Thunderstorms at night are "fun".

genna

genna

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I learned a few interesting lessons last week about flying around thunderstorms at night. Didn't get into anything serious, but i think it's worth sharing for others. You simply cannot tell where exactly these storms are and ATC is not always helpful.

After watching the eclipse, we departed Knoxville International with VFR FF direct to KDMW around 7pm. It was a little later than i would have liked, but we were all hungry and got delayed eating dinner. Not too much of a problem, I'm night current, instrument rated/current. There were a few scattered t-storm lines around Maryland and PA, but were mostly out of our way and there are dozens airports we could land to wait them out. The plane is a very capable SR22 with stormscope and ADSB in/out(but I only had about 10 hours in it and none around t-storms). (EDIT: And by "capable" I mean able to detect storms to a higher level that I am used to with an addition of a stormscope, not capable to fly into the storm itself) I have another pilot(newbie in SR) in the right seat to help as well. The ride was smooth and pretty uneventful for the first hour(it's about 2.5 hours at best power). We saw some distant built-ups, but they were to the east, well off our course. The only problem was haze.

As it started to get dark and i started to lose any ground references in the haze, i decided to get a pop-up clearance. I got it immediately and we continued to our destination. So far, so good. Now, about 100 nm from destination, i started seeing lightning directly in front of us. Nothing on stormscope, nothing within 100 miles on the weather. Only a small, but red spot on my ipad right near our destination.

Here is the lesson number 1. There is no way to tell how far these are from you at night. There is just not enough reference. It looked like it was 20 miles away and i was headed right into it. Naturally, this has me worried. With a relatively limited exposure to this plane, i don't have the confidence in stormscope since i have yet to see it work.

So i query ATC about the weather and they tell me that there is nothing in my vicinity. I tell them that i see lightning strikes directly in front of me, but all i get from them is "We can only see precipitation(I knew that) and there are none around you". After a little back and forth about my predicament, i decided to not risk it and asked for deviation(left 30) and got it with a clearance to turn direct to my previous waypoint after i'm done. Well... 20 min of flying in that direction basically confirmed that this storm was way farther than I though. So we turned back on course and continued. I felt a little silly, but it was better to learn this lesson being silly than flying into the storm

As we got closer, that little red spot(which is what we were seeing), developed into a really nice storm right between us and our destination. I'm looking at it on our ADSB and thinking, "no way i'm going near it". FDK would have been the best stop, but the storm was going in that direction and i wasn't sure who gets there first. Meanwhile, Potomac is now giving me a descent for my destination as if everything is perfect. So, my copilot and discuss this for a minute and decide to deviate to HGR just of our left. We get the clearance, land there uneventfully and wait the storm out(about 30 min) before continuing on.

Lesson #2. You have to be alert and proactive with the weather. This is a much faster plane that i am used to and things happen fast. I'm sure that ATC would not fly me into the storm, but I wasn't going to find out. It looked like(I know ADSB is not live, but I was looking at the lighting in front of me) I would have to be doing a lot of dodging at night to avoid the cell right near my destination.

Anyway, this is a second time I got near T-Storms at night. The first time was years ago and I was clueless and stupid. That flight prompted the IR training. This time I was not taking any chances.

Stay safe out there..
 
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The way lightning reflects around clouds at night you can easily see it a couple hundred miles away.
 
Good observations but consider these:

1) Consider always flying IFR, especially at dusk or at night. Getting a pop-up is a distraction you don't need. And dusk is when you most likely to get unforecast low ceilings. It just is. You may already be doing that but you may have experienced what I did post eclipse... ATC was jammed up with get-home-tonight flights. I flew VFR that afternoon just to avoid the radio congestion.

2) ATC and your ADSB NEXRAD imagery were in retrospect, accurate. Your interpretation was conservative and well advised. Nicely done all around. But consider that more experience with all aspects of the flight including viewing lightening at night, would have resulted in an entirely comfortable flight right to your final destination. IOTW, this kind of flight is worthy of repetition if you really want to do some light plane transportation.

Good flight and write Up!


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Listen to see what the big guys are doing,if their asking for diversions ,at night,in the area your near,it's time to be on the ground.
 
Kritchlow said:
The way lightning reflects around clouds at night you can easily see it a couple hundred miles away.
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True. I this case i was seeing the actual bolts of lightning, not just lit-up clouds. Without sound as a guide and any real ability to judge the distance, it looked a lot closer than it was. It was a good experience. We had plenty of fuel and outs, so I was not worried for safety, but my wife really hates turbulence so I didn't want to come close enough to cells to get any.
 
Bill Watson said:
Good observations but consider these:

1) Consider always flying IFR, especially at dusk or at night. Getting a pop-up is a distraction you don't need. And dusk is when you most likely to get unforecast low ceilings. It just is. You may already be doing that but you may have experienced what I did post eclipse... ATC was jammed up with get-home-tonight flights. I flew VFR that afternoon just to avoid the radio congestion.

2) ATC and your ADSB NEXRAD imagery were in retrospect, accurate. Your interpretation was conservative and well advised. Nicely done all around. But consider that more experience with all aspects of the flight including viewing lightening at night, would have resulted in an entirely comfortable flight right to your final destination. IOTW, this kind of flight is worthy of repetition if you really want to do some light plane transportation.

Good flight and write Up!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Interestingly, the pop-up was super easy. This was only the second time i asked for pop-up. I asked and 1 min later got "Cleared to KDMW via direct to MRB and direct to KDMW, descent and maintain 9000" That was it. No 20 questions like the first time. Although i was ready.

Completely agree on both points, however
 
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Yea it's not a good time. Usually if there's a bright moon out, it makes it a little easier.
 
genna said:
The plane is a very capable SR22 with stormscope and ADSB in/out(but I only had about 10 hours in it and none around t-storms).
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Nothing in GA, including an SR22 is "capable" INSIDE a thunderstorm. Just keep that in mind. Feeling "capable" right up until the storm rips the wings off, is a dumb way to die. Ask Scott Crossfield.

genna said:
I tell them that i see lightning strikes directly in front of me...
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Stop right there. There's NEVER anything wrong with asking for a diversion for something you SEE. If you later realize it's further away than you thought, just let the controller know and continue on course. Make the move... don't get into long "negotiations" with yourself in your head, or the controller... just ask for the deviation and do it... once you can truly see what's going on, carry on as needed...

genna said:
I'm sure that ATC would not fly me into the storm...
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[/QUOTE]

Bad assumption. Do not EVER assume this. All sorts of recordings of controllers not really "flying someone into a storm", but also not particularly caring if someone drove into one... and the airplane came out the bottom in multiple pieces. All it takes is one transmission where the pilot sounds confident, even if he or she isn't, to fool someone at the other end of the radio into thinking the PIC knows what they're doing.
 
denverpilot said:
Nothing in GA, including an SR22 is "capable" INSIDE a thunderstorm. Just keep that in mind. Feeling "capable" right up until the storm rips the wings off, is a dumb way to die. Ask Scott Crossfield.


Stop right there. There's NEVER anything wrong with asking for a diversion for something you SEE. If you later realize it's further away than you thought, just let the controller know and continue on course. Make the move... don't get into long "negotiations" with yourself in your head, or the controller... just ask for the deviation and do it... once you can truly see what's going on, carry on as needed...


Bad assumption. Do not EVER assume this. All sorts of recordings of controllers not really "flying someone into a storm", but also not particularly caring if someone drove into one... and the airplane came out the bottom in multiple pieces. All it takes is one transmission where the pilot sounds confident, even if he or she isn't, to fool someone at the other end of the radio into thinking the PIC knows what they're doing.
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All good suggestions. All followed by me. Yet, somehow your statements feel like you are telling me I did things differently. No place I even hinted that my plane was capable flying into a tstorm. In fact I said specifically i want to be nowhere near it. I did ask for(and got) a diversion twice when i felt the need. And I didn't, in fact, assume that ATC will get me home and asked for diversion to a clear field.

I know that tones and meanings are sometime lost in forum replies. Perhaps you use "Stop right there" and "Bed assumption" as a general suggestions for others.
 
Nice summary, I would only quibble with your verbiage which could be misinterpreted (statement about capability and T-storms).

Tim
 
genna said:
All good suggestions. All followed by me. Yet, somehow your statements feel like you are telling me I did things differently. No place I even hinted that my plane was capable flying into a tstorm. In fact I said specifically i want to be nowhere near it. I did ask for(and got) a diversion twice when i felt the need. And I didn't, in fact, assume that ATC will get me home and asked for diversion to a clear field.

I know that tones and meanings are sometime lost in forum replies. Perhaps you use "Stop right there" and "Bed assumption" as a general suggestions for others.
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Yes, you've got it. No insinuation that you did anything wrong.

Hints to change the thought process around a bit... order of operations... and attitude... never start with the assumption "the airplane is capable", "the controller won't harm me", "the storm might not be really right in front of me like it looks"... assume the worst...

"The airplane can literally quit working in a multitude of ways at any time, am I ready for that?", "the controller isn't perfect and can miss things", "if that storm looks like it's right out my window, it's time to divert... if it's really NOT that close, I can always resume the original course." Then work to solve the unknown/problem.

Just "survival" tactics. Not saying your process was "wrong". The people I know who've survived tens of thousands of bad weather flying hours, don't even entertain the first series of thoughts much, they tend toward the second thought process, and then relax when it's disproven by more information. It's subtle. Same checking of info, same stuff needs to be done... but they're on a slightly tighter (not stressed, just slightly tighter) spring to action than someone who's trusting the equipment, controller, and eyeballs at night and working to disprove the trust, they're starting from a distrust of the unknown and working to alleviate it.

See what I'm getting at?
 
tspear said:
Nice summary, I would only quibble with your verbiage which could be misinterpreted (statement about capability and T-storms).

Tim
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Tim, I don't know how "The plane is a very capable SR22 with stormscope and ADSB in/out(but I only had about 10 hours in it and none around t-storms)" can be misinterpreted as me thinking I can fly into a t-storm, but just to avoid any confusion i fixed that in the OP
 
Last year I went to the NC coast after work, a nice 2:20 VFR trip. It got dark over east Georgia. Around Columbia, SC, I was seeing something ahead in the darkness, a few flashes and what not. I asked ATC if there were storms along the coast, or were the Marines at LeJeune having live fire exercises. They didn't know anything, so I started studying up on my options to land short and wait it out (at the airport or a hotel).

The show livened up as I continued east, but didnt seem to get a lot closer. Even Wilmington had nothing showing, but the controller volunteered to check "unofficial sources" since there was nobody he could call. (Cell phone? Weather channel?) He said it "appeared" to be NW of my destination on the outskirts of Camp LeJeune and was moving away.

I stayed ready to divert back towards Wilmington until I was almost at my destination, a lovely, lighted grass strip about 1nm direct to the water. Not even much of a breeze . . .

But you really can't tell distance to lights (or clouds, if you can see them) very well at night. Be careful out there!
 
I have deviated around a city a time or two in my career while (mis)interpreting the radar.
 
ATC types jump in, but my working theory is ATC has responsibilty for seperating traffic. . . while I don't think they'd vector you into a cell they can see just for grins and giggles, their radar is for air traffic, not weather. No precip, no joy?

I could be wrong, but if it gets tight, traffic seperation trumps weather.
 
Sundancer said:
ATC types jump in, but my working theory is ATC has responsibilty for seperating traffic. . . while I don't think they'd vector you into a cell they can see just for grins and giggles, their radar is for air traffic, not weather. No precip, no joy?

I could be wrong, but if it gets tight, traffic seperation trumps weather.
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I think you are right on that one.

Back in pre-NEXRAD days I stupidly tried flying thru an area of imbedded thunderbumpers. That is, I was in solid IMC with randomly scattered cells and no way to see where they were. I was getting vectors from Indianapolis Center until they got too busy keeping the big birds separated while they requested deviations around the wx they were seeing on their radar. My next request for vectors got an "unable".

Fortunately none of cells I found were strong or very big but I never knew what was next until I blundered out. Don't do that.
 
Sundancer said:
ATC types jump in, but my working theory is ATC has responsibilty for seperating traffic. . . while I don't think they'd vector you into a cell they can see just for grins and giggles, their radar is for air traffic, not weather. No precip, no joy?

I could be wrong, but if it gets tight, traffic seperation trumps weather.
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Priority is separation of aircraft and issue safety alerts but their radar does have a weather function as well. TRACONs will issue areas of precip if it's an analog radar or intensity (light, moderate, heavy, extreme) if using digital radar. Centers use NEXRAD and will issue intensities as well minus light. If requested, they can provide vectors around the precip or allow pilot deviation on their own.
 
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How do you eat a cake? One bite at a time. You're relatively new in your aircraft as you stated but you didn't say your overall experience. You learned some things on this flight which is causing you to "learn" some more which will help you in the future. Like has been said many times over the years...a good pilot is always learning. I fly the back side of the clock for a living and have for thirty years. Despite what one of our genius management "pilots" told a Congressional hearing that "there was no weather at night", there is and you can see it along ways off if your in the clear. As I was taught many many years ago by an old Captain, You look at the radar, you look out the window and file it away that, for this particular flight is what the radar looks like. I truly have more information about overall weather in my Bonanza with ADSB with its "radar" and strike finder than I do in my work jet. BUT, with that being said...I want it all and I want it now. Radar, ATC, FSS, Pireps, ADSB and Strike Finders are all just tools that you use to make a decision. It is YOUR decision. (personal request....PIREPS, I try to file them all the time. They help your fellow pilot)

After all these years and hours, my main thought is, when I sit down in the Bonanza my first thought is "this is NOT a transport category jet and I do NOT have to be anywhere now". I am on here, doing webinars, reading books on weather etc. just to relearn a lot of the stuff that you guys know now. It is a totally different type of flying.

You done good. You learned something. You will learn more the next time. And every flight is different.
 
> "Ask Scott Crossfield."

I did. He said he failed to slow down. It takes a lot of willpower to pull the throttle(s) back, screw up the flight plan and' injure the feelings of a sleek plane by slowing it down to C-150 speeds. I especially like flying at night so inevitably I've wound up at times and places where pulling the throttle and even throwing out the gear and tunneling through was the best option . . . certainly better than trying to back out of the situation. Hitting a shear strong enough to break the tail when hunkered down like this is possible I guess, but highly unlikely imho.

As for hail, I've just been lucky. If we fly we will inevitably have to depend on it (luck) more than we would like to.
 
Hank S said:
"Luck" and "hope" cannot be counted on in your flight plan.
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There is a bit of luck & hope at times. Do you deviate 150 miles each direction to get around a line, or do you aim for a hole. I do understand this does not pertain to low level like it does high altitude. Point is, at times we rely on experience and "hopefully" we are correct. I have been screwed before on occasion.
 
I think there's two kinds. One kind of "experience" tells us that we made it through the last few times we were in such a predicament so we'll probably be fine this time too. This kind of experiences is a practical sort that tells us we can't go through life deviating every time we come upon something that might cause trouble. Such zigs and zags all over the sky . . . what are we rabbits being chased by a fox? Or pilots who stay on course and on schedule? Do we want to be the object of scorn when we slink into the FBO where even the girl behind the counter has been giggling at our antics?

The other kind of experience is remembering what we did right and what we did wrong (if anything) on previous occasions. The first type of experience gets us into such dicey situations. The second type gets us out.

Pilots are either the Randy Cunningham types that feel their purpose in life is to constantly regale the commoners with accounts of their brave adventures . . . or . . . they are those like Peter Garrison who, in writing about the air mail pilot Jack Knight in his (Garrison's) exquisite piece in last August's Flying Magazine - The Importance of Being Lost, writes with such wry humor that it cracks me up every time I read, "I think the difference between people who had the makings of pilots and those who didn't must have been more marked then than it is today."

The old masters like Robert Buck in his bio North Star Over My Shoulder give us a glimpse into a world and a time when schedules were kept no matter what the weather. They drilled on through at 9 thousand ft or or 1500 ft. and seemed to make it through with little delay. They slowed down when necessary but deviating wasn't a word the chief pilot liked to hear. Sometimes when a bump or two has suddenly gotten my attention, I'll pretend it's the 30's and 40's and I'm flying a DC-3 instead of an Experimental and know that whatever is out there in the darkness, it'll be behind me in just a few minutes, but meantime slow down FCS. Rushing to get through it after getting caught in some violent line of cells can be exactly the wrong thing to try and do. Most the time slowing down works fine. Hail though . . . hail is another matter. Avoiding that throughout one's life is just plain luck.
 
MikeS said:
I think there's two kinds. One kind of "experience" tells us that we made it through the last few times we were in such a predicament so we'll probably be fine this time too.
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That's the textbook definition of "Normalization of deviance".
 
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