Thinking about a 1971 Custom Musketeer.....

C. Kelley

C. Kelley

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C. Kelley
I am torn about aircraft ownership. I have read what AOPA has to offer but am still worried about it. I have been looking at a 1971 Beech Musketeer Custom for $28,900 with 1322 SMOH. The avionics set up is outdated but other than that it is very clean with complete logs.

http://www.controller.com/listingsd...1-BEECHCRAFT-C23-MUSKETEER-CUSTOM/1161171.htm

Basically I have under $10,000 in my bank account. I currently live with my parents because I travel a lot (~90%/yr) with my job. I would like to get married and own a house in the next few years also.

I have seen this aircraft in person and would really like to get in on this deal. I currently rent a 1978 Sundowner at $105/hr. It always pains me to shell out that kind of cash for every hour of flight time. I usually try and fly as much as possible when I am not working so it usually adds up to between $500-$1000 per month in rentals. I am wanting to to start my instrument rating soon also.

I have heard that parts for this plane are expensive. Does any one here have any insight about what I should do here?
 
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I dunno, if my liquid assets were $10k, I don't think I'd take out a loan for what basically is a toy, but that's your call.

If you're looking to lower your per-hour cost, maybe finding a club would be good.


Trapper John
 
If your looking at owning to reduce costs you should go back to your calculations and double check your assumptions. At 5-10 hours a month your not likely to save any money and could potenially spend a lot more. Does your work/travel allow you to use your plane to travel? If that is the case then it may make a great deal of sense to buy but if not then you may find yourself flying less because of repairs to your plane wen you want to fly in your limited time home. Lots of questions here but not enough details to give you firm advice.
 
If your looking at owning to reduce costs you should go back to your calculations and double check your assumptions. At 5-10 hours a month your not likely to save any money and could potenially spend a lot more.
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I reckon I more concerned about spending money on something I do not own. I have never liked renting things (apartments, equipment, etc.) because in the end I don't own and I'm not putting money towards something I own if that makes any sense.

Unfortunately my job does not condone the use of personal aircraft for business travel.

What is really getting to me is the maintenance part of it. I don't want to purchase the aircraft and then be so broke trying to maintain it that I can't afford to fly it anymore.

I looked into leaseback to help out with maintenance expense but the opportunities here just didn't seem worth it.

I have a friend who wants to possibly co-own but the logistics of it are confusing and are difficult to iron out.

If you're looking to lower your per-hour cost, maybe finding a club would be good.
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This is really what I want but I have had no luck finding one around my area. Is there a website where people post on open club positions possibly?

Basically, I had considered ownership for the future but this aircraft come along. I really like it and it seems to be a solid deal. I know there will be other deals like it come along but its what I want and it's an hour drive away but the timing is just not good.
 
You could kill two birds with one stone on this one. Rent a plane and fly around to all the airports within a driving distance of your home and post notes in the pilot's area asking for info on a partnership/club perhaps with a note that your considering starting a partnership/club around the plane your looking at. You might also check to see if there is a flying club over at Fort Benning. While you usually need to have a military connection to join the club, often times belong to the CAP will get you in and that in itself is not a bad idea anyway.

hope this helps
 
Parts for airplanes are cheap. It's the attached FAA paperwork that's expensive! :mad3:

Seriously, my personal comfort level with ownership was when I decided I could write a $10,000 check if something major cropped up and not bat an eye or lose sleep over it.

Your wallet's risk tolerance may vary...
 
Keep in mind that *if* it doesn't work financially for you, then it is hard to unload even at a loss.

Personally, I wouldn't take a loan for it, but YMMV.
 
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!

Let me repeat that in case I was a little unclear.

NO!!

You are living close to the edge on finances. The last thing you want to do is burden yourself with an "asset" that has a strong chance of emptying that wallet. Do not buy this plane, or any plane. One crankshaft AD and you're out $7000 cash, or you have an expensive tiedown ornament attached to the ropes.

Don't get hung up on renting. A rental rate is nothing more than an hourly figure of the total cost of ownership. Instead of buying the whole plane, then trying to "earn" back the fixed costs by flying. An aircraft is not an asset in the sense that a house is. It will lose value. Aircraft are not investments.

If you really want to own a house, and you only have $10k in the bank, do not overextend yourself by locking into an airplane. Maybe join a flying club. Do not do a leaseback. Only the field operator makes money on a leaseback, and you will still have capital tied up in the aircraft.

Patience grasshopper. Some day your ship will come in. For now, rent.
 
You can figure a minimum of $450.00- $500.00 a month just to own it,then if you want to fly it, add $100.00 an hour for flight time. Renting is much cheaper than owning. If you go experimental, the cost can be reduced by 1/4 to 1/2 of a certified airplane.
 
wsuffa said:
Keep in mind that *if* it doesn't work financially for you, then it is hard to unload even at a loss.
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Yeah that has been a huge hang up for me regarding this.

Yeah the more I am hearing the more I am going to hold off. I reckon I just wanted some support on this to make sure I wasn't going to regret my decision in either direction. The more I have thought it about the last two months and today with this post, the more I want to walk away.

Oh well, there will be another deal along some day.
 
C. Kelley said:
Yeah that has been a huge hang up for me regarding this.

Yeah the more I am hearing the more I am going to hold off. I reckon I just wanted some support on this to make sure I wasn't going to regret my decision in either direction. The more I have thought it about the last two months and today with this post, the more I want to walk away.

Oh well, there will be another deal along some day.
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Oh yeah...get on www.barnstormers.com and prepare to be overwhelmed!
 
C. Kelley said:
Yeah that has been a huge hang up for me regarding this.

Yeah the more I am hearing the more I am going to hold off. I reckon I just wanted some support on this to make sure I wasn't going to regret my decision in either direction. The more I have thought it about the last two months and today with this post, the more I want to walk away.

Oh well, there will be another deal along some day.
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No regrets. Good decision. An airplane is DEFINITELY not something you want to stretch to own. They can bite you, really quickly.
 
flyersfan31 said:
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!

Let me repeat that in case I was a little unclear.

NO!!

You are living close to the edge on finances. The last thing you want to do is burden yourself with an "asset" that has a strong chance of emptying that wallet. Do not buy this plane, or any plane. One crankshaft AD and you're out $7000 cash, or you have an expensive tiedown ornament attached to the ropes.

Don't get hung up on renting. A rental rate is nothing more than an hourly figure of the total cost of ownership. Instead of buying the whole plane, then trying to "earn" back the fixed costs by flying. An aircraft is not an asset in the sense that a house is. It will lose value. Aircraft are not investments.

If you really want to own a house, and you only have $10k in the bank, do not overextend yourself by locking into an airplane. Maybe join a flying club. Do not do a leaseback. Only the field operator makes money on a leaseback, and you will still have capital tied up in the aircraft.

Patience grasshopper. Some day your ship will come in. For now, rent.
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I'm with you on this one, unless there's a workable plan to deal with the inevitable unexpected expenses, going into debt for an airplane is all too likely to lead to financial ruin. In addition, one shouldn't expect to save money by purchasing an airplane instead of renting unless they are planning on flying at least 150 and preferrably 200+ hours per year. And if that's the case, there needs to be room in the bank account for the cost of those 150-200 hours (i.e. about $15-25k per year).

A partnership on the right airplane would make more sense IMO.
 
Hi there.

First off - I agree with the advice already given. Patience.

Second - don't worry about the great deal on the Musketeer. There are literally thousands of planes for sale at any given moment, and if you look hard enough, there are always good deals available, especially in the entry level single category. Save your cash now, make more money, and you'll be able to get just as good of a deal on the same model (or different model) in the future...


C. Kelley said:
Yeah that has been a huge hang up for me regarding this.

Yeah the more I am hearing the more I am going to hold off. I reckon I just wanted some support on this to make sure I wasn't going to regret my decision in either direction. The more I have thought it about the last two months and today with this post, the more I want to walk away.

Oh well, there will be another deal along some day.
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gismo said:
I'm with you on this one, unless there's a workable plan to deal with the inevitable unexpected expenses, going into debt for an airplane is all too likely to lead to financial ruin. In addition, one shouldn't expect to save money by purchasing an airplane instead of renting unless they are planning on flying at least 150 and preferrably 200+ hours per year. And if that's the case, there needs to be room in the bank account for the cost of those 150-200 hours (i.e. about $15-25k per year).

A partnership on the right airplane would make more sense IMO.
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Agree.
 
One more comment. $105 wet really isn't too bad.

If you want to PM me with your email, I can email you an ops cost spreadsheet that I used when buying my plane. It allows flexible entry of a number of cost parameters, and then calculates the hourly cost with and without reserves for 100-500hrs/year.

I plugged in conservative numbers for the Musketeer (assuming 20% downpayment), and ended up with the following ops costs:

100hrs. Direct costs. No reserve = $88/hr.
200hrs. Direct costs. No reserve = $60/hr.
100hrs. Direct + reserves & depreciation. = $120/hr.
200hrs. Direct + reserves & depreciation. = $92/hr.
 
Buy something cheap and fun and then rent to fly if you need a cross country ifr platform.

There are airplanes (experimental) that are fun that can be had for under $15,000.

I've been looking at ownership lately, and until I can outright buy something with cash *AND* turn around and replace the engine the next day with cash, I just don't think it's a good idea. As much as I hate it - that's life - either wait or find more money :)
 
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I basically agree with everybody else on this thread. No sense in going into debt for what will be essentially a toy. Now, maybe add one or two partners, and you are talking. Maintenance bills divided by three are a lot easier to take, and split three ways you will still have the airplane for probably 60 percent of the times you want it.

One more thing, at 28k, a ratty old musketeer with 1320 SMOH, lousy radios and a questionable maintenance history isn't even remotely a good deal. Since the airplane has only around 2.6k total time since new almost forty years ago, you can assume that that engine isn't going to be making TBO. It's also probably been sitting in that airplane for about 15 years.

There are a lot more interesting/exciting/efficient/fast/better looking/ shorter landing airplanes on the market for that price, take a look at Barnstormers and be prepared to be wowed.
 
jesse said:
Buy something cheap and fun and then rent to fly if you need a cross country ifr platform.

There are airplanes (experimental) that are fun that can be had for under $15,000.

I've been looking at ownership lately, and until I can outright buy something with cash *AND* turn around and replace the engine the next day with cash, I just don't think it's a good idea. As much as I hate it - that's life - either wait or find more money :)
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Jesse adds a subtle but important nuance to the conversation. If aircraft ownership ranks up there with homeownership and a happy marriage, consider that you could do most of your flying in a cheap but affordable conveyance (i.e., a roached-out 150). This relieves you of the rental premium on those weekend hamburger trips. On the bigger trips, rent something from the local FBO. The fact is, you fly a lot more if when you own an airplane, so the amortization numbers are hard to project.

On the flipside, if the goal is to own a home, have a wife, and fly a safe, IFR-capable transportation machine, you'll need a healthy income and savings. 200 and 1/2 is no place to be with dollar-store equipment.

At the end of the day, it's down to how bright you think your future income prospects are. If better days lie ahead, the quicker path to the goal is probably to save and invest in the depressed real-estate market. Your wife will be happier, and future appreciation will afford you the opportunity to shop for the perfect aircraft.

But never take investment advice from a pilot.
 
Buy the plane, get rid of the wife and rent a girl whenever you need one.
 
Agree with most others. I've owned an airplane for over ten years. In your situation, rent or find a club. I know you don't want to hear this but take our advice.
 
jesse said:
Buy something cheap and fun and then rent to fly if you need a cross country ifr platform.

There are airplanes (experimental) that are fun that can be had for under $15,000.
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Not only experimentals. There are certified a/c available for under $15 to use for enjoyable, fun, low fuel burn flying.
 
gismo said:
Assuming the "maintainer" knows what he's doing.
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I have my A&P/IA maintain mine just as he did my certified airplanes, the difference is the cost of parts and all the other FAA BS that comes along with certified airplanes. When a part for a certified airplane is $1000.00 and then the same exact part for an experimental is $75.00, that makes a big difference. Kind of like the panel light dimmer switch for a Cessna, $2500.00 bucks, but the EXACT same switch for an experimental is $50.00.
 
Dean said:
I have my A&P/IA maintain mine just as he did my certified airplanes, the difference is the cost of parts and all the other FAA BS that comes along with certified airplanes. When a part for a certified airplane is $1000.00 and then the same exact part for an experimental is $75.00, that makes a big difference. Kind of like the panel light dimmer switch for a Cessna, $2500.00 bucks, but the EXACT same switch for an experimental is $50.00.
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Oh, I agree completely and after 30 years of owning and flying airplanes it still amazes me how ridiculous some part prices are. My only point was/is that just because someone owns an experimental (especially if they haven't built one) doesn't mean they know how to maintain it properly. I've seen many well made and well maintained homebuilts as well as several that were repaired poorly. Understanding the difference between an inexpensive but aircraft quality part and a cheaper substitute seems to be beyond some owners of experimental aircraft (and some certified ones as well). You're panel light dimmer is a good case in point. You could waste your money on a $2500 Cessna certified part, spend wisely on a good $50 part or go with a piece of turd for $2. Each might work, but the POS would likely be inadequate and potentially unsafe.
 
Thank you all for your help on this one. I just wanted to get the opinions of those who had been there and are currently there. I am definitely going to walk away from this one. I think my girlfriend is happy because this will amount to a nicer engagement ring for her and possibly a house for the future....instead of my original plan of just throwing a tarp over the wings.

Buy the plane, get rid of the wife and rent a girl whenever you need one.
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Wish you could have seen my girlfriend's face when she saw this one lol.

One day I guess.....one day.
 
C. Kelley said:
I am torn about aircraft ownership. I have read what AOPA has to offer but am still worried about it. I have been looking at a 1971 Beech Musketeer Custom for $28,900 with 1322 SMOH. The avionics set up is outdated but other than that it is very clean with complete logs.

Basically I have under $10,000 in my bank account. I currently live with my parents because I travel a lot (~90%/yr) with my job. I would like to get married and own a house in the next few years also.

I have seen this aircraft in person and would really like to get in on this deal. I currently rent a 1978 Sundowner at $105/hr. It always pains me to shell out that kind of cash for every hour of flight time. I usually try and fly as much as possible when I am not working so it usually adds up to between $500-$1000 per month in rentals.

I have heard that parts for this plane are expensive. Does any one here have any insight about what I should do here?
Click to expand...

C. Kelley said:
I reckon I more concerned about spending money on something I do not own. I have never liked renting things (apartments, equipment, etc.) because in the end I don't own and I'm not putting money towards something I own if that makes any sense.

Unfortunately my job does not condone the use of personal aircraft for business travel.

What is really getting to me is the maintenance part of it. I don't want to purchase the aircraft and then be so broke trying to maintain it that I can't afford to fly it anymore.

I looked into leaseback to help out with maintenance expense but the opportunities here just didn't seem worth it.

I have a friend who wants to possibly co-own but the logistics of it are confusing and are difficult to iron out.
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You have a major misconception in thinking an aircraft is a capital asset, it's not, it's a liability. If you travel most of the year on your job (as I do) and can't use your plane for business travel, then you have no business owning an airplane. If you leave an airplane sit for weeks at a time, you will have a maintenance nightmare. $105 an hour will be CHEAP compared to what it will cost you to own the Musketeer, and if you don't spend the money required to keep the planbe up, your capital investment will lose all of its value. You don't know enough to make a leaseback work. The only way I've seen it work is when an A&P/IA leases back a plane to a busy flight school and keeps tight control over the maintenance.
 
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