This is not a what plane thread, but a how to buy thread

[drotto]

OK, the title says it. I am wondering the hows not the whats.

1. If you want a partnership, how to you go about setting that up? How do you find people in your area? At your airport? How do you set up the partnership?

2. Do people generally finance? For how long? What are interest rates like? If you do a longer loan, can you get out early?

3. How do you go about getting insured and in what? Low time new PPL pilots, what planes is it reasonable to look at?

4. Just a slight step up plane like a Warrior to an Archer or Dakota. A 172 to s 182? Or do you push the envelope slightly and go for an older Mooney like a f or a j?

So yeah general how questions. It may not even be reasonable for me to consider this at this time, but I wanted to inquire.

 

[poadeleted20]

1. If you want a partnership, how to you go about setting that up? How do you find people in your area? At your airport? How do you set up the partnership?

See AOPA's guides to shared ownership.
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Aircraft-Ownership/Pilots-Guide-to-Co-Ownership

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources...wnership-Co-Ownership-and-Flying-Clubs-Part-1

2. Do people generally finance? For how long? What are interest rates like? If you do a longer loan, can you get out early?

Some do, some don't. Terms vary widely depending on the individual's resources and needs. AOPA also has a financing guide on their web site.

3. How do you go about getting insured

Best way is to hook up with a broker (not an agent, who represents insurance companies). Brokers work for you, not the insurance companies, and they can shop all the insurance providers to provide options and the best deal for you. The one I use is Aircraft & Marine in Vancouver WA.

and in what? Low time new PPL pilots, what planes is it reasonable to look at?

In my 38 years of aircraft ownership, and having observed more private ownership situations than I can possibly count, the most happy outcomes for first-time ownership by low-time/new PPL's come with a simple, 4-seat, 150-180HP fixed gear single like a Cessna 172, Piper Warrior, or Grumman Tiger.

4. Just a slight step up plane like a Warrior to an Archer or Dakota. A 172 to s 182? Or do you push the envelope slightly and go for an older Mooney like a f or a j?

Going for more aircraft than I suggested is possible, but I've often seen it go badly. You can always trade up after a few years if you think you need more.

So yeah general how questions. It may not even be reasonable for me to consider this at this time, but I wanted to inquire.

If you'd like to know how deep is the water into which you are considering a plunge, I'll be happy to send you a copy of a paper I wrote on ownership costs of the sort of plane I described. Just click on my name and send an email. No posts, PM's, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves, thank you.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I don't know about clubs but I am a low time pilot insured on a Cirrus.

Shop around on insurance. Call Hardy, Avemco, etc all of em
*On the TB9 my insurance was only $400 per year (with Hardy)
* I share a plane with my dad and all insurance companies base the rate on the lesser of the two pilots. So I have ~300 hours and he has a lot more and the rates were all based on my hours.

With the TB (think 172) it was easy. The rates were all pretty low.

With the Cirrus it was a whole nother ballgame. I got quotes as high as 12k per year.
I got quotes that changed after 500 hours and all different factors.

In the end, We are splitting a $3500/yr policy that cuts in half when we get our IR.
It is a lot but I get to play with a flying Lambo so whatev.

I am in the market for a slower plane that will have us both on it as well and really shouldn't impact the policy.

As far as buying my putt putt plane, I am not willing to do a club. Part of my flying goal is to own my own plane that I can fly when and how I want and sell to trade up when and how I want.

I am going to get a loan and put 30% down and make the term as long as they will allow. If it is 20 years, that is what I am getting. I may pay it off in 5 but I need the option.

I am a super cheap skate. I think worst case scenario what if I lost my job and had to take a lower paying one. I get 5-6 year loans on my cars and try to have them paid off in 2. I just want to make sure if the S hits the fan, I can afford the payment (I am sorry Dave Ramsey).

I am stashing 2k for prebuy inspections in addition to my down payment. That will likely be too much but I could go through a couple planes.


Edit: Whoops... When I got insured on the TB, I was a student and my rate was like 1200/yr. It dropped to $400 after I got the cert.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Take into consideration any advice I give is coming from a guy whose avatar is him drinking underwater.

But the insurance advice... Shop around and you will find something that fits.
Clubs will often handle the insurance piece.

AggieMike88 is in a club that handles the hanger, insurance, maintenance as a part of the premium. That is the only club with which I am familiar but they make that part easy.

 

[Theboys]

You have a bunch of hard questions. You could probably afford more plane with a partnership and might make it easier to find a partner. There are quite a few sources for financing with pretty reasonable rates. My first fast plane ( columbia) I financed with boa. Interest was around 4%. I had a 20 year loan on 250,000.00 and think my payment was around 1300? I paid off in 2 years and no penalty. I was fairly low time and not ifr rated and my initial insurance was around 4000. Ended up it wasn't the plane I really wanted. I now fly a malibu for my fast plane and it does what I wanted. I am ifr now and I fly quite a lot. I average about 300 plus hours a year. My insurance on the malibu now is about same as columbia was. Around 4000 mark. However, I do have at this time 6 planes insured so I'm sure I get a break on that. My experience is to really think about what you want a plane to do and then go find the plane that does those things. A lot of people love 172,s. I have several but they aren't my favorite plane but have a purpose and do that well. For me I fly 1000 mile trips every few weeks at least. A 172 no matter how cheap is not going to be very appropriate for that.

 

[Henning]

OK, the title says it. I am wondering the hows not the whats.

1. If you want a partnership, how to you go about setting that up? How do you find people in your area? At your airport? How do you set up the partnership?
Local/regional FBO/Flight school bulletin boards
2. Do people generally finance? For how long? What are interest rates like? If you do a longer loan, can you get out early?

I wouldn't finance a personal plane, but I don't finance anything that isn't going to not only make its payment, but earn me a living as well. That's just a personal thing though. Many people do finance, and all the normal finance terms are in play since they are dictated by law. Rates depend on your credit score, terms can go to 30 years.
3. How do you go about getting insured and in what? Low time new PPL pilots, what planes is it reasonable to look at?

Any, you can get insured in anything. The insurance company will set training requirements before solo, and maybe some solo before passengers. Rates will vary from 3% insured value to 10% insured value depending on the plane. This will last for 100 hrs/1 year though. The rates will come down to approximately 1.5% insured value by 100 hrs in the plane.

4. Just a slight step up plane like a Warrior to an Archer or Dakota. A 172 to s 182? Or do you push the envelope slightly and go for an older Mooney like a f or a j?

So yeah general how questions. It may not even be reasonable for me to consider this at this time, but I wanted to inquire.

I always say "buy your last plane first" and train in it for primacy and the most time and training in the plane you are going to fly your family in, also you get to full mission capacity right away (so you get the most bang for your aviation $$$), and you have a bunch of your first 100hrs done in your initial training. If you need a 421 for your mission, then you may have to hire a pro to insure for the first 50-100hrs and be CFI-I and train you for your ratings concurrently.

Any extra insurance, training, and pilot expenses incurred by buying the more capable plane you need first rather than doing the 3-4 plane upgrade method is more than offset by the cost of purchasing 4 planes; travel, pre buy inspections, upgrading things you want into each of the planes... gets pretty costly.

If you want a Mooney or a Bonanza, there is no reason not to start in them, just find a good instructor, they are rugged and easy to fly. Just don't buy into the "Oh, you have to land them hot" BS. A good instructor can have you landing a Bo or Mooney easier than a 152.

 

[drotto]

This question came about because there is a family plane in the picture. We have been checking with the insurance company, and they are willing to insure me, but are requiring a few large hurtles before I am truly allowed to be solo in the plane (first dual with CFI, and then the other family member would be required to be in the plane, but I could log PIC). I would be basically looking at about 150 more hours (I just got my PPL and have about 75 hours). The plane is a fully renovated PA32R, and because of the new avionics, new paint, etc has a high hull value. My ultimate goal is to get into that plane, and am looking for the most cost effective way (I know there is no such thing) to build hours. The plane really fits my ultimate mission profile. I have already started some of the transition training.

I think the most logical is just to suck it up and build the hours with what insurance has said, and occasionally rent locally to keep building true solo PIC when schedules can not be aligned.

Regardless, I was curious about all those things anyway, and faced with the frustrating news from the insurance company, my mind started to wonder and look for other routes.

 

[Henning]

This question came about because there is a family plane in the picture. We have been checking with the insurance company, and they are willing to insure me, but are requiring a few large hurtles before I am truly allowed to be solo in the plane (first dual with CFI, and then the other family member would be required to be in the plane, but I could log PIC). I would be basically looking at about 150 more hours (I just got my PPL and have about 75 hours). The plane is a fully renovated PA32R, and because of the new avionics, new paint, etc has a high hull value. My ultimate goal is to get into that plane, and am looking for the most cost effective way (I know there is no such thing) to build hours. The plane really fits my ultimate mission profile. I have already started some of the transition training.

I think the most logical is just to suck it up and build the hours with what insurance has said, and occasionally rent locally to keep building true solo PIC when schedules can not be aligned.

Regardless, I was curious about all those things anyway, and faced with the frustrating news from the insurance company, my mind started to wonder and look for other routes.

The most cost effective way to get into it is buy it, fly the hurdles and as much else as you can as fast as you can. If you hit the 100hrs in the plane in the first 6-9 months, contact them and update your times with them and they will recalulate your rate down to the 1.5% and give you a pro rata rebate. It does not matter how much time you build in something that isn't a PA-32R really unless it's of an equal caliber, the first year insurance hit is always there when you change planes until you get over 1000 hours, and if you get over 500 hrs with no retract, your first year hit goes up!

 

[JHW]

This question came about because there is a family plane in the picture. We have been checking with the insurance company, and they are willing to insure me, but are requiring a few large hurtles before I am truly allowed to be solo in the plane (first dual with CFI, and then the other family member would be required to be in the plane, but I could log PIC). I would be basically looking at about 150 more hours (I just got my PPL and have about 75 hours). The plane is a fully renovated PA32R, and because of the new avionics, new paint, etc has a high hull value. My ultimate goal is to get into that plane, and am looking for the most cost effective way (I know there is no such thing) to build hours. The plane really fits my ultimate mission profile. I have already started some of the transition training.

I think the most logical is just to suck it up and build the hours with what insurance has said, and occasionally rent locally to keep building true solo PIC when schedules can not be aligned.

Regardless, I was curious about all those things anyway, and faced with the frustrating news from the insurance company, my mind started to wonder and look for other routes.

Shop around some more. Plenty of people have learned to fly from scratch in pa32's, bonanzas, cessna 210's, and they get insured.

 

[steingar]

OK, the title says it. I am wondering the hows not the whats.

1. If you want a partnership, how to you go about setting that up? How do you find people in your area? At your airport? How do you set up the partnership?

Find people in your area who want to fly and own an airplane. Local EAA club, airports, wherever you can look. One of my partners is one of my oldest friends, another we got in contact through the local community.

2. Do people generally finance? For how long? What are interest rates like? If you do a longer loan, can you get out early?

Some do and some don't. I may go into some debt for the aircraft I am contemplating, but I'm going to try and tie it to my house.

3. How do you go about getting insured and in what? Low time new PPL pilots, what planes is it reasonable to look at?

You go to an aviation underwriter. I have an insurance agent who does this for me, I've yet to be disappointed. I would of course be happy to forward his number.

4. Just a slight step up plane like a Warrior to an Archer or Dakota. A 172 to s 182? Or do you push the envelope slightly and go for an older Mooney like a f or a j?

You define your mission. Are you just bumming around your local area or are you taking trips? I think it a good idea renting for a bit until you set some sort of pattern, so you know what your mission is. You'll start out taking everyone you know flying, but that won't last long (unless you now a lot of people) and then you'll start doing the flying you do.

So yeah general how questions. It may not even be reasonable for me to consider this at this time, but I wanted to inquire.

The only people for whom such questions are preposterous are non-pilots.

 

[ChemGuy]

150hrs for a PA32r sign off? That seems crazy excessive. Its not turbo is it?

Find a new insurance company. I could see maybe 25hrs dual and 10-25 hrs no pax, only named insured pilots. 150hrs....no way.

 

[drotto]

I had a relatively restless night, because one of my dogs decided it had to go out in the middle of the night. So I kept thinking about this. Because I know I want to be able to use the PA32R, I need to not just build time but complex time. In my ideal world, where I couold in theory then have two plane to use, I need a retract which leaves me with mainly Mooney's and maybe Arrows. In my idea world an older M20J which I have seen listed in the 50k to 80K range would possibly be ideal. Cheaper hull, not considered HP, only four seater, so easier to insure and cheaper to insure. Plus my home airport is Mooney central. The service station is a major Mooney shop, so they have lots of experience with them.

Most of my flying would be myself or maybe with the wife and kids. I know the Mooney is not a real 4 person travel machine, but my kids are 9 and 12 and still small, so for short trips it would work. Once I get the hours, the PA32 would be there for bigger loads (and bigger kids).

 

[mtuomi]

I flew a P32R-301 around Europe for about 30 hours a year ago. Their insurance requirements were 5 hours on Piper retractable and a checkride.
I know EU insurance requirements aren't nearly as crazy as in the US, but 150 hours sounds like pure insanity.

 

[Henning]

I flew a P32R-301 around Europe for about 30 hours a year ago. Their insurance requirements were 5 hours on Piper retractable and a checkride.
I know EU insurance requirements aren't nearly as crazy as in the US, but 150 hours sounds like pure insanity.

They were looking for 150TT, he can buy that down with another company.

 

[Theboys]

I've got a beech sierra c24r that is retract. One horsepower less than high performance. Bunch of room inside. They actually made seats so you can seat 6 although this one doesn't have them. Useful load is over 1000. Insurance is almost same as a 172 for me. Flys very nice, But.. It's no speed demon. I'm thinking 45000 for it.

 

[mtuomi]

They were looking for 150TT, he can buy that down with another company.

Thought he said he is looking for 150 MORE hours, so 225TT if he now has 75.
Saratoga/Lance isn't that heavy nor complex. He would be spending alot of time with a CFI doing nothing productive.

 

[mtuomi]

I've got a beech sierra c24r that is retract. One horsepower less than high performance. Bunch of room inside. They actually made seats so you can seat 6 although this one doesn't have them. Useful load is over 1000. Insurance is almost same as a 172 for me. Flys very nice, But.. It's no speed demon. I'm thinking 45000 for it.

Sierra mentioned - timer starts counting when someone posts that NTSB rep about a Sierra getting hit by a flock of birds, from behind...

 

[Henning]

Thought he said he is looking for 150 MORE hours, so 225TT if he now has 75.
Saratoga/Lance isn't that heavy nor complex. He would be spending alot of time with a CFI doing nothing productive.

I read it as he needed another 75. He just needs to check with other insurance companies, I sent him the contact for Travers in St Louis, I couldn't be happier with them, rates they found or service.

 

[Theboys]

If he's going to build hours in type he might as well do it with instrument training and get something out of it.

 

[Henning]

If he's going to build hours in type he might as well do it with instrument training and get something out of it.

Exactly, what you do is insure the instructor as primary insured, take a week off and do your IR and there's 40+ hrs right there. As soon as the IR is done, call the insurance back up with the cert and time upgrade and he falls into a different actuarial category. They recalculate the premium and if he paid the year in full, he gets a rebate on the unused premium and is likely cleared for open use at that point.

 

[petrolero]

I had a relatively restless night, because one of my dogs decided it had to go out in the middle of the night. So I kept thinking about this. Because I know I want to be able to use the PA32R, I need to not just build time but complex time. In my ideal world, where I couold in theory then have two plane to use, I need a retract which leaves me with mainly Mooney's and maybe Arrows. In my idea world an older M20J which I have seen listed in the 50k to 80K range would possibly be ideal. Cheaper hull, not considered HP, only four seater, so easier to insure and cheaper to insure. Plus my home airport is Mooney central. The service station is a major Mooney shop, so they have lots of experience with them.

Most of my flying would be myself or maybe with the wife and kids. I know the Mooney is not a real 4 person travel machine, but my kids are 9 and 12 and still small, so for short trips it would work. Once I get the hours, the PA32 would be there for bigger loads (and bigger kids).

FWIW...

While it's not quite to the level of a PA-32R-300, the TR182 (235 HP turbo RG) is a high performance retract and can haul your family of 4 easily with bags and 4 or 5 hours of fuel at 160 to 170 KTAS. If kids or bags are lighter than I imagine then you can go full fuel and get nearly 6 hours at full speed.

The reason I bring up the TR182 (or Turbo Arrow) is that it might provide you with nearly full mission capability -- along with HP+RG training value -- and I guarantee you can get insured. I had very little (like <10 hrs) retract time and about the same HP time when I bought a ~$110k hull value plane as about a 175-hour pilot. I had to fly 5 hours with an instructor (most others wanted 10). I think I my rate started at about $1700/yr and has dropped to ~$1400/yr since building HP/RG time and also getting my IR. I am still a sub-500 hour pilot too. My guess is that the insurance training requirements wouldn't be as bad for something in 230-260 HP RG class as compared to 300 HP.

But, as Henning advises, it very well could be worth your while to just bite the bullet and buy your last plane first and train in it. Buying and selling multiple planes is not a costless endeavor nor an enjoyable pastime, especially if you place a reasonable value on your own time. Compare the PITA and cost factor of buying and selling that intermediate airplane with the cost of "training into" your PA-32R and you may find it close to a wash.

I have a Bo' or 'Toga in the back of my mind as a step-up plane for when the kids get heavier (they are about a large sack of dog food each right now) so I'm glad to be building HP/RG time now.

Good luck!

 

[drotto]

Out of frustration, I had a few hours before work so I grabbed a Warrior and logged a whopping 0.6 hrs. I had not flow one since my checkride about 6 weeks ago. Did 4 landings, pretty much greased three of them, and the fourth was fine.

To clarify, not all those hours need to be dual, only 15 must be. The remaining hours however, they want the higher rated pilot on the policy in the plane with me, but apparently will then allow me to count it as PIC. I do not hold the policy at this time, my relative holds the policy and owns the plane. I would not be buying that plane, he is willing to let me use it however once cleared.

I mentioned as a joke to my CFI (who just happened to be in the FBO) when I flew today, I should just circumvent the insurance issue and buy a cheaper plane they would insure me on once I have done the training, like a M20J. His comment was, if he had the funds, he would partner with me to get a Mooney. That made me feel pretty good, that the CFI in a way would endorse me like that. I also asked him about starting my IFR, if they are going to require tHat many hours.

 

[JHW]

Out of frustration, I had a few hours before work so I grabbed a Warrior and logged a whopping 0.6 hrs. I had not flow one since my checkride about 6 weeks ago. Did 4 landings, pretty much greased three of them, and the fourth was fine.

To clarify, not all those hours need to be dual, only 15 must be. The remaining hours however, they want the higher rated pilot on the policy in the plane with me, but apparently will then allow me to count it as PIC. I do not hold the policy at this time, my relative holds the policy and owns the plane. I would not be buying that plane, he is willing to let me use it however once cleared.

I mentioned as a joke to my CFI (who just happened to be in the FBO) when I flew today, I should just circumvent the insurance issue and buy a cheaper plane they would insure me on once I have done the training, like a M20J. His comment was, if he had the funds, he would partner with me to get a Mooney. That made me feel pretty good, that the CFI in a way would endorse me like that. I also asked him about starting my IFR, if they are going to require tHat many hours.

IMO if you expect to take a family of 4 in a 4-seater it needs to be a substantial 4-seater. 182, V35, etc. If you buy something that the family can't use then it is just "dad's toy" and that isn't going to pan out so well for dad.