They're getting old!

mscard88

mscard88

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Mark
So the school's 152 is down for at least a week, flaps stuck down. Suspect flap motor, so no telling how long that'll take to get one. My 152 students don't want to pay extra $$$ for the 172s or the PA140. They're all old and wearing out too. Newest in the fleet are 1980 models. Wish there were a solution but there isn't. Rant over, too friggin' hot anyway.
 
We used to have the same issue with our primary 152. Flaps would get stuck down often. Owners replaced the motor and it hasn’t happened in several years. It shouldn’t take too long to get a replacement, depending on who they source their parts from.
 
MIFlyer said:
Vashon ranger?

100 k roomy cabin for trainer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Maybe in the future. Low useful load (about 275 lbs left with full fuel), not really available yet (only five "real" airplanes in the registry, all owned by Vashon). Hopefully the FAA will up the gross on LSA, then it will become interesting; 750 kg. is the magic number to handle fat Americans.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Maybe in the future. Low useful load (about 275 lbs left with full fuel), not really available yet (only five "real" airplanes in the registry, all owned by Vashon). Hopefully the FAA will up the gross on LSA, then it will become interesting; 750 kg. is the magic number to handle fat Americans.
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i hear that. what's the useful on a 152 with full fuel? Looks like the Vashon useful is around 450 including fuel and the 152 is 570-590 so I guess that's the challenge.

yeah, it'd be great if they could go to 1,500 lbs or something.
 
mscard88 said:
So the school's 152 is down for at least a week, flaps stuck down. Suspect flap motor, so no telling how long that'll take to get one. My 152 students don't want to pay extra $$$ for the 172s or the PA140. They're all old and wearing out too. Newest in the fleet are 1980 models. Wish there were a solution but there isn't. Rant over, too friggin' hot anyway.
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Light Sport. See if you can do a lease. Much newer planes, nice glass, Rotax engines, and learning to land one in a gusting crosswind will enforce good stick & rudder skills.
 
The biggest problem I see is that places always go with the cheapest repair. Get the thing fixed and back on the line. Of course then it breaks again 5 months later.
 
mscard88 said:
So the school's 152 is down for at least a week, flaps stuck down. Suspect flap motor, so no telling how long that'll take to get one. My 152 students don't want to pay extra $$$ for the 172s or the PA140. They're all old and wearing out too. Newest in the fleet are 1980 models. Wish there were a solution but there isn't. Rant over, too friggin' hot anyway.
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Sounds to me like some maintenance officer in your club should spend some money getting these aircraft restored.
stop catering to cheap students and charge what it really costs to do the job properly.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The biggest problem I see is that places always go with the cheapest repair. Get the thing fixed and back on the line. Of course then it breaks again 5 months later.
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Many of these clubs would rather buy a junk part from salvage rather than buy new that will last.
 
Sounds like poor financial planning to me which is pretty common with larger flying clubs. They acquire lots of airplanes to entice new customers and invest in the cosmetics of the club instead of reserves for the airplanes or hiring the number of people required to keep a fleet that large airworthy.
 
Tom-D said:
Sounds to me like some maintenance officer in your club should spend some money getting these aircraft restored.
stop catering to cheap students and charge what it really costs to do the job properly.
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It’s a leaseback and there are very competent A&Ps on the field that work on the flight school’s planes. Parts break/wear out Chief.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The biggest problem I see is that places always go with the cheapest repair. Get the thing fixed and back on the line. Of course then it breaks again 5 months later.
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I don’t see that here Ted. I know you’re not implying that but I haven’t. The A&Ps here (two shops) are very busy, competent, and often backed up. From what I’ve experienced I haven’t seen cheap repairs. Just old airplanes that are used for flight trading and rental. Things break occasionally. This example may just be a flap actuator from what I hear, so hopefully it’ll be back on line soon.
 
Tom-D said:
Many of these clubs would rather buy a junk part from salvage rather than buy new that will last.
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I've seen that, too.

The ever popular "Why would I buy a new [insert whatever]? I can repair this one for half the cost!"

Of course, after 2-3 times of that it's no longer half the cost.

mscard88 said:
I don’t see that here Ted. I know you’re not implying that but I haven’t. The A&Ps here (two shops) are very busy, competent, and often backed up. From what I’ve experienced I haven’t seen cheap repairs. Just old airplanes that are used for flight trading and rental. Things break occasionally. This example may just be a flap actuator from what I hear, so hopefully it’ll be back on line soon.
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Certainly wasn't implying it, and if they have good maintenance, that's very good to hear.

Like you said, they're getting old. Old airplanes can still be reliable and have good dispatchability, but short of a full on restoration (which nobody wants to do and it will cost almost as much as a new one), these things will happen.

And like you, I don't have much of a solution. A lot of these new planes I just don't see holding up like the old ones long term. Now, they may still have the solution of getting something more reliable on the line and training people reasonably enough for the short term. But with the costs being what they are, it's still a hard sell.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
...but short of a full on restoration (which nobody wants to do and it will cost almost as much as a new one)
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So how well are these guys doing? Headed for the dustbin of history?

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/152-reimagined--ascend-172/150-and-152-reimagined
152Reimagined.jpg
 
mscard88 said:
It’s a leaseback and there are very competent A&Ps on the field that work on the flight school’s planes. Parts break/wear out Chief.
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Not nearly as often when a pro-active approach to maintenance is taken.
proper inspections and using new parts rather than use make dispatch much better.
 
Cessna flap failures are most often not the flap motor's fault. It's those microswitches at the flap actuator, and sometimes at the selector. At the actuator, oil and crud drip into the switches and foul them up. Mechanics over-oil the jackscrew. At the selector, they get out of rig, or they break. Like Tom says, proactive maintenance is key. It might cost a little more, but it saves a lot of downtime and the school's bottom line actually does better.
 
You never see any commercial businesses using 50 year old trucks for their business. If you did? Maintenance would be a priority since failure to dispatch is unacceptable. And if they did run old trucks? They’d have good paint jobs. They present an image to the public. Old airplanes usually look like old airplanes. The worst looking ones end up in flight schools.
 
Cessna should have stuck with manual Johnson Bar operated flaps. Lighter weight, less maintenance, and more reliable than electric motors, switches, gears, and position indicators.
 
Tom-D said:
Not nearly as often when a pro-active approach to maintenance is taken.
proper inspections and using new parts rather than use make dispatch much better.
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I agree with that Chief. Things that should be done n 50 and 100 hour inspections for sure.
 
Stewartb said:
You never see any commercial businesses using 50 year old trucks for their business. If you did? Maintenance would be a priority since failure to dispatch is unacceptable. And if they did run old trucks? They’d have good paint jobs. They present an image to the public. Old airplanes usually look like old airplanes. The worst looking ones end up in flight schools.
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there a few that don't.
And I'm certain there are many more.
 

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Dan Thomas said:
Cessna flap failures are most often not the flap motor's fault. It's those microswitches at the flap actuator, and sometimes at the selector. At the actuator, oil and crud drip into the switches and foul them up. Mechanics over-oil the jackscrew. At the selector, they get out of rig, or they break. Like Tom says, proactive maintenance is key. It might cost a little more, but it saves a lot of downtime and the school's bottom line actually does better.
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most Cessna flap actuators are in the wing, where does the oil and crud come from?
Granted the switches are a POS the day they were new.
 
once way back when, there was a C-172 pilot that was complaining about a vibration, every A&P that looked at the 172 couldn't find a thing wrong, they checked every thing spent about $4K.
Finally some one asked when this vibration occurred, he told them when I taxi fast or during take off roll.a tire change later all is better.
Point ? it ain't all maintenance.
 
Tom-D said:
most Cessna flap actuators are in the wing, where does the oil and crud come from? Granted the switches are a POS the day they were new.
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Read it again. I said, "At the actuator, oil and crud drip into the switches and foul them up. Mechanics over-oil the jackscrew."

I have found numerous switches fouled by oil or grease. Too many mechanics like to spray LPS on that jackscrew, and it gets everywhere and drips into the switches. Or they grease the thing, thinking that since the old actuators used grease (up until 1967 or so) that grease goes on all of them. They don't read the manual. That screw needs a tiny bit of oil on a rag wiped onto it. That's all. It doesn't wreck the switches that way.

If the flaps won't come down, it's the down-limit switch not closing when the flaps came up last time. If they won't go up, it's the up-limit switch. Oil or grease in them will do that. It either makes them stick or it fouls the contacts.

They are genuine Microswitches and are good for a million cycles or something, but they need to be kept clean and dry and won't tolerate overtightening of the mounting hardware.
 
Maybe, but the demise of flight training really started with the nose wheel.

Stan Cooper said:
Cessna should have stuck with manual Johnson Bar operated flaps. Lighter weight, less maintenance, and more reliable than electric motors, switches, gears, and position indicators.
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They aren't that old I have done about 15 hours of training a 1946 T-craft the past two weeks, Nice airplane.

Brian
 
Tom-D said:
But that's not what you said here.
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Every time there's a thread about Cessna electric flap failures, I point out that oil-fouled microswitches are the most common cause.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've seen that, too.

The ever popular "Why would I buy a new [insert whatever]? I can repair this one for half the cost!"

Of course, after 2-3 times of that it's no longer half the cost.



Certainly wasn't implying it, and if they have good maintenance, that's very good to hear.

Like you said, they're getting old. Old airplanes can still be reliable and have good dispatchability, but short of a full on restoration (which nobody wants to do and it will cost almost as much as a new one), these things will happen.

And like you, I don't have much of a solution. A lot of these new planes I just don't see holding up like the old ones long term. Now, they may still have the solution of getting something more reliable on the line and training people reasonably enough for the short term. But with the costs being what they are, it's still a hard sell.
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If I had just too much money, I'd go order a couple of RV-12IST's and lease them back to a flight school, just to get some new equipment on the flight line. When I learned to fly, the Grummans I flew in were just a few years old.
 
But don’t the older girls know all the tricks and will do the things you really want???
 
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