This awesome airplane is not right for you if you need to see the logbooks

If they're serious, and know what they're doing, the buyer is going to spend the $5 to get the CD from the FAA and won't need my logs until they review the FAA disc. At that point, I'm open to discussion.
It takes a while to get the CD from the FAA. In a seller's market, there will not be time.

My plane was advertised on Monday, I made an offer Monday afternoon. Another offer was made Tuesday. Mine was accepted on Wednesday. It was delivered for pre-buy on the next Monday. I closed on Friday. So 12 days from ad to done.
 
Seller: I have all the logs in pdf
buyer: No, I want to see all the logs in searchable format
That would be especially weird, because PDF files are searchable.
 
Computers don’t even come with DVD/CD drives anymore.


Some govt offices still use fax machines. Thankfully there are plenty of apps for your phone that will copy your documents and fax them over your cell phone signal.
 
I've come across some really funny people during the plane buying process.
Buying and selling aircraft can bring out some weird emotions and attitude in many if not most pilots.

I've tried to help many people buy and sale aircraft with very weird, funny or just nonsense-able experiences. Some of these people are normally very down to earth and logical. They get emotional though when it comes to aircraft ownership. I have so many stories of deals and partnerships that got really ugly. I think it would be easier to help a pilot with selling their child then their airplane. I know it would be easier to help them sale their wives in many cases... :rolleyes2:
 
Yes, from the selling side, this story looks different...I too have bought 6 airplanes and sold 5. Here is what I've typically had happen:

Potential buyer (PB): "What kind of radio is the Nav/Comm 1?"

Me: "As it says in the detailed ad, a Garmin 430."

PB: "And the Nav/Comm 2?"

Me: "As it says in the detailed ad, a King KX-165"

PB: "And what kind of transponder?"

Me: "As it says in the detailed ad...say, you did read the ad, right?"

PB: "I look at a lot of planes."

Me: "Oooookay..." (Thinking now this guy is either a broker or a tire kicker) "I've got someone coming in a hour to look at the plane, so I can't talk right now. I'll call you if the plane doesn't sell." (I don't, and I won't anyway).

This is AT LEAST 90% of the phone calls. Unless it's the same guy calling back (as you were accused of). Just saying. Oh, and all my planes have sold at, or at least within 5%, of my original asking price. Many years ago, it sometimes took 6 months to sell. I think most planes sell much faster now.
 
The seller could put the faa files on a site (or the sellers log and pictures dvd) so the wait is much shorter.

I guess some sellers might doctor the info
 
Some govt offices still use fax machines. Thankfully there are plenty of apps for your phone that will copy your documents and fax them over your cell phone signal.
Off-topic, but some medical offices still use fax machines. Primary reason being, although they are completely insecure in any modern sense, they are easy to use and usually have an exemption for all the compliance domains that require secure data transmission. So the pharmacy can either use a fax, or they can figure out how to do multi-factor authentication w/ encrypted email, logging, etc. That second part sounds easy, but it's not if you have high employee turnover.

Back to topic, and as to the flip side of this discussion, there were at least 3 indications of a problem as I read it. One, the seller contacted the potential buyer and claimed the buyer reached out to them first. Two, the seller didn't want to make the logs available at all until the mark, I mean buyer, had seen the aircraft. Three, the con, I mean seller, used the phrase "I work on a trust basis."
 

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying - technical ineptitude in 2023 is not knowing how to upload the data to the cloud, and making somebody buy a physical device to read your preferred 1980's and 90's technology. I shouldn't have to wait days/weeks for physical media to arrive and purchase extra equipment just to read your logbook. I'll just move on.

(And I'm well younger than the cutoff to be called a boomer...)
 
Buying and selling aircraft can bring out some weird emotions and attitude in many if not most pilots.

I've tried to help many people buy and sale aircraft with very weird, funny or just nonsense-able experiences. Some of these people are normally very down to earth and logical. They get emotional though when it comes to aircraft ownership. I have so many stories of deals and partnerships that got really ugly. I think it would be easier to help a pilot with selling their child then their airplane. I know it would be easier to help them sale their wives in many cases... :rolleyes2:

My current plane, I bought through a broker and I'm glad I did. I don't think I would have completed the sale if I had to deal with the seller directly. The broker talked some sense into the seller. I made a pretty fair offer for his plane. Sure, it was a deal for me but the seller could have rejected the offer. He didn't. He accepted the offer. I arranged the pre-purchase inspection, got a clean bill and I then embarked on the long trip to go and pick up the plane. The broker was going to fly it back for me while giving me a checkout in it on the way home. I arrived, briefly met the seller to shake hands, exchange some pleasantries and off he went. Broker and I started a pre-flight inspection and he immediately noticed that the push to talk buttons are gone (they're strap one), fire extinguisher is gone, first aid kit is gone and a bunch of other little items like control locks, pitot tube cover, etc. Broker then called the seller. I didn't hear the conversation but the broker was p*****. Ten minutes later, seller came by and brought the push to talk button, fire extinguisher and first aid kit. It was super smokey that day so we knew we couldn't ferry the plane home. We just went up for a pattern so I can say I flew the plane and didn't come out for nothing. We asked the seller if we can put the plane back into his hangar until I can pick it up and he said no to that. Luckily, the local mechanic who did the pre-purchase inspection had space and stored the plane for me. On the way back to the commercial airport, the broker told me what happened in the background that I didn't know of. After the seller accepted the offer and I got the results of the pre-purchase inspection, the seller called the broker saying he wanted out of the deal because he thinks the plane is worth more than what I'm paying for it. The broker said the contract he signed is binding. Then again, on the day I was traveling to pick up the plane, the seller called the broker saying he wants more money, I'm getting too good of a deal. Apparently after the broker told him again, that the contract is binding, the seller went ahead and removed everything from the plane that wasn't permanently attached. When the broker found out about that during the pre-flight, he called him and said that every single item that was visible in the ad photos must remain on the plane and is part of the sale, unless otherwise stated in the ad. Plus, he told him that removing the push to talk button, fire extinguisher and first aid kit rendered the plane un-airworthy and the ad and purchasing agreement was for an airworthy aircraft. Eventually (after I left to go back home), the seller brought everything back and gave all items to the broker. A week later, the broker ferried the plane to me and gave me a local check out flight and all was well at the end of the day. However, I'm so glad I worked with a broker because I probably would have backed out of buying the plane at the first interaction with the seller.
 
It is a simple thing to scan or even take a picture of any relevant log book pages. I scanned my logs as soon as I bought the plane so if they were ever lost I had a back up. I have the logs back to '57 and it took maybe 1/2 hour to scan on the copier in my office. New entries get scanned as we go.

My favorite was a guy in Iowa explaining why the last annual was 3 years ago but it had been flown a bunch since. "This is Iowa."

He told me how when he bought the plane he called the guy sent him $500 and then went out and picked it up. The price is right why should it be any more complicated than that? I guess that is how it works in Iowa.
 
Psssst! @Chrisgoesflying , buddy....

 
Last plane I sold I had a perspective buyer that said, "If you fly it to me in Canada (~1500 miles) I'll give you the full asking price for it."

Next ... :rolleyes:
 
not all pdfs.
I scanned my logbooks into .png’s and then made a PDF of them. Newer versions of MacOS can find text in images and Apple’s Preview app can find text on the logbook pages that are typed—even if they aren’t perfectly aligned—but not the handwritten ones. I suspect that Windows (or Acrobat) has a similar feature.
 
The boomer mentality is STRONG. $15 for an external CD Drive. Your technical ineptitude is not the FAA's or the sellers problem.
I have a DVD drive, but if I didn't -- and lots of people don't, most of them younger -- why on earth go buy one just becuase someone either can't figure out how to or doesn't want to either upload the same information to a file share, or just email it?

It is a simple thing to scan or even take a picture of any relevant log book pages. I scanned my logs as soon as I bought the plane so if they were ever lost I had a back up. I have the logs back to '57 and it took maybe 1/2 hour to scan on the copier in my office. New entries get scanned as we go.

My favorite was a guy in Iowa explaining why the last annual was 3 years ago but it had been flown a bunch since. "This is Iowa."

He told me how when he bought the plane he called the guy sent him $500 and then went out and picked it up. The price is right why should it be any more complicated than that? I guess that is how it works in Iowa.
I ran into similar things when I was shopping for Champs. A surprising number were well out of annual but still flying off of someone's farm strip in ND or wherever. I figured that also meant there was a high probability of some unauthorized owner maintenance having happened over the years. Not necessarily a show stopper, but it would certainly impact what I'd be willing to pay for what I'd now consider to be a "project" airplane that would probably require substantial cost to being back into compliance.

I don't think it's an Iowa thing, it seems to be more of a rural thing.
 
Psssst! @Chrisgoesflying , buddy....


Paragraphs are overrated.
 
Newer versions of MacOS can find text in images and Apple’s Preview app can find text on the logbook pages that are typed—even if they aren’t perfectly aligned—but not the handwritten ones. I suspect that Windows (or Acrobat) has a similar feature.

Just to note another source if someone uses an iPhone ... the Notes app will allow you to scan documents into the phone.
 
The outdated mentality is one expecting that people using current technology make special efforts to accommodate anachronisms.
 
I just sold a 60-year old airplane. I scanned (actually took cell phone photos) of ten years of logs and put them in the ad for the airplane. Someone called me and said they had to see all the logs before they'd think about looking at the airplane. I told them to pound sand. 60 years of logs is a crapload of pictures.
 
My current plane, I bought through a broker and I'm glad I did. I don't think I would have completed the sale if I had to deal with the seller directly. The broker talked some sense into the seller. I made a pretty fair offer for his plane. Sure, it was a deal for me but the seller could have rejected the offer. He didn't. He accepted the offer. I arranged the pre-purchase inspection, got a clean bill and I then embarked on the long trip to go and pick up the plane. The broker was going to fly it back for me while giving me a checkout in it on the way home. I arrived, briefly met the seller to shake hands, exchange some pleasantries and off he went. Broker and I started a pre-flight inspection and he immediately noticed that the push to talk buttons are gone (they're strap one), fire extinguisher is gone, first aid kit is gone and a bunch of other little items like control locks, pitot tube cover, etc. Broker then called the seller. I didn't hear the conversation but the broker was p*****. Ten minutes later, seller came by and brought the push to talk button, fire extinguisher and first aid kit. It was super smokey that day so we knew we couldn't ferry the plane home. We just went up for a pattern so I can say I flew the plane and didn't come out for nothing. We asked the seller if we can put the plane back into his hangar until I can pick it up and he said no to that. Luckily, the local mechanic who did the pre-purchase inspection had space and stored the plane for me. On the way back to the commercial airport, the broker told me what happened in the background that I didn't know of. After the seller accepted the offer and I got the results of the pre-purchase inspection, the seller called the broker saying he wanted out of the deal because he thinks the plane is worth more than what I'm paying for it. The broker said the contract he signed is binding. Then again, on the day I was traveling to pick up the plane, the seller called the broker saying he wants more money, I'm getting too good of a deal. Apparently after the broker told him again, that the contract is binding, the seller went ahead and removed everything from the plane that wasn't permanently attached. When the broker found out about that during the pre-flight, he called him and said that every single item that was visible in the ad photos must remain on the plane and is part of the sale, unless otherwise stated in the ad. Plus, he told him that removing the push to talk button, fire extinguisher and first aid kit rendered the plane un-airworthy and the ad and purchasing agreement was for an airworthy aircraft. Eventually (after I left to go back home), the seller brought everything back and gave all items to the broker. A week later, the broker ferried the plane to me and gave me a local check out flight and all was well at the end of the day. However, I'm so glad I worked with a broker because I probably would have backed out of buying the plane at the first interaction with the seller.
Until a moment ago, I used to think that brokers were extraneous. I think you have successfully changed my viewpoint.
 
At the end of the day, so American to balk at the money flow. Yes plenty of tire kickers, but if you make things easy for the buyer or customer, that’s the secret to success. I guess be happy that most Americans won’t, the benchmark to be successful is so low due to laziness of society.

I guess that’s why we all have airplanes. :cool:
 
It was still worth reading, though.
If someone expects others to read their post, then they should make it readable

(in the spirit of some of the posts in this very thread)
 
If someone expects others to read their post, then they should make it readable

(in the spirit of some of the posts in this very thread)
I don't disagree, but since I did read it and found it very informative, I thought a PIREP might be useful to some.
 
If someone expects others to read their post, then they should make it readable

(in the spirit of some of the posts in this very thread)

I never said I'm expecting someone to read my post. If you want to read it, read it. If you don't, don't. I don't get paid either way. ;-)
 
With all this talk about the CD, I wonder who the heck even has a cd rim drive anymore? I mean most folks that are looking at planes should have been able to afford a computer upgrade in the last decade :)
 
I think James Joyce wrote a paragraph that was 30+ pages long, but I didn't read that one either. So in that sense, I find really long paragraphs easier.
 
It takes a while to get the CD from the FAA. In a seller's market, there will not be time.

My plane was advertised on Monday, I made an offer Monday afternoon. Another offer was made Tuesday. Mine was accepted on Wednesday. It was delivered for pre-buy on the next Monday. I closed on Friday. So 12 days from ad to done.

Try https://www.aerospacereports.com/

They'll get you what's on the CD in hours if not minutes, but it'll cost you more than the FAA CD at about $45.

If time is of the essence, these guys are the way to go.
 
My favorite was a guy in Iowa explaining why the last annual was 3 years ago but it had been flown a bunch since. "This is Iowa."

He told me how when he bought the plane he called the guy sent him $500 and then went out and picked it up. The price is right why should it be any more complicated than that? I guess that is how it works in Iowa.
Sounds like a typical Iowa aircraft and owner's mentality to me. Other equally or more rural states likely have similar characteristics.

That said, their approach to a transaction isn't universally bad as long as they have taken the maintenance and inspections a bit more seriously.
 
Sounds like a typical Iowa aircraft and owner's mentality to me. Other equally or more rural states likely have similar characteristics.

That said, their approach to a transaction isn't universally bad as long as they have taken the maintenance and inspections a bit more seriously.
While in med school, money was tight (obviously), but I wanted to buy a plane. I found a print ad for an ercoupe that in the ad seemed pretty decent and really really REALLY cheap, located at a private field in the wilds of Michigan's upper peninsula. I went and looked at it (about a 9 hour drive each way for me then). Two things I remember, it was painted with a paint brush, and the owner laughed when I asked to see the logs, saying, "Logs? What logs?" He went on to say that out in the sticks, many guys don't bother with logs (and I would assume also don't bother with mechanics, paint shops, approved parts, etc).

BTW, I didn't buy it.
 
With all this talk about the CD, I wonder who the heck even has a cd rim drive anymore? I mean most folks that are looking at planes should have been able to afford a computer upgrade in the last decade :)

Anyone who can afford to look at buying an airplane can afford a computer upgrade, sure. Even more affordable is the purchase of an external CD/DVD drive. I have a couple of external DVD drives, both of which are more than 10 years old.

Some people don't have to have the latest gizmo. You don't have to fix what ain't broke.
 
Anyone who can afford to look at buying an airplane can afford a computer upgrade, sure. Even more affordable is the purchase of an external CD/DVD drive. I have a couple of external DVD drives, both of which are more than 10 years old.

Some people don't have to have the latest gizmo. You don't have to fix what ain't broke.
The latest gizmo? The internet has been around for more than 10 years now. And it's not more affordable to buy a cd drive than to not buy a cd drive.
 
The latest gizmo? The internet has been around for more than 10 years now. And it's not more affordable to buy a cd drive than to not buy a cd drive.

really, the internet has been around for more than 10 years? could you explain that to me? good grief.

Oh, and it's not more affordable to buy cloud storage than not buy cloud storage.
 
ok ok ok...I'll upload the logs to dropbox. Now here's the problem....those of you needling me about ancient technology...obviously you and everyone else has the latest and greatest hardware, and a superfast network that can easily and trivially handle a large dropbox file. Not only that, but also know how to use dropbox, unzip files, has a PDF reader....shall I go on? Please remember that personal computers are now common appliances and sold that way, and no knowledge is assumed or expected nor is any help offered. Afterall, everyone knows how to use a refrigerator, right? Just another appliance. There are pilots in my EAA chapter flying Young Eagles that have an iPad and that's all they know about computers.

Example - One of the advantages of university faculty, I get to sit in on any class (as long as there's room). I've taken aerodynamics, orbital mechanics (yes, for me, these topics are fun), and right now, Music Technology - digital music scores, audio recording, audio & video recording. One project involved multiple files zipped together. Other than the prof, I was the only one in class who 1) knew what a zip file was and 2) how to make it happen. Fortunately, the prof provided excellent step-by-step instructors for the students.

Hm....next semester - computer forensics in the cybersecurity program looks like fun.
 
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