Thoughts on damage 337

VictorMike

VictorMike

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VictorMike
Folks, need some input here about a 150 I bought. It had some damage history in 1971- something about wind damage while it was tied down, my guess was it was a hurricane. The repair has a well written 337 which was more than I could say for the damage on my 172 from the 70s, but I tell you what, ignorance was bliss. This airplane has over 2000 hours on the repair but its a long list of things that were fixed. I inspected the repairs and had an IA inspect them as well. Everything was done to AMM specs but I am curious to hear input about this. The airplane is otherwise a creampuff and has been well taken care of. The family I bought it from has had it for several decades and they trust it with their lives. Obviously when you see doublers on a spar it makes you wonder.


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50 years and 2000+ hours on the airframe since the repairs, I wouldn't be exceptionally concerned with it. The fact that they filed a 337 for it, quoting chapter and verse of the structural repair manual (and back in those days, 337s weren't just scanned directly to your aircraft records like they are today... they were sent to the FSDO first who reviewed them and if they didn't have concerns/issues would forward on to OKC, or would reject them back to the filer for changes), is a good sign ... plenty of airplanes are flying with much less care and documentation :) I am a little surprised at the no change to weight and balance entry though... sure sounds like a decent amount of added sheet aluminum and rivets, possibly exceeding the 1lb "negligible" amount, but that's neither here nor there. NDH airplanes are rare to run across these days when the average GA airframe is 40+ years old. Personally, I'd be much more leery about recent damage/repairs with very limited time on them, especially when a thorough review of the old repairs shows good workmanship and they've been flying for a long time. That said, if I had a choice between 2 airplanes that were otherwise similar time/price/quality, and one had the repaired damage and one didn't, I'd probably pick the one without the damage
 
VictorMike said:
Everything was done to AMM specs but I am curious to hear input about this.
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What specifically do you want to know? It's simply a repair done to guidance and signed off? Have done similar repairs or in some cases more extensive repairs in the same manner.
 
This long ago? no worries, go fly.

Are you certain it is a doubler in a wing a spar? there are enforcement at the jury strut junction.

This era the FSDO had to approve all 337s as major repairs they normally would require the spar be replaced.
 
May not have been a hurricane but by the looks of it the poor thing must have done a cartwheel or two, that’s a lot of doublers.

Tom: the doublers listed in the 337 are for both rear spars.
 
Agree with everything Ryan said. If you bought it already why worry about it? The time to worry about damage repairs is BEFORE you write the check.
 
Meh, find a plane that doesn't have repaired damage. They are pretty few and far between. If it has 2000 hours since the repair I would say it is holding up pretty well.

ETA: Find one that has completely documented repairs and I would say you are way ahead of most.
 
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If the repairs were done properly I wouldn’t worry about flying the plane. The only question would be on resale value. If it worries you it will also worry other potential buyers. Major damage history will have an effect on the airplanes price, no way around it.
 
Forgive me for sounding cheap a second, but the price was VERY right on this bird and I absolutely factored in the damage when I made my offer. Aside from the damage history from several decades before I was even a thought in my parents head, the airplane is perfect. I bought the plane with a warranty of airworthiness, pending inspection so the cash is in escrow till that happens because I'm not stupid. Problem is there is very little *reasonably priced for what you're getting* inventory to pick from and it's an act of god finding a decent shop with an opening right now on short notice. I'd rather pony up cash for an escrow than lose another plane.

Like I said, my 172 had some pretty nasty damage history and she flew like a dream till we sold her. For me it's purely a mental thing to question things like that till you build trust in an a new airplane and I think asking people's opinions is healthy in this field. I knew a lot about 172's and lyc 320's but I lack that knowledge on 150's and o-200's.
 
Hey at least you have the paperwork!

My 172 was flipped and totaled about 20 years ago. Some local mechanic bought the airframe and rebuilt the wings, rear fuselage, and tail feathers. Apparently at some point there was a folder of all the damage pictures, 337s, and repair history.

All that paperwork got lost to history. Now there is just a short cryptic logbook entry about “replaced wings”.
 
ARFlyer said:
Hey at least you have the paperwork!

My 172 was flipped and totaled about 20 years ago. Some local mechanic bought the airframe and rebuilt the wings, rear fuselage, and tail feathers. Apparently at some point there was a folder of all the damage pictures, 337s, and repair history.

All that paperwork got lost to history. Now there is just a short cryptic logbook entry about “replaced wings”.
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The Faa cd will have the 337s if they were filed.
 
I wouldn't be concerned about it at all. My favorite plane ever had been damaged and repaired, gear up landing. I loved it, and still mad at myself for selling it. If a repair is done correctly, which it sounds like yours was, who cares. It wasn't some drunk in his driveway doing it as a hobby.
 
Salty said:
The Faa cd will have the 337s if they were filed.
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They don’t, already look through the system. It was during the time period when the FSDOs had to forward them. Apparently they lost some occasionally.
 
ARFlyer said:
They don’t, already look through the system. It was during the time period when the FSDOs had to forward them. Apparently they lost some occasionally.
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Curious how do you know they ever existed?
 
Salty said:
Curious how do you know they ever existed?
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Everyone associated with that aircraft or knows about it knew of the folder. Even the mechanic that did the work all those years ago mentioned to check the yellow folder with all the pictures in the MX bag.

I called Cessna and their response was just to inspect everything at next annual and noted it in the logbook. They also said a 337 isn’t needed if everything was just pulled and replaced with Cessna parts. Also that is no way to determine what parts were replaced as airframe components weren’t serialized until after the GARA restart. The service center said if it looks like, flys like, and feels like a old Cessna 172 then your good.

The FAA database is also only about 75% complete with the 337s and STCs I have on hand.
 
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ARFlyer said:
I called Cessna and their response was just to inspect everything at next annual and noted it in the logbook. They also said a 337 isn’t needed if everything was just pulled and replaced with Cessna parts. Also that is no way to determine what parts were replaced as airframe components weren’t serialized until after the GARA restart.
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Keep in mind, aircraft records can appear to be incomplete but still conform to the regulation. For example, there is no requirement for the owner to retain copies of repair 337s only alteration 337s. Also, while not applicable to your aircraft, if the repair was performed by a CRS, they can use their workorder to document a major repair vs a 337 which does not get forwarded to the FSDO or Oak City. As to the S/Ns on parts, there is no requirement to enter those numbers in a log entry unless the item is tracked or has a time life which most airframe parts do not have. So while there can be an informal premium put on "complete" mx records there usually is not a regulatory requirement.
ARFlyer said:
The FAA database is also only about 75% complete with the 337s and STCs I have on hand.
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I would say that is a a good average for a pre-1980s aircraft. Have you made efforts to get the FAA database equal to what 337s you have on hand? But as a note, not all STCs require a 337 so those should be kept separate from actual major alteration 337s.
 
YKA said:
I wouldn't be concerned about it at all. My favorite plane ever had been damaged and repaired, gear up landing. I loved it, and still mad at myself for selling it. If a repair is done correctly, which it sounds like yours was, who cares. It wasn't some drunk in his driveway doing it as a hobby.
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like the former FBO of KRPH
 
Bell206 said:
Keep in mind, aircraft records can appear to be incomplete but still conform to the regulation. For example, there is no requirement for the owner to retain copies of repair 337s only alteration 337s. Also, while not applicable to your aircraft, if the repair was performed by a CRS, they can use their workorder to document a major repair vs a 337 which does not get forwarded to the FSDO or Oak City. As to the S/Ns on parts, there is no requirement to enter those numbers in a log entry unless the item is tracked or has a time life which most airframe parts do not have. So while there can be an informal premium put on "complete" mx records there usually is not a regulatory requirement.

I would say that is a a good average for a pre-1980s aircraft. Have you made efforts to get the FAA database equal to what 337s you have on hand? But as a note, not all STCs require a 337 so those should be kept separate from actual major alteration 337s.
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So here is my past experience with this "records keeping" issue. My 172 was flipped over when she was a few years old and needed two new wings and vertical rebuild. The only thing indicating damage was an accident record and a vague airframe entry for wings R & R, see 337 for additional details. Well, no 337 was actually filed so who knows what work was actually done. Like I said, that was blissful ignorance. After owning that airplane for ten years I let her go with a lesson in paperwork learned. My new process for buying a plane is 1st- accident records, 2nd- get full records from OKC, 3rd- Crosscheck the 337s and actually read the books yourself, entry by entry and make sure nothing is missing. I trust most mechanics to do pre-buys for me, but records are my department now. For those of you involved in record keeping for 135s/121s or jet ops in general MOST of the value in those planes comes from the records kept. I live in the 121 world now and that over analysis has washed over into my GA life. Some days its great, other days I feel the need to ask others for reassurance if my well documented 337 is cool to fly lol. I was blessed that beyond that 337 the plane has been really really well maintained since it was new.
 
Tom-D said:
This attachment does not show the front side of the 337, was it signed by FAA approving the repair?
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The A&P who did the repair got the RTS signed off by an IA.
 
Who approved the repair data (the FAA inspector)?
 
VictorMike said:
Should show up large now.
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Neither of those blocks show who approved the data to repair.
Those are who returned to service, not who approved the repair data.
Block #3 is who approved the data.
Block 6&7 are mechanics that returned the repair to service.

Block usually a FAA stamp, and a signature.
with out that Stamp and signature the 337 was never approved.
 
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VictorMike said:
. I live in the 121
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FWIW:
While living in the 135/121 world provides the best environment to learn the system, it can create issues when applied to the 91 World. With some exception in 9 pax 135 there are very limited comparisons.

For example, with records there is no legal requirement for the owner to maintain mx records past 1 year except transponder tests at 2. And while the owner is required to maintain alteration 337s for the life of the aircraft there is no similar requirement for repair 337s. Have reviewed aircraft with excellent and non existent records which sometimes affected a sale and sometimes not. It is what it is.
 
Tom-D said:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Form/Form_337.pdf

Block #3. is who approved the data to repair.

With out it the 337 is not a major repair.
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Yeah it looks like block 3 is blank in fact. I just went back and looked at 337s for a few planes I’ve owned and the only time the FAA notated box 3 was for an owner produced parts scenario requiring a field approval on some fiberglass. Even other damage cases I don’t see anyone stamping box 3.
 
For those interested parties, I am going to delete the entry pictures. Not a huge fan of putting people on blast since they are both still alive.
 
VictorMike said:
Yeah it looks like block 3 is blank in fact. I just went back and looked at 337s for a few planes I’ve owned and the only time the FAA notated box 3 was for an owner produced parts scenario requiring a field approval on some fiberglass. Even other damage cases I don’t see anyone stamping box 3.
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The fact is that there are a lot of aircraft out there with significant repair history on a 337 and block 3 is blank. A lot of that has to do with the old wives tale that the "maintenance manual is approved data" it may be a half truth but not the whole truth. If you sit in an IA renewal seminar you would understand why so many would say it.

If we take a pranged ____________ drill out all the fasteners holding the bent/torn/punctured pieces on, bought brand new pieces from the OEM whom built the airplane, and reassembled it with the same type and size fasteners do we really need an approval for that? It conforms to type design right?

FWIW the Cessna 152 I took an FAA ride in was wrecked about 20 years prior to that flight, totaled by insurance. Some bloke bought it, repaired it and its still making pilots today. The guy whom owned it prior to me becoming familiar with it was an FAA inspector. The 337 from that repair was a blank block 3 and a giant list of Cessna part numbers... Its just how things were done then.
 
VictorMike said:
Even other damage cases I don’t see anyone stamping box 3
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There can be several reasons why your 337 doesn't have a block 3 signature: the data used to repair was considered FAA approved; the field approval was signed after the repair, etc. While I usually got the field approval signed prior to performing a repair/alteration a lot of people didnt/dont.
 
Bell206 said:
FWIW:
While living in the 135/121 world provides the best environment to learn the system, it can create issues when applied to the 91 World. With some exception in 9 pax 135 there are very limited comparisons.

For example, with records there is no legal requirement for the owner to maintain mx records past 1 year except transponder tests at 2. And while the owner is required to maintain alteration 337s for the life of the aircraft there is no similar requirement for repair 337s. Have reviewed aircraft with excellent and non existent records which sometimes affected a sale and sometimes not. It is what it is.
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The only issue it creates in the 91 world is it makes you attentive to paperwork. I've overlooked really nice airplanes because someone lost the logbooks 40 years ago. Every owner has the right to throw away their paperwork when they are no longer needed but why would you do that? The difference between what's legal and what's smart is something brought up a lot in what we do. I think if people spent even a little time and devotion into their planes records you'll find come sales day it pays off.

Let me rant a second while I'm here:
For the love of everything holy, I don't care how many receipts you have for all the crap you've bought from spruce... just put your logs in a nice binder and organize your old books in hole punched folders or those binder pencil holders from the dollar store. A lot of planes I've bought come with a grab bag of 1 million receipts, 20 logs, 100 AD sheets, 50 yellow tags, 337's for the 35 STC's (Half of which you took off) you stuck on a 172 and random screw drivers. Ya'll need to fix your books because I will offer less than I had in mind after digging through all that.. and every time they say yes without fail. The price in my head for the last 150 I got in September, after rifling through exactly what I just described went from 19.5 to 16.5.. settled on 17. Your disorganization will cost you money to an experienced buyer.
 
Bell206 said:
There can be several reasons why your 337 doesn't have a block 3 signature: the data used to repair was considered FAA approved; the field approval was signed after the repair, etc. While I usually got the field approval signed prior to performing a repair/alteration a lot of people didnt/dont.
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Yeah I just went back through records for all the airplanes I've owned and some belonging to friends and there are zero instances of box 3 being filled out except for an owner produced part which was field approved. The sign off in the log shows everything done IAW Section 19 of the Cessna Service Manual- which is the structural repair section.
 
VictorMike said:
The only issue it creates in the 91 world is it makes you attentive to paperwork.
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Depends. In a number of cases it also creates unwarranted expectations especially when it's a 121/135 mechanic that enters the 91 World for the first time. My day job was 135/145 with some contract 121 which taught me the differences between them and 91. I've found treating each aircraft and ops separately provided the best results, based on my experience.
VictorMike said:
. I think if people spent even a little time and devotion into their planes records you'll find come sales day it pays off.
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Whether it pays off is highly subjective to the people involve vs a blanket statement on the market. There are dozens of aircraft models that may not have complete records that still command full price. Some aircraft may even have no history save for one maintenance sign off and one annual.

I review the records separate from the aircraft and would make my recommendation separate also. This would give the owner two info points to make his decision whether the aircraft + the records = the price he wanted the pay. So it can really depend on the situation.
 
The 337 goes back to the days ( actually nights) of having “adult beverages “

at the IA Renewal at the GADO.

Terms like Approved vs Acceptable Data were not around yet.

Repairs were accomplished per the Cessna Manual as noted and the 337 was signed

and sent in with Block 3 blank.

It should be noted that older Manuals depicted repair methods that were often

deleted in later revisions.

Service Kits were available for typical repairs such as the Inboard Aft Spar.
 
Bell206 said:
Depends. In a number of cases it also creates unwarranted expectations especially when it's a 121/135 mechanic that enters the 91 World for the first time. My day job was 135/145 with some contract 121 which taught me the differences between them and 91. I've found treating each aircraft and ops separately provided the best results, based on my experience.

Whether it pays off is highly subjective to the people involve vs a blanket statement on the market. There are dozens of aircraft models that may not have complete records that still command full price. Some aircraft may even have no history save for one maintenance sign off and one annual.

I review the records separate from the aircraft and would make my recommendation separate also. This would give the owner two info points to make his decision whether the aircraft + the records = the price he wanted the pay. So it can really depend on the situation.
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I get that from the perspective of a mechanic but my sole focus in this conversation is taking the things learned in other operations and applying good practices within 91.

And as for some airplanes still commanding full price I would absolutely agree with that, but most of the market consisting of Pipers, Cessnas, and pick any other mass manufacturer, I can say with confidence the books matter. If we go down the road of like a Messerschmitt, that's an outlier in my opinion.
 
Bell206 said:
There can be several reasons why your 337 doesn't have a block 3 signature: the data used to repair was considered FAA approved; the field approval was signed after the repair, etc. While I usually got the field approval signed prior to performing a repair/alteration a lot of people didnt/dont.
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I'd agree with that.
It was left up to the A&P-IA to determine if the repair was a major or minor, with out a signature in block #3 it is not a major repair, It's simply a document stating what was done.
that is why you'll not see any record in the aircraft's file.

IMHO, it should have a field approval to be legal.
 
It seems folks are looking at the practices of that era through the eyes of the

current era.

A lot of policy changes occurred within FAA entities including transitions from

GADOs to fiefdoms er FSDOs.

Some things simply were not done then or are not done now.

ie Is it a legal Annual if you don’t mail in the 8320-3?

The reason for FAA Renewal Seminars is to advise people of current practices.
 
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