its bonds and has a main goal of hanging onto the federal certificate allowing the company to manufacture airplanes.
Gene Criss, president of Tiger Aircraft, said the company ran into a cash crunch last year. "In fact there are only about 20 people left in the company right now," he said Wednesday.
He said the company is working through its problems.
"We're looking for funding to buy parts to build airplanes," Criss said. "We're working through that. We'll hopefully have this resolved in the next 30 days.
"We're hunkered down, taking care of customers who have Tigers with parts and warranty support," Criss said. "No production is going on right now."
He added, "We are building subassemblies and things we do have the material for, so we will have a leg up. We're still looking to start her back up. Let's hope that happens here soon."
Rockefeller's press secretary, Stuart Chapman, said the senator still hopes the company can succeed.
"Senator Rockefeller has always believed that with economic development, you must be willing to take risks," Chapman said. "That's why he is always working to bring new industries to West Virginia, even when naysayers tell him it is impossible.
"Sen. Rockefeller is concerned about the future of Tiger Aircraft, as the company has endured its share of ups and downs. But Sen. Rockefeller remains hopeful that Tiger will emerge stronger than ever and play an important role in the state's growing aviation industry."
The bad news broke on Jan. 31 when bond trustee WesBanco notified bondholders that the company fell behind on its required monthly lease payments to the trustee.
But the company did make the $54,000 semi-annual payment that was due to bondholders on Feb. 1, said Janet Shelburne, a senior trust officer at WesBanco. That means the company is still current on its debt service.
She said the company is still "a little bit behind" on its monthly payments to the trustee, so the "Event of Default" will continue until the company catches up on the monthly payments. There are four aircraft bond issues; each has a different maturity date and interest rate. The issue that matures in 2019 carries a 7.5 percent interest rate. These bonds have traded this year in a range from a high of 79.75 cents on the dollar on Jan. 30 to a low of 68.125 cents on the dollar on April 13.
The Tiger is a four-seat aircraft first manufactured in 1975 by Grumman Aircraft.

In 1978 Grumman sold its small aircraft division to Gulfstream Aerospace, which continued production of the Tiger.
American General Aircraft Corp. bought the Tiger design from Gulfstream in 1989. American General ceased making Tigers in 1993.
Tong Lung Metal Industries Co. Ltd. of Taiwan formed a company, TLM Aircraft Limited Liability Co., in the late 1990s. TLM Aircraft acquired the rights to the Tiger and constructed the Martinsburg plant.
Tong Lung Metal, was best known as one of the largest lock set manufacturers in the world, had no previous experience in the aircraft industry. Tong Lung ran into financial difficulties during the Asian financial crisis and in 1999 ownership of the aircraft company changed from TLM Aircraft to Tiger Aircraft.
Criss said four companies now own Tiger Aircraft. "They're doing a cash infusion," he said. "Some are investors overseas. It is difficult to get them to move sometimes." He said that some of the owners are Taiwanese.
Chapman said Rockefeller wrote the Taiwanese Ministry of Economic Affairs in November about the need for continued investment in Tiger.
The company has a backlog of orders for its single-engine airplane, Criss said. With proper financing, "we would need up to 40 more people to ramp up" and the company has enough orders to build planes for the rest of the year, he said.
The base price for a Tiger is $239,500, according to the company's Web site, www.tigeraircraft.com.
When the Martinsburg project started seven years ago, the hope was to employ 58 people and produce 65 aircraft during the first year of operations. The company's best year was 2004, when it employed 64 people and was making about two airplanes a month, Criss said.
Tiger built 14 airplanes at Martinsburg last year, he said.
The Martinsburg plant's production capacity is one airplane a day -- about 240 units a year, Criss said. However, "I've never forecast any kind of numbers like that."
The talk in Martinsburg is not about finances but rather about maintaining the company's production certificate, Criss said. The Federal Aviation Administration, the industry's regulator, issues the certificate. Holders of a certificate are allowed to build and certify their own airplanes, Criss said.
Keeping a certificate requires quality control systems, planning, tooling and skilled people, he said.
John Witcher is a former president of TLM Aircraft. He said he parted ways with the company in 2001. He is now an industry consultant. The Tiger aircraft "is well positioned to do much better than it is doing," Witcher said Tuesday. "The owners of the company are excellent business people."
Witcher said he believes the owners are not as interested in building aircraft in Martinsburg as they are interested in manufacturing aircraft in China. "I am convinced they're losing a relatively small amount of money every year and haven't had time to take on that task," he said.
He noted that China-Taiwan-United States relations are complex.
"I hope things go well with West Virginia," Witcher said. "We have a tremendous opportunity if companies will only invest in doing it right."
Criss called Witcher's comments "pure theory and speculation with very little fact involved."
The owners don't have another plant somewhere else, he said. "Why build and go into a bond issue if you're planning to leave it?" he asked. "It makes no sense."
A total of about 3,000 Tigers have been made over the years. About 2,000 people belong to the American Yankee Association, a fan club for owners of Tigers and other light aircraft once made by Grumman. The club's Web site is at www.aya.org. Contact writer George Hohmann at 348-4836

 

[ggroves]

14 last year? Wow..I thought they were moving more than that. Pretty sad...they're just up the road from me. Occasionally I see the "demo" unit @ OKV.

Greg
182RG

 

[Ken Ibold]

14 last year? Wow..I thought they were moving more than that. Pretty sad...they're just up the road from me. Occasionally I see the "demo" unit @ OKV.

Greg
182RG

The GAMA report says 15 in 2005 for $3.9 million in billings.

 

[PoAdeleted5]

deleted.

 

[JasonCT]

If memory serves me right, Hasn't tiger gotten some nice press lately?

Shame to see them go!

~Jay

 

[gkainz]

I figured it was a matter of time. Much as I like the Tiger airplane, the business of making them has been cursed from the very beginning.

I think Tong Lung and the other Taiwanese were more interested in gaining experience in making aircraft so they can do it in Asia. China is going to be a big aviation market as well as a huge producer of aircraft. They may not be able to manufacture aircraft to American gum'int standards, but they can probably make lots of low-cost handbuilt airplanes to sell in the developing world. The rules don't matter so much there, but the ability to haul guns, dope, smuggled diamonds and tantulum, maybe some food and medicine, a doctor and a bible or two for as few bucks as possible is the goal.

China is probably the biggest threat to US aircraft exports, particularly in light aircraft. No FAA to deal with and lots of cheap labor for bucking rivets.

I thought that yesterday as I head news reports of China's President touring Boeing facilities and meeting with Bill Gates...sort of scoping out how to build airplanes and write windows-like operating systems in China ... "Patent Laws? We don't see any patent laws here."

 

[tdager]

As I stated over on AOPA:

Damn sad to hear it...but dangit, perhaps if their BASE plane did not cost a quarter of a million dollars they might sell more, whodathunkit!

I mean can someone make a decent Cessna 172 style aircraft with good solid analog instruments for LESS then 100k new?

Whomever could do that would make a KILLING in the aircraft market.

 

[poadeleted20]

I mean can someone make a decent Cessna 172 style aircraft with good solid analog instruments for LESS then 100k new?

Apparently not. The only thing anyone seems able to build for that money is a Light Sport type built in Eastern Europe with no liability tail.

 

[Arnold]

As I stated over on AOPA:

Damn sad to hear it...but dangit, perhaps if their BASE plane did not cost a quarter of a million dollars they might sell more, whodathunkit!

I mean can someone make a decent Cessna 172 style aircraft with good solid analog instruments for LESS then 100k new?

Whomever could do that would make a KILLING in the aircraft market.

The price seems steep, but a fully equipped 172S is competitively priced. New Mooneys are close to half a million. New Airplanes are expensive.

 

[Len Lanetti]

The price seems steep, but a fully equipped 172S is competitively priced. New Mooneys are close to half a million. New Airplanes are expensive.

From the Mooney Website...nice planes but they are expensive...lots of great used airplanes a person could buy for half the cost of any of these.

List Pricing
2006 Ovation2 GX, 60th anniversary edition $438,000
2006 Bravo GX, 60th anniversary edition $478,000
2007 Acclaim:$495,000

From the Cessna Website...nice range of prices and mission capabilities but still pricey as compared to similar used aircraft.

Standard Equipment Skyhawk 172R: $172,500
Garmin GA Equipped Skyhawk 172R: $209,750
Standard Equipment Skyhawk 172S: $180,000
Garmin NAV III Equipped Skyhawk 172S: $241,000
Garmin Nav III Equipped Skyane 182T: $326,150
Garmin Nav III Equipped Skyane T182T: $355,050
Garmin Nav III Equipped Stationair 206H: $448,160
Garmin NAV III Equipped Stationair T206H: $482,160


Len

 

[ScottM]

From the Mooney Website...nice planes but they are expensive...lots of great used airplanes a person could buy for half the cost of any of these.

Yep, let some guy buy the brand new stuff and then pick it up off of him a couple of years later and a resonable price.

 

[tdager]

The price seems steep, but a fully equipped 172S is competitively priced. New Mooneys are close to half a million. New Airplanes are expensive.

LOL...sorry, not trying to be some sort of "poor me I have no money" type...cause that is not really true, but what is "competitively priced" mean?

By simple inflation alone a new Cessna 172 should run around 80-90K, NOT the 140k+ range they run now. There is NO way I can justify to me, my wife, and my financial health, the purchase of a plane that cost almost as much as my house!

Has anyone considered shooting all of the lawyers?

 

[Ken Ibold]

Has anyone considered shooting all of the lawyers?

There is one lawyer I would protect with my life.

 

[poadeleted3]

Re: the cost of a new plane, how bout this way of looking at it?

I've got roughly 40 years of flying left, with any luck at all. Assuming one could pay cash for the plane, a new Skyhawk today would run me about $6000 year. Guess how much I'll spend in rentals this year? About $6000. Could look at that as breaking even, but rental costs will continue to skyrocket. 40 years from now, that $6k year is liable to be more like $30k year, or more, for the same number of hrs. So, buying isn't all that expensive.

There. I've rationalized the purchase of a new plane. Now all I need is the darn lottery!!

 

[SkyHog]

LOL...sorry, not trying to be some sort of "poor me I have no money" type...cause that is not really true, but what is "competitively priced" mean?

By simple inflation alone a new Cessna 172 should run around 80-90K, NOT the 140k+ range they run now. There is NO way I can justify to me, my wife, and my financial health, the purchase of a plane that cost almost as much as my house!

Has anyone considered shooting all of the lawyers?

You know, I'm curious now. Is it just liability that has driven the price up, or do the airplane manufacturers really feel that this is a rich man's hobby, so they can charge that much?

Car prices have gone way up too, but not anywhere near as much as planes have gone up.

 

[tdager]

LOL..I am assuming you, your wife, or other family, is an attorney?

There is one lawyer I would protect with my life.

 

[Anthony]

You know, I'm curious now. Is it just liability that has driven the price up, or do the airplane manufacturers really feel that this is a rich man's hobby, so they can charge that much?

Car prices have gone way up too, but not anywhere near as much as planes have gone up.

I think its the lack of economies of scale due to the small numbers of planes made. They are essentially hand built. Liability has a part in it though. FAA certification and regs helps too.

 

[inav8r]

I've got roughly 40 years of flying left, with any luck at all. Assuming one could pay cash for the plane, a new Skyhawk today would run me about $6000 year. Guess how much I'll spend in rentals this year? About $6000. Could look at that as breaking even, but rental costs will continue to skyrocket. 40 years from now, that $6k year is liable to be more like $30k year, or more, for the same number of hrs. So, buying isn't all that expensive.

Hrmm, I like this thinking!

Now if I could just afford that 30K Mooney that needed a new panel, interior, paint and an engine...

Ok, as soon as I hit the lottery.

 

[astanley]

I think its the lack of economies of scale due to the small numbers of planes made. They are essentially hand built. Liability has a part in it though. FAA certification and regs helps too.

I'd also argue that there is a dearth of qualified machinists / engineers to work in such industries. What I think is really odd is that these factories are traditionally in wage-depressed markets. Anyone have an idea what the man-hour time to complete the average IFR certified, single engine piston airplane is?

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[poadeleted20]

I think its the lack of economies of scale due to the small numbers of planes made. They are essentially hand built. Liability has a part in it though. FAA certification and regs helps too.

It's a combination of the two. The liability premium is based on the "tail" of airplanes out there for which the company is still legally responsible, and how many Cessnas are out there? Yes, GARA lopped off a lot of that tail, but each time a new Cessna part is put on an old Cessna plane, Cessna becomes responsible for that plane (at least for that part of the plane) for another 18 years, and their premium is set accordingly. Divide that premium by the relatively small number of planes being produced annually, and it's a pretty large overhead burden.

In addition, the new folks (Diamond, Cirrus, etc) have huge start-up and development costs to recoup for their "clean sheet" designs. The only reason TA is competitive with them in price despite their comparatively small production numbers is that TA didn't have to invest nearly as much in design/certification. Price-wise, all the 180-200HP fixed gear singles seem to be right in the same quarter-mil vicinity when comparably equipped, so the pricing appears competitive, if not easily understandable.

 

[Len Lanetti]

I think its the lack of economies of scale due to the small numbers of planes made.

Many of the problems facing general aviation are based on the fact that we have a small and declining population of pilots. There were probably double the number of licensed pilots when I started flying as compared to today. I don't know if the grave yard spiral can be broken.

Not too many pilots so not as much av gas gets burned. No market for it so why should a gasoline manufacture expend resource to make it.

Not too many pilots so who cares if we close a few more airports.

Not too many pilots so we can restrict more airspace.

Not too many pilots so no need for as many new planes.

Economies of scale are everything in manufacturing...someone said Tiger made 14 or 15 airplanes last year...if they had made 140 or 150 airplanes each one could absorb a smaller percentage of the overhead.

Same is true for the cost of all the neato avionics. Why is it that a Garmin handheld aviation device is more expensive as compared to the car or hiking version. Part of it is that they know the market will accept a the greater expense but part of it is also that a smaller number of units has to cover the R & D costs.

Declining pilot population is the number 1 problem facing general aviation. If that could be fixed many of our other problem would be more easily solved.

Len

 

[tdager]

Excellent points...but those are all symptoms of the "declining" pilot population.

What is the cause?

I think it is a viscious cycle...and it is called PRICE.

Seriously, check out studentpilot.com or AOPA and half of the ownership and newbie training threads I have read in my short time on both boards is all about people that WANT to do it but cannot justify the cost.

I know that GA will never be a "joe sixpack" kind of deal...but when most people look at $6,7-9K just to get to fly VFR, then a quarter million for a new plane, plus the price of avgas, they just say "hell I will buy a boat instead".

I think that is the beauty of the Sport Pilot class...and perhaps the last hope of keeping GA even remotely affordable for anyone making less then 100K a year.

Many of the problems facing general aviation are based on the fact that we have a small and declining population of pilots. There were probably double the number of licensed pilots when I started flying as compared to today. I don't know if the grave yard spiral can be broken.

Not too many pilots so not as much av gas gets burned. No market for it so why should a gasoline manufacture expend resource to make it.

Not too many pilots so who cares if we close a few more airports.

Not too many pilots so we can restrict more airspace.

Not too many pilots so no need for as many new planes.

Economies of scale are everything in manufacturing...someone said Tiger made 14 or 15 airplanes last year...if they had made 140 or 150 airplanes each one could absorb a smaller percentage of the overhead.

Same is true for the cost of all the neato avionics. Why is it that a Garmin handheld aviation device is more expensive as compared to the car or hiking version. Part of it is that they know the market will accept a the greater expense but part of it is also that a smaller number of units has to cover the R & D costs.

Declining pilot population is the number 1 problem facing general aviation. If that could be fixed many of our other problem would be more easily solved.

Len

 

[Anthony]

Excellent points...but those are all symptoms of the "declining" pilot population.

What is the cause?

I think it is a viscious cycle...and it is called PRICE.

Seriously, check out studentpilot.com or AOPA and half of the ownership and newbie training threads I have read in my short time on both boards is all about people that WANT to do it but cannot justify the cost.

I thinkg its cost, but also something very frightening in our society. INSTANT GRATIFICATION. Pursuit of a PPC and airplane ownership/rental requires lots of work, time and money. The alternatives for younger people out there are myriad that give almost instant return on investment. Boating, motorcycles, RV's, sports cars, even video games. We have raised legions of "I have to have it now" people that expect it now because we gave it to them now without them earning it. Then we tell them how great they are BEFORE they do anything in school or life. Sigh.

 

[Steve]

I think Anthony's hit the nail on the head. People are always making choices on how to spend their time and money. Getting a pilot's license can be compared to a getting a high end stereo/home entertainment system. Which takes less effort to acquire?

The demand/interest is out there. The commitment isn't.

Our society has put a lot of effort into finding the "easy" button.

Participation in aviation isn't for the soft, imho.

I thinkg its cost, but also something very frightening in our society. INSTANT GRATIFICATION. ..

 

[AdamZ]

I thinkg its cost, but also something very frightening in our society. INSTANT GRATIFICATION. Pursuit of a PPC and airplane ownership/rental requires lots of work, time and money. The alternatives for younger people out there are myriad that give almost instant return on investment. Boating, motorcycles, RV's, sports cars, even video games. We have raised legions of "I have to have it now" people that expect it now because we gave it to them now without them earning it. Then we tell them how great they are BEFORE they do anything in school or life. Sigh.

Anthony and Len have good and interesting points, However lets also remember that not everyone is cut out to be a pilot. The skill to pilot an aircraft IMHO far exceeds that needed to drive a motorcycle or run a boat. Also boats can be used while docked ( bikini martini party on deck ) And the aquisition cost are less. Also Mx in most other endeavours is not as critical to safety as in aircraft. Shearing something on a boat may set you adrift, in a motorcycle it may cut power and cause you to idle and coast but as we all know ya just can't pull over or sit there with no power or control at 7000'

 

[Ken Ibold]

I think that is the beauty of the Sport Pilot class...and perhaps the last hope of keeping GA even remotely affordable for anyone making less then 100K a year.

There are two populations. There are those who use airplanes for transportation, and those who fly for fun. The second group -- the target for the Sport Pilot airplanes -- are just as likely to be put off by the prices of new sport planes, most of which are tickling 100K already. That's a lot for a toy. Instead of a sport plane, lots of people will buy a nice boat, a nice motorcycle, a nice car, AND have money left in the bank. It's a tough sell.

I think part of the "declining population" problem is that people invest in the certificate(s) because flying fascinates them, but then after a few years the novelty wears off. The pilot then realizes (s)he doesn't fly for transportation often enough for ownership to make sense financially, and the cost of pleasure flying exceeds the perceived entertainment value. Next thing you know, the medical doesn't get renewed and the logbook gets filed in a drawer with 250-500 hours in it.

 

[Bill]

, in a motorcycle it may cut power and cause you to idle and coast but as we all know ya just can't pull over or sit there with no power or control at 7000'

I don't know, I'd put motorcycle riding above flying for pure risk to life and limb, and I'd even put the concentration needed for safe riding right at the same level for flying. Nothing has ever scared me like cresting a hill on a rainy night to find your self sliding and squiggling thru a decreasing radius turn, armco to the outside, and using every moto trick in your bag to get through. I'd rather shoot an ILS to mins any day of the week.

 

[Bill]

There are those who use airplanes for transportation, and those who fly for fun. The second group -- the target for the Sport Pilot airplanes -- are just as likely to be put off by the prices of new sport planes, most of which are tickling 100K already. That's a lot for a toy. Instead of a sport plane, lots of people will buy a nice boat, a nice motorcycle, a nice car, AND have money left in the bank. It's a tough sell.

I tend to like things that have real transpo value. I like sailing, and bought a sailboat a number of years back. We used it twice last season, and it's getting sold this year. I like it, its fun, interesting, but isn't of much transportation value.

I love my bike, it is fun, interesting, and it can take me places. I have great fun WHILE I travel. I have great fun riding to work everyday. Win win. Airplanes are the same for me, not only great fun, but great fun while actually doing something useful, like taking me somewhere quickly and far above the nastiness down on the roads.

 

[inav8r]

Also Mx in most other endeavours is not as critical to safety as in aircraft. Shearing something on a boat may set you adrift, in a motorcycle it may cut power and cause you to idle and coast but as we all know ya just can't pull over or sit there with no power or control at 7000'

I've been in a 16' boat on Lake Erie in 10' seas and had the motor quit. Let me tell you it's DANGEROUS and my life was certainly in jeopardy until I got the motor restarted (so I could turn back into the waves).... Fortunately for us someone quickly noticed the battery cable had come lose. I'd say we were one or two waves from capsizing in relatively cold waters. A storm blew up really quick and we went from no seas at all to 10' seas while we were on the way back to the harbor... The Wx can change in an instant...

 

[Frank Browne]

I don't know, I'd put motorcycle riding above flying for pure risk to life and limb, and I'd even put the concentration needed for safe riding right at the same level for flying. Nothing has ever scared me like cresting a hill on a rainy night to find your self sliding and squiggling thru a decreasing radius turn, armco to the outside, and using every moto trick in your bag to get through. I'd rather shoot an ILS to mins any day of the week.

I'm not IFR rated, but I can sure identify with your post Bill! I have never been as frightened in an airplane as I have on a motorcycle.

 

[jesse]

I think that is the beauty of the Sport Pilot class...and perhaps the last hope of keeping GA even remotely affordable for anyone making less then 100K a year.

It depends what you want out of aviation. If you want to get your license, and fly for fun sometimes. You can do it....if you are willing to make some changes in your life style.

I did my PPL and flew quite a bit..on 18k / yr.

Now..if you are talking about buying an airplane, Yeah...the income needs to be...waaay up there.

 

[Bill]

I have never been as frightened in an airplane as I have on a motorcycle.

Not even close.

 

[jesse]

I don't know, I'd put motorcycle riding above flying for pure risk to life and limb, and I'd even put the concentration needed for safe riding right at the same level for flying. Nothing has ever scared me like cresting a hill on a rainy night to find your self sliding and squiggling thru a decreasing radius turn, armco to the outside, and using every moto trick in your bag to get through. I'd rather shoot an ILS to mins any day of the week.

I'm with you.

The most terrifying moment I've had was when I was on an unfamliar road...at a pretty sporting pace... I come up on a corner and dropped in, it was a blind corner. The turn got tighter and tighter as I was in it...My exhaust was grinding on the road...I'm into the oncoming traffic lane now..still grinding the exhaust.. There is a guardrail on the outside of the road that I really do not want to hit. The guardrail finally stops, the corner gets even tighter yet...I go off into the ditch and somehow manage to stay up. I rode it out of the ditch, no harm done...

I was shaking a bit after that.

 

[tdager]

Try getting to the top of Blood Mountain (yes that is its name) and having your buddies ride up and say that the tail rider is with your wife who lost it in a decreasing radius turn (that was all the info I had).

I FLEW down that damn rode as fast as my skill and my Aprilia would let me..and I think I convinced a few people I was nuts.

Anyways I get there and see them standing her bike up and her dusting herself off.....man I was freaking. I almost dropped my bike getting off.

I was ready to SELL them bikes then and there...and the wife looked at me and said I was crazy, that she was fine, and that she was not only going to finish going up the mountain (she was lucky and went down in some boggy ground, little damage to the bike) but go back down and back up.

There were a few times on our 10-day, 3000 mile round trip from Atlanta to Montreal, Canada that also had my hair standing on end!

 

[tdager]

It depends what you want out of aviation. If you want to get your license, and fly for fun sometimes. You can do it....if you are willing to make some changes in your life style.

I did my PPL and flew quite a bit..on 18k / yr.

Now..if you are talking about buying an airplane, Yeah...the income needs to be...waaay up there.

Good point.

For me, flying is about the combination of the joy of flying AND travel. Without the travel part I am sure my wife, and even my passion, would be greatly tempered.

I am a doer, my wife calls me a common-man adventurer, always wanting to see what is around the next corner or over the next hill.

I see aviation, and aircraft ownership, as a vehicle allow me to do that more, and to experience the joy of flying.

 

[JasonCT]

In six years of funeral directing I buried many motorcycle riders and never a pilot.

~Jay

 

[Bill]

Try getting to the top of Blood Mountain (yes that is its name)

129, or 180 (Wolfpen Gap?)

 

[tdager]

129 Bill.

Had a lot of fun doing the "loop" when I owned my Aprilia Mille...but man I look back and see who stupid, crazy, and LUCKY I was.

Then I got into track days and racing.....

 

[Bill]

Had a lot of fun doing the "loop" when I owned my Aprilia Mille...but man I look back and see who stupid, crazy, and LUCKY I was.

Yes, BTDT, got the T-shirt.

Then I got into track days and racing.....

I sold the sportbikes and bought a slow, portly sport tourer. For me, the only way to keep it in check is to remove the temptation.

 

[Anthony]

I sold the sportbikes and bought a slow, portly sport tourer.

To bring this back on topic guys, your saying you basically went from a Tiger to a Beech Musketeer/Sundowner/Slowdowner.....