Thoughts on a Cherokee 140 as a learner & 1st plane

I trained in a Cherokee 140 with no toe brakes, not a big deal at all. The hand brake can be easily reached from both seats.

My CFI loved the Cherokee over the 150s he normally instructed in. Roomier, better performance, and less prone to beat you to death if its a little bumpy out.
 
NordicDave said:
Just make sure both sides have the optional toe brakes. Many CFI's will not instruct in planes without toe brakes on both sides. Talk with your CFI before making a purchase as he is an essential part of the equation.

-David
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FWIW, mine does not have copilot toe brakes, and I've never had any of the four CFIs I've flown with over the years question or remark about it any way. The handbrake is right there easily accessible.
 
I learned to fly in a 140 back in 1978 in Casper, WY. Altitude there is about the same as Denver and never had much of a problem taking off. Highest altitude I ever reached was 12,500 over Casper Mtn. Density altitude can be a slight problem. Took my check ride on a day when temp was 104F. Seemed like we used about 3/4 of the 10,000 ft. runway! LOL! I am a Piper fan and always will be. To me it always seemed to be more stable and easier to fly than the Cessna. I have quite a few hours in 172's and will always take my Archer over them.
 
Chesterspal, I'm curious about your post regard the concerns of the inspection causing more issues and that the exemption of the 235. does that mean the 235 doesn't have the same risks as the rest of the models or that the 235 is easier to inspect with less risk of issues?

Thanks
 
Another advantage of low wing....you can see the runway on base to final.
 
murphey said:
Another advantage of low wing....you can see the runway on base to final.
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And it's easier to visually check fuel, more ground effect to aid in judging the landing flare and soft field takeoffs, and less blind spots above you to see clueless unaware pilots descending towards you.

On the other hand, your wings get dirty on grass fields, you only have one door and you have to climb across the copilot's seat (at least in a Cherokee), you give up a lot of sight-seeing ability for stuff below you unless you're circling or maneuvering to keep a wing out of your line of sight, and if you have a tricycle gear plane you have three oleo struts to maintain instead of just the nose gear in a lot of Cessnas.

I like'em both for different things. If I had more funds I'd have a 152 just for fun low'n'slow flying and sight seeing, and an RV9 to get there fun and fast. Instead, I've got the worst of both worlds... a PA28-140... and I love it!
 
The video I watched earlier showed a 140 in flight, taking off and landing several times. What seemed to stick out was the CFI's concern each time the student came in for a landing that they were going to make the runway. They both stated how they could feel the plane dropping and it seemed to sink like a stone then, "bonk", onto the runway.

My memory of my days in the Cesna 152 was just trying to get it to touch the runway as it seemed to want to keep flying.

Does the 140 lose lift on approach more so than a high wing or ??
 
Chesterspal said:
Does the 140 lose lift on approach more so than a high wing or ??
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It's not a high-wing vs. low-wing thing. The Cherokee 140 has a stubbier, shorter-span wing that descends more rapidly in a glide than does the 152's longer, seagull-like wing. But the Cherokee's best glide airspeed (72 knots) is higher than that of the C-152 (60 knots), so during that more-rapid descent the Cherokee covers almost as much ground as the C-152.

Newer versions of the PA-28 have longer, tapered wings, very similar to Cessna wings in span, area and aspect ratio. As a result their glide performance is more like their Cessna counterparts.
 
Ill throw my.02 cents in... I hate the Cherokee 140. Its cramped, extremely underpowered, has 0 back seat legroom, handles like crap when slow, and the trim on the ceiling is something I could never get used to. Also I dont think I've ever been in one that can break 100KTAS in cruise. I know alot of people have an affinity towards this aircraft and I apologize if this offends but I just am not a fan.

OTOH I love the Piper Warrior or any of the semi taper wing Cherokees. IMHO they are a significantly improved airframe.

I would stay away from the 140 and grab a Warrior or C172. Look at the market for Cherokee 140's it is so low that the entire price of the aircraft is basically based on the engine time. Nobody wants these things..A 140 with an engine needing overhaul is basically scrap metal at this point.
 
I bought and finished my PPL in my Cherokee 140 which I still own and will for a long time to come. Some people like them, some don't. If you like it, buy it and take with a block of salt all the talk of the wings falling off, eddy current inspections, etc. They were and continue to be a reliable and safe airplane.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The Cherokee 140 needs a steely-eyed, skilled, and handsome pilot; other people just need to fly something else.
 
+1 on the overhead trim. I had over 100 hours in PA28-180 that had that I know I threw it the wrong way first 70% of the time. At first I'd look up to see which way to go, finally I would move it and feel with my left hand if it was doing what I wanted. Eventually it becomes a nothing. YMMV
 
Ravioli said:
+1 on the overhead trim. I had over 100 hours in PA28-180 that had that I know I threw it the wrong way first 70% of the time. At first I'd look up to see which way to go, finally I would move it and feel with my left hand if it was doing what I wanted. Eventually it becomes a nothing. YMMV
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I love the overhead trim but I will admit, it took a bit of time to get used to. Then someone told me, "turn the handle and imagine it elongated. If it turns in such a way to hit your forehead (counterclockwise), it knocks your head back and you climb. Turn it the other way so that it hits you in the back of the head (clockwise) and you dive."

I never had a problem after that.

Side note: The trim handle was sourced from Piper from the Studebaker auto company as a window crank. Someone on this or the Piper forum provided a link to the vender which happens to be in Gilbert, AZ. Since the little knob on mine was wearing out, I ordered a replacement which was an exact match right down to the mold marks, except that the knob was white instead of black. If anyone is interested, the link and description is provided below:

https://www.studebakerparts.com/stu....cgi?product=int3&next=48&cart_id=5125.932750

1312643X1 WINDOW HANDLE
1312643X1 INSIDE WINDOW HANDLE CRANK WITH BLACK KNOB FOR 1956-1961 CARS AND 1966 CARS IT HAS ALSO BEEN REPORTED TO REPLACE PIPER CHEROKEE TRIM ADJUSTMENT CRANK FROM THE EARLY 1950S
 
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Timbeck2 said:
Side note: The trim handle was sourced from Piper from the Studebaker auto company as a window crank.
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And the Cherokee's inside door handles came from Volkswagen. When I was instructing in Cherokees in the early '70s I had a '69 VW Bug. The car and the airplanes had the same door handles.





I ordered a replacement which was an exact match right down to the mold marks, except that the knob was white instead of black.
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So much for an authentic restoration ... :p
 
I know. I thought about telling the company that the knob on the crank they sent me is white instead of black. Even in the description it states: black. But I don't care, as long as it has a knob that isn't worn out, I'm happy.
 
I have been flying a 1969 Cherokee 140 for the past 2 1/2 years. I started my PPL 6 years ago in a 152, then 172 and rented a Warrior and Archer until the 140 showed up at my base airport. For 2 adults I don't think you can beat the 140 for price, low maintenance, fuel economy (average 8gph), fuel capacity (50 gallons) and easy to fly. Setting aside the high/low wing debates I will add my 1 cent to what has already been mentioned:

First the bad points:
- it isn't fast. Cruise speed stock is more like 115 mph (yes, that's miles per hour)
- it can't carry 4 adults. Maybe 2 adults and 2 small children or 2 average sized adults and one small adult in the back seat (my wife is under 5 foot and 130 pounds so she is relegated to the back seat when carrying myself, one average size adult and my wife)
- The Hershey bar wing doesn't glide like the taper wing models or even like a a Cessna 152 or 172. Get too slow on final and you will be rewarded with a thump. Keep final around 80mph, round out as low as possible keeping speed up, flair gently and it will land itself. Once you raise the nose it bleeds speed off fast, be gentle!
- Sight seeing from the front seat is forward only. Back seat gets a great view of the wing.
- Only 1 door and no windows that open

Good points:
- Wider cockpit than a 152 or 172. Lots of shoulder room for the average person.
- 50 gallon fuel capacity. Doesn't mean flying for 6 hours straight but gives a large margin for a 3 hour flight or 3 hour hops in case of diverting due to weather. Once got diverted an hour north of my planned flight path due to weather after 2 hours into my leg. Was never worried about running low on fuel.
- Every mechanic knows how to work on the 140
- low maintenance costs
- lots of parts readily available
- Manual flaps. Cessna uses an electric flap motor and it seemed to need replacing on the rental 152 and 172 quite frequently. Try getting Cessna flaps down or up with an electrical problem or inoperative flap motor.
- A metal spilt cowl. Makes it really easy to check the engine during pre-flight, checking for oil leaks, brake reservoir and if any birds started building nests in the engine compartment.
How far can you fly? Once flew from New Jersey to Nashville. Straight thru would be 7 hours but I broke it up into 3 hops to top off fuel, get an updated weather briefing and stretch my legs. Flew there by myself and back with my wife. Cruised at 8,500 over the Allegheny mountains. No performance issues either but it was Thanksgiving week with colder air than a hot summer day.
As mentioned by a previous poster it would be significantly faster and much less costly flying commercial for long flights. Flying the 140 from New Jersey to Nashville and back cost me at least 5 times what a commercial flight costs. Also take weather into account flying long distances, especially if you are VFR like me. Weather can change in an hour which happened to me. Expect for worst case layover enroute or leaving the destination on your time schedule.

As suggested by a previous poster it may be best to put off buying an airplane until you get your PPL since you have not had much exposure to different airplanes. Where I learned they had a good rental stable of 152, 172, Warrior, Archer, DA-20 and DA-40. Pick one to train in for consistency and get checked out in others after your PPL.

Another advantage of renting is typically flight schools have multiples of the same airplane. If one 152 is in the shop another is available etc. If your 140 is down for a month or so you are out of the air. Unfortunately stuff happens which can cost you time and money unexpectedly. This may cost you more than 2 years of rental to get back in the air. There is a thread titled "Anyone messed themselves in Annual". Take the time to read the worst case annuals.

Pound for pound and buck for buck the venerable 140 is a great 2 person airplane. A faster airplane with more carrying capability than the 140 is going to cost much more.
 
Mine is a '69 as well. I wonder how far off the serial numbers are. Does your tail number end in U?
 
Timbeck2 said:
Mine is a '69 as well. I wonder how far off the serial numbers are. Does your tail number end in U?
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Tim, isn't yours a 1970 model ("Cherokee 140C")? A lot of the '70s used a block of numbers that ended in 'U'.

The '69s ("Cherokee 140B") in our flight school were N95174, N95434 and N8059N. I also flew another '69 back in the day, N5704F.
 
Mine was built in October 1969. It SOLD in February of 70. The finance company tried to convince me that it was a 1970 serial number but the registration says its a '69. I looked up two serial number before and after mine and they were both '69. Ironically, one was deregistered and the other is still flying - both in Indiana.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Mine was built in October 1969. It SOLD in February of 70. The finance company tried to convince me that it was a 1970 serial number but the registration says its a '69. I looked up two serial number before and after mine and they were both '69. Ironically, one was deregistered and the other is still flying - both in Indiana.
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The registration database only refers to the calendar year in which the individual airplane's Airworthiness Certificate was first issued; it doesn't necessarily correspond to the manufacturer's model year. As with cars, the airplane manufacturers in those days trotted out the new models in the late summer or early fall of the previous year. My 172N was built in October 1977, so it is listed as "1977" by FAA. But by serial number, paint scheme, equipment, etc., it's a 1978 model.

I think the finance company was right about your airplane being a 1970. According to the Aircraft Blue Book, the 1970 model year started with s/n 28-26401, so you're a few dozen units past that. Changes from 1969 to 1970 were minimal; a very minor tweak to the paint scheme, and overhead fresh air vents were offered as an option (if installed, there would be a small intake near the top of the leading edge of the vertical fin). Doesn't make a whole lotta difference, except when you go to sell it you'd be justified in saying it's a 1970 model.

After 1970, Piper changed their serial number system to include the model year, which made it easy. The first two digits after the "28-" indicated the model year, and the next two digits were coded to the particular model. For example, '25' indicated a Cherokee 140. The remaining digits were the sequential number of that model in that model year. So the first 1971 model Cherokee 140 was s/n 28-7125001. My old Cherokee 140 was s/n 28-7725043; in other words, the 43rd Cherokee 140 built in the 1977 model year (though it was built in late 1976, and is listed as "1976" on the registration).

That serial number system continued into the late 1980s.

1969:
pa-28-140_1969.jpg

1970:
pa-28-140_1970.jpg
 
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Thanks Jeff, that's good to know. I have a vent, well at least I THINK I have a vent on the vertical fin but is has a cover on it. Maybe I'll take that off and see what's behind it. I don't have any overhead vents, just the ankle coolers for all four seats. Also I noticed that the '69 pictured above appears to have an air scoop or something right under the turnbuckle to the ADF antenna, I don't have that. Mine actually looks like the 1970 pictured but the original paint scheme is a mystery.
 
I suspect the optional fresh air vent was not ordered from the factory on yours, so the vent opening on the fin is covered. Those with the vents have a mesh screen in the opening.

Screen Shot 2019-05-01 at 7.29.34 AM.jpg

Timbeck2 said:
I noticed that the '69 pictured above appears to have an air scoop or something right under the turnbuckle to the ADF antenna, I don't have that.
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Piper's usual practice was to pull an airplane off the assembly line and paint it in the next year's color scheme for the brochure photos. So N1595J was a '68 (which did have the vent exhaust on the cabin roof), painted like a '69. Cabin air exhaust on the '69 Cherokee 140 was on the bottom.

I used to rent a Turbo Arrow IV, N4296J, by serial number a 1983 model, but it was the one painted in the 1984 scheme and used in the '84 brochures and ads.

N4296J brochure cover.jpg
 
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My first plane was a well used 1961 Cherokee 160, serial number 30 out of the then new Vero Beach factory.

Addressing various points in prior posts:
1. Mine had no toe brakes at all, just the handle. I thought for sure I would have to retrofit them. Flew the plane for several years and several hundred hours, never needed to add the toe brakes.
2. You can go a lot of places in a Cherokee. Perfect for two people and baggage (mine had a 980 lb useful load and 50 gal fuel). I flew it twice to Oshkosh, a 2400 nm round trip from where I live. Chester can stretch out on the back seat, no problem.
3. Love the trim on the ceiling. My current Piper, an Aztec, has electric trim. I still reach up and make fine adjustments using the crank on the ceiling. It's just intuitive. I've had 5 Pipers, and much prefer the ceiling mounted trim over those with the wheel.
4. Judicious management of the power just off idle will lead to consistently soft landings. As an owner this quickly becomes routine, you just do it automatically. The Hershey Bar wing doesn't fly in ground effect as well as higher aspect ratio wings seem to.
5. The semi-tapered wing of the Warrior isn't enough of an improvement to justify the price premium imo. The Hershey bars are way better value for money (I've owned four Cherokee derivatives, and have lots of hours with both types of wings).
6. I'm envious of @Timbeck2 Cherokee - I wish any of mine looked that good!
 
I bought my '71 140/160 (Sn 28-7125009) in April 2015. At the time, I had been taking lessons for 3 weeks and had 8 hrs in a 172. 650 hrs later, she has gotten me through PPL, Instrument, and CPL. I'm working on CFI now. I have used it for business travel from MS all over the southern US from SC to TX. I've used it for vacations with my wife and black Lab from St. Louis to NOLA to Disneyworld. She's been very low maintenance...I've had to replace the tach and vacuum pump plus I added ADS-B last summer. In 10 years my grandson will get his PPL in it. It's been a perfect 1st plane
 
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This video seems to do a very good job of explaining the wing spar issue. From what I can gather, it will apply to planes with over 5000 hours of TT and/or planes used commercially that require 100 hour inspections. There is a formula you use to compute total time if that is the case, it appears.

 
Chesterspal said:
... From what I can gather, it will apply to planes with over 5000 hours of TT
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No.

You really need to understand how hours are counted for the purposes of the proposed ad if you are considering a Cherokee. I repeat it is not a big deal if you familiarize yourself with it and take a few simple steps prior to purchase.
 
Mize well throw my two cents in as well! Bought my '67 140 (S/N 28-23251) in March 2000. First and only plane. Often think about bigger and faster but seem to always end up sticking with what I got (I can afford to keep it!). Been a joy to own, reliable, simple systems, easy parts availability and pretty much does everything I need. Do have the 160hp upgrade, Powerflow exhaust (huge safety improvement over the stock exhaust), Metco wing tips, gap seals, Mattson VG's and a 62 pitch prop. Been from Maine to Florida, but not west of the Alleghenies (yet). Plan for 105kts cruise @2450RPM under 4500', will get more up higher. Flight plan for 8.5 GPH, which always ends up having a built in safety margin. Heard from many people that 140's are dogs in climb, but I've never really seen that, always seems to climb pretty well, even when hot and humid. Really like the double hinge cowl, gives an excellent view of all the engine components for inspections and repair if needed. Just filling the tanks to the tabs gives me more airtime than my bladder or back can take.

Usually operate with the rear seats removed (yes re-did the W&B) so there is a ton of room for bags and stuff, never worry about being over-weight or outside the envelope. Since it's use is mostly tooling around for breakfast and trips with just me and the wife, this works out great. The wife's hobby is touring historic homes, so she gets to pick the location and I get to fly, win-win!

Do like the overhead trim, it's just natural now and you can keep the eyes out the window the whole time. Agree with GRG55 that the fat wing does need a bit of power to help ease the landing. Every year I take the week off for an owner-assist annual, good therapy and I've learned a lot about the plane and what is right and not right. Would be nice to have something faster, but overall it does what I ask of it.
 
BarryCooper said:
I bought my '71 140/160 (Sn 28-7125009) in April 2015.
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We had a couple '71s on our flight school line, as well. 28-7125158 (N1805T) and 28-7125490 (N1937T). It was probably just the newness (this was in late 1971-early 1972), but the '71s seemed smoother and quieter than our well-worn '69s.

37T looked different, because when it was built late in the '71 model year, Piper had already started putting the 1972-style nosecap on Cherokee 140s.

Early on N95174 was our "instrument" trainer, and rented at a higher hourly rate. It was so designated because it was the only one equipped with a 360-channel transceiver (just one) and had glide slope and marker beacon receivers. When N1805T came on the line we were thrilled because it had TWO (count 'em) navcoms, a Narco Mark 12B and a Narco Escort 110. The Escort had just one receiver, so it could communicate or navigate, but not both at the same time. As it turned out, 05T's Mark 12B spent more time on the radio shop bench than in the airplane, so all we had was the Escort and a big hole in the panel. :(

None of our Cherokees had transponders or DMEs, and this was at KLGB, then the fourth busiest airport in the country.
 
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Tim, my tail number DOES end in U.
 
Walboy said:
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Cherokee without brakes toe brakes on the right side. Better to make a good deal on an airplane than make a bad deal to appease a CFI. CFIs are much cheaper and more plentiful.
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MuseChaser said:
FWIW, mine does not have copilot toe brakes, and I've never had any of the four CFIs I've flown with over the years question or remark about it any way. The handbrake is right there easily accessible.
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No argument Piper's without right-side toe brakes are great planes.

I nearly bought a very cherry 1972 Cherokee from Van Bortel. New G650, GDL-69A, New paint, new high end interior, low time engine, etc. Awesome plane. I didn't buy it as several CFI's in my area would not train with a 25 hour pilot in a plane without right side toe brakes. I thinks that's LAME as heck, and this was my personal situation, thus the admonition to verify the proposed plane as a training platform with your CFI before buying.

-David
 
So, things are progressing nicely.

I found a very decent CFI who will gladly train me in the plane I own. In fact, he has some 700 hours in the Cherokee from when he lived in Florida. Has a full time job in aviation but has four days off per week that he uses to take on students. His CFI rates are half the going rate of the local flight schools, so that's great, as well. Having no overhead makes a big difference. We seem to be on the same page with most of what I was proposing so that's a plus. Not looking for a guy who will fight me every step of the way.

Still plane searching. Will hire a firm that specializes in pre-buy inspections and have their experts check the plane out prior to my purchase. They also help with the negotiations.

Finally, I have found a pilot who will ferry the plane to me for free. I only need to pay for his travel to the plane and back home. Guess he does it for the hours, which seems fair.

Enjoying this process and looking forward to the final outcome... a nice little plane and my PLL.
 
Wonderfully easy plane to fly. Economical, and relatively easy to maintain. I put a deposit on one immediately after getting my PPL, but the buyer backed out at the last minute and I wound up with an AA-1A instead. For most light singles, consider the plane adequate for 2 people less than the number of seats. (Unless you have two seats, then it's barely good for two and a toothbrush--better suited for one.) For 2, a Cherokee 140 should be a good runabout. Not as fast as an AA-5 or AA-5A, but nice enough. You will find that planes of this vintage often come with vintage avionics, but over time you can tart it up.
 
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Can someone who owns the 140 do me a big favor?

I'll be getting my eyes checked next week for new glasses. I have a pair made specifically for computer use. All I need is to tell the doc the distance and he sets a card up and we get the eyes/lenses calibrated.

I can do the same for the 140 but I need to know the distance from the pilots eyes to the instrument panel. I'm 5' 10" if that helps with setting the seat.

Thanks
 
Chesterspal said:
Interesting. Thanks.

Can I start the (my) plane up while tied down if checking things out but still do not have my license yet?
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Yes, but you won't be doing the plane a favor.

The problem is internal engine corrosion. Unless you get the engine oil up to full operating temperature for 30 minutes or so, you won't be boiling off the moisture in the inevitable combustion products "blow-by" that pass from the cylinders to the crankcase. Once in the crankcase the blow-by gasses dissolve in the oil and form sulphuric acid, decidedly ungood for your bearings.

The problem is that while on the ground, you can't get the oil hot enough without over-temping your cylinders.

Once or twice, no problem. Just don't make it a habit!

-Skip
 
Unit74 said:
All fun and games till the wingspar AD drops.... then it’s scrap value. Maybe.


I’d think long and hard about a PA28 right now. My money? No way in hell I’d buy one till the FAA makes a final decision. I’m a former Archer owner.
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The wing spar AD is only a problem if your plane is high time and has had a lot of 100 hour inspections (as apposed to annual inspections). I just purchased a Cherokee 140 as my third plane. My first two were Cessna 172s. For my type of flying, it is perfect for me. Cheaper to fly and maintain. No speed daemon, but I dont need speed for fun flying.

Greg
 
Pilawt said:
Cabin air exhaust on the '69 Cherokee 140 was on the bottom.
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And to muddy the water even further, my cabin exhaust is on the bottom. There was no screen and my mechanic asked where it was. I looked in the IPC and there isn't one listed.

So I made one from parts obtained from my local Aircraft Components Emporium. Can't have critters and bugs getting in there.
 
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