Thinking of Purchasing High Hour First Aircraft

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Robert A Melzer

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ramelzer
Hello,

I am currently looking at purchasing my first plane. Primary use for this plane will be for training both for myself and my father and possibly other family members as time goes on.

The plane is a 1964 Piper Cherokee 140 with the 150hp motor. The paint is 9/10, interior is 10/10, avionics are 6/10. All AD's have been adhered to. no hard landing or any issues with the Airframe. Airframe time is 5500hrs. Engine is at 2200 SMOH, 1700 STOH, and has been flown 95hrs a year on average. The log comes with all Oil analysis since the engine was overhauled in 1996 and shows no signs of excess metal in the oil with the exception of break-in period for new cylinders.

The owner is asking $13,000 for the aircraft and I feel that is a good buy. I have factored the cost of a rebuilt engine and I still feel this is a decent buy, considering overall quality of the rest of the aircraft.

What do you think? What do you think of using the current engine until we see signs of wear in the oil, or a drop in compression?

Thank you,

Robert
 
Sounds to my uneducated mind like a good deal. I'd fly behind that engine until it started making metal. Find a good A&P and follow his advice on when an overhaul is needed. TBO is important only to commercial operators, Part 91 flies like us.

Try it before you buy it. Personally, a Cherokee wouldn't work for me based on my experience with a 1969 Arrow (same basic airframe with folding gear and more power in the nose). I don't know precisely what the problem was for me, but 3 hours was my limit as my knees didn't like something about that plane and after 3 hours it was all I could do to crawl out of it. YMMV, check for yourself.

That said, if it works for you $13,000 sounds like a deal one would have to look at. Get a good pre-buy (annual inspection) by someone who was not involved in the maintenance of that airplane before you buy. Avoid surprises.
 
Welcome to the forum. You picked the right place to turn to for opinions. Get a good pre buy,the worth of the aircraft is the price you are happy paying.
 
Thank you,

We have arranged for an annual prior to completion of purchase, with the option of turning down the purchase if anything pops up during the annual that we are uncomfortable with. The Mechanic works at the airfield that the plane has resided but he is not the mechanic that has been inspecting the aircraft.
 
What do you mean by “avionics 6/10”? Are the avionics old, in poor working order, or both? Depending on what your plans are, and to some extent your location, those 6/10 avionics could wind up costing you a ton of money. And $25k for the overhaul. The engine will be just fine until it isn’t. I like that you’re being given the option to back out if the annual shows anything you don’t like. I don’t like that the mechanic is on the field. But that’s just me.
 
Sounds like a good price to me. Not that you can't keep flying on the high time engine assuming it's not making metal and the inspection doesn't turn up anything, your thoughts regarding factoring in the cost of an overhaul or rebuilt engine are wise. I've got a '65 150hp Cherokee with a 200 hour engine in it, w/ a 4/10 interior at best and maybe 5/10 paint... it flies great, new transponder/adsb-out, only one nav/com/GS, markerbeacon/audio panel, so minimal IFR. It's a great low cost, relatively easy to maintain and live-with plane. By the time I get her where I REALLY want her, I'll have spent probably four times what you're going to spend on your purchase price. Can you elaborate on what 6/10 avionics are? Also of some concern is how those 95 hrs/yr on average were divided up. Has it sat idle for a long time (years) recently? It would have been a lot cheaper for me to buy a plane like yours (9/10 paint, 10/10 interior, and possibly better avionics) at your price, then swap in my engine than it is slowy bringing my plane up to the level of my engine!
 
Avionics 6/10 shows where the owner’s wallet balked at the big money.

ADs adhered to is a legal requirement and not a plus in any way. They had no choice.

No hard landings and such, maybe, maybe not. People lie. Inspect inspect inspect.

Airframe hours don’t matter except for the maybe maybe maybe thing of someone over stressing the airframe in the past. Condition does. Inspect inspect inspect.

The engine is timed out. It will likely run longer than TBO, and many have proved TBO isn’t a limitation, condition is, but the price of an engine overhaul needs to be roughly the discount of value on the overall aircraft at this point in its life. If equivalent airplanes with new engines hanging on them are priced “one engine higher” than this airplane, that’s reasonable. It’s going to need one soon.

Side note: Engine could fail in years or tomorrow. This airplane is a bad deal if you don’t have the cash available after the purchase to replace it tomorrow. Personally I don’t recommend anyone own who can’t pop for an engine tomorrow. Reason: I’ve seen airplanes sit for years while the owner saved up for an engine replacement. Even worse, the airplane was owned by three and two lost their jobs in that timeframe. Ability to replace an engine tomorrow is just standard owner maintenance to me after seeing that disaster unfold.

Oil analysis is nice. Gives some peace of mind. It can still eat a valve tomorrow. :) I think you get what I’m sayin’ by now. :)

Definitely run the engine until it does something that makes you nervous to fly behind it without a spare on the other wing.

Pricing wise, I can’t help there. Just don’t pay too much for a high time airframe, that’s all you’re getting. The engine is nearly done. That’s for the seller who doesn’t want to replace it, to eat.

The vast majority of older airplanes aren’t worth much as aluminum goes. The engine and avionics are the vast majority of their total value.

But pilots buy pretty paint and upholstery all the time.

Inspect inspect inspect.
 
Sounds like a great beginner airplane and would be perfect for training. If nothing else, you'll be able to sell it for the same amount. If the inspection looks good, go for it and fly the heck out of it. GOOD LUCK!!!
 
In addition to all of the above...

Depending on where you are and where you fly, 2020 is right around the corner. So don't forget about the ADS-B out requirement.
 
Thank you for your input. Unfortunately the owner has backed out of the sale. He said he just cant part with the plane as he loved it so much. Disappointed, but I am confident we will find something.
 
Robert A Melzer said:
Thank you for your input. Unfortunately the owner has backed out of the sale. He said he just cant part with the plane as he loved it so much. Disappointed, but I am confident we will find something.
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Must be a Cherokee thing. I was set to buy a really nice mid-time 140 years ago at a great price for my first plane, and after the usual pre-buy and test flight offered the seller their asking price and was prepared to issue a check when the seller suddenly backed out. Didn't want more money, just got cold feet. I wound up getting an AA-1A a month later with better avionics for less than the Cherokee, and learned to love the Grumman series. I flew the tar out of that little bubble-top two-seater. I still think the AA-1X series is one of the most fun planes to fly, ever, as long as you don't need to carry luggage. It had a bulletproof O-235-C2C engine and could outrun most light single 4-seaters, and oh, what a view! The AA-5X series have a roof, which takes some of the panache away.
 
Bummer. Sorry to hear that; it sounded like a decent deal, even at cost + engine overhaul, at least depending on the avionics details. Something else will come along!
 
It was a pretty good deal. Hope the owner figures out how to get the engine fixed when it’s time or he will probably have negative value.

I do have to ask - when you said the interior and paint were really good, do you mean like factory new good? Because that’s a 10.
 
13k? A paint a 10? Sounds like a easy flip...
 
What Shepherd said. I'd put the cost of a new engine in the bank and let it start drawing interest. If ya ain't got that money now, I'd think twice
 
luvflyin said:
What Shepherd said. I'd put the cost of a new engine in the bank and let it start drawing interest. If ya ain't got that money now, I'd think twice
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Right ! never spend all your budget on the purchase. specially with a high timed engine.
 
Robert A Melzer said:
Hello,
I was actually thinking of buying this same plane. He is in the Sacramento area and was going to fly it over for me to look at last week. I never saw it cause I backed out just prior to seeing and maybe buying. Sounds like a nice plane but too risky for me being beyond TBO.


I am currently looking at purchasing my first plane. Primary use for this plane will be for training both for myself and my father and possibly other family members as time goes on.

The plane is a 1964 Piper Cherokee 140 with the 150hp motor. The paint is 9/10, interior is 10/10, avionics are 6/10. All AD's have been adhered to. no hard landing or any issues with the Airframe. Airframe time is 5500hrs. Engine is at 2200 SMOH, 1700 STOH, and has been flown 95hrs a year on average. The log comes with all Oil analysis since the engine was overhauled in 1996 and shows no signs of excess metal in the oil with the exception of break-in period for new cylinders.

The owner is asking $13,000 for the aircraft and I feel that is a good buy. I have factored the cost of a rebuilt engine and I still feel this is a decent buy, considering overall quality of the rest of the aircraft.

What do you think? What do you think of using the current engine until we see signs of wear in the oil, or a drop in compression?

Thank you,

Robert
Click to expand...
 
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