There and back clearance

genna

genna

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Doing an "actual" IFR training flight to a nearby airport and coming right back(touch and go).

Is it better to file 2 separate IFR plans or a single IFR plan that includes the return?


Thanks
 
Get in the habit of separate flight plans...when ICAO kicks in October 15, you will be able to select only one destination airport and the computer will not accept one airport as both departure and destination.

AIM 6-2-6, although it is aimed at VFR operations, recommends separate plans.

Bob Gardner
 
Alright.

Now, about picking up the second clearance. I guess if the conditions at the departure(away) airport are VFR, i can do my touch and go and pick up clearance in the air. If not, then land and do the clearance on the ground? Is that the best course of action?

It's a Class D towered airport
 
If you are doing a touch and go and not a full stop personally I would file to the first airport then just let the approach controller know your intentions before arriving and that you are on a training flight. That way they will be expecting multiple approaches and/or destinations vs a full stop to where you filed. Did this all the time when IFR training and stayed on the same code and IFR plan but then again controllers in my area are very accommodating.

Sometimes plain ol English is the best communication on radio!

Full stop...yes, file two IFR plans.
 
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Controllers in my area also very accommodating.

My experience has been if you advise them of your plans at the destination airport of plan#1 and that you have a separate flight plan in the system for the next leg of the flight, it cues them up to provide the best assistance they can. Often I'd get the approach clearance and "switch to 1xx.xx (CTAF or Tower). Keep this beacon code and advise when back with me" as we get to Destination #1. Then when back with him, he would be ready to provide the clearance to Destination #2.
 
genna said:
Doing an "actual" IFR training flight to a nearby airport and coming right back(touch and go).
Is it better to file 2 separate IFR plans or a single IFR plan that includes the return?
Click to expand...
You can get away with one flight plan if the entire flight will remain within the same facility and you coordinate with the sector controller at the first approach location before starting the approach. However, if they aren't both in the same facility's airspace, the controller would have to enter a new flight plan for the return trip, and you can't count on them being able to do that, and then you're stuck having to call Flight Service and file a new plan before the controller can give you the next leg's clearance. That's why I always file one flight plan for each leg on IFR out-and-back or round robin training flights.
 
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genna said:
Now, about picking up the second clearance. I guess if the conditions at the departure(away) airport are VFR, i can do my touch and go and pick up clearance in the air. If not, then land and do the clearance on the ground? Is that the best course of action?

It's a Class D towered airport
Click to expand...
You can get the second clearance in the air if you coordinate with the approach controller before you start the approach. You can usually at your option get them to either give you the next clearance before starting the approach, or just get a missed approach instruction and pick up the second clearance on the missed (or from tower, if it's a tower-controlled airport). Otherwise, you are at the mercy of other traffic and workload issues if you just do a T&G and surprise the approach controller when you show up again, and then you're back to all the other problems of trying to take off VFR and pick up your IFR clearance in the air.
 
I file multiple airports for practice approaches as one flight plan all the time.

IE: Airport A -> IAF 1 -> Airport B -> IAF 2 -> Airport C - IAF 3 -> Airport A

I put "practice approaches" in the remarks.

Seems like they have always liked that as they knew what I was looking to do.
 
JasonM said:
I file multiple airports for practice approaches as one flight plan all the time.

IE: Airport A -> IAF 1 -> Airport B -> IAF 2 -> Airport C - IAF 3 -> Airport A

I put "practice approaches" in the remarks.

Seems like they have always liked that as they knew what I was looking to do.
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Works fine as long as you stay within one facility's airspace. Beyond that, you have no guarantees that you'll be able to get a clearance to the next airport after completing the previous approach. Yes, you may get lucky, but you may also get hosed.
 
genna said:
Alright.

Now, about picking up the second clearance. I guess if the conditions at the departure(away) airport are VFR, i can do my touch and go and pick up clearance in the air. If not, then land and do the clearance on the ground? Is that the best course of action?

It's a Class D towered airport
Click to expand...

On the way in to your destination, tell ATC "I have a plan on file from xxx to zzz." That's all they need to recover your clearance from the computer. In many cases, ATC will ask "What are your intentions after this approach?" Opens the door to the "I have a plan....." dialogue.

Bob Gardner
 
Ron Levy said:
You can get away with one flight plan if the entire flight will remain within the same facility and you coordinate with the sector controller at the first approach location before starting the approach. However, if they aren't both in the same facility's airspace, the controller would have to enter a new flight plan for the return trip, and you can't count on them being able to do that, and then you're stuck having to call Flight Service and file a new plan before the controller can give you the next leg's clearance. That's why I always file one flight plan for each leg on IFR out-and-back or round robin training flights.
Click to expand...

I don't have a handy citation, but as I recall John Collins has said that with the advent of ICAO, round-robins are a thing of the past.

Bob Gardner
 
Ron Levy said:
Works fine as long as you stay within one facility's airspace. Beyond that, you have no guarantees that you'll be able to get a clearance to the next airport after completing the previous approach. Yes, you may get lucky, but you may also get hosed.
Click to expand...

At the risk of repeating myself, the flight plan must still be acceptable to the Center computer (after October 15 2015) and the best information I have is that the ICAO format will have a problem with your solution. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong.

Bob Gardner
 
Except for x-country flights I've always just filed to my first point, executed the approaches I wanted for currency and then when asked how this approach will terminate I reply with something like "touch & go and I'd like to pick up a clearance back to KPLU". Never had a problem. For anything out of the area it is a flight plan for both directions with a quick ground stop to pick up the new clearance. This was how a controller friend suggested I do it so this is what I do.
 
bobmrg said:
I don't have a handy citation, but as I recall John Collins has said that with the advent of ICAO, round-robins are a thing of the past.
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Could be, but ATC should still be easily able to handle it the same way as a diversion if you're staying in the same facility's airspace. It only gets tougher when you cross facility lines.
 
bobmrg said:
At the risk of repeating myself, the flight plan must still be acceptable to the Center computer (after October 15 2015) and the best information I have is that the ICAO format will have a problem with your solution. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong.
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If that's true, how will they handle a missed approach/diversion to another airport? Make you hold at the MA holding point while you radio Flight Service to file another flight plan? Tell you that you cannot divert? I suspect it's not that rigid.
 
Ron Levy said:
If that's true, how will they handle a missed approach/diversion to another airport? Make you hold at the MA holding point while you radio Flight Service to file another flight plan? Tell you that you cannot divert? I suspect it's not that rigid.
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I think Bob's point concerns the limitations for filing a plan, which is a situation a pilot encounters before departure.

Your remark seems to center on the ability of ATC to change a plan while you are en route.

Two different things.
 
In this situation, both airports are at the same ATC facility and return destination would have been assigned as the alternate, so i could have simply diverted to alternate from MAP.

But I see that MAP makes perfect sence for picking up the next plan(if filed) or simply asking ATC to vector us back (it's a straight shot of about 11mi from MAP to IAF) if no second plan
 
NoHeat said:
I think Bob's point concerns the limitations for filing a plan, which is a situation a pilot encounters before departure.

Your remark seems to center on the ability of ATC to change a plan while you are en route.

Two different things.
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Not really, if you're trying to do a flight which involves approaches at several airports. If you can change the flight plan en route, you should be able to fly an approach, miss, and then get an IFR clearance back to where you started even via some other airport for an approach there on the way back. What I know from experience is that even under the current system, that gets a lot harder to do with only one flight plan if you're crossing facility boundaries, as the controller must then load another flight plan for you.

If I file just one for the round robin, the routing always gets hashed since the computer always seems to give me the best routing to my end destination, and loses all the points between where I planned to do approaches. That means if the intermediate airport is in the airspace of a facility through which that "best routing" does not go, it's a problem to arrange coordination with that third party facility.

For example, if I depart Central Jersey (47N) in NY TRACON's airspace with Chester County (MQS) in Philly's airspace as my final destination but planning to shoot an approach at Reading (RDG) on the way, I get a route that goes straight from NY TRACON's airspace southwest to their border with Philly even though I filed a route through Allentown to Reading to Chester County. If I want to do an approach at RDG in Reading TRACON airspace to the west (with Allentown TRACON between NY and Reading), Allentown and Reading aren't in the loop, and then either ATC has to enter a new flight plan manually (which the controller for that sector of NY TRACON is usually too busy to do) or I have to airfile more flight plans with FSS.

That's why when I'm doing an IFR round robin that goes anywhere outside the departure airport's ATC facility, I file one flight plan for each leg. OTOH, controllers seem to have no trouble at all doing this if you keep it all inside their facility boundaries, and I can't imagine how transitioning to ICAO flight plans would change that part.
 
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genna said:
But I see that MAP makes perfect sence for picking up the next plan(if filed) or simply asking ATC to vector us back (it's a straight shot of about 11mi from MAP to IAF) if no second plan
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It's only 18nm straight line from Trenton (TTN) to Central Jersey (47N), but TTN is in Philly's airspace and 47N is in New York's. Miss at TTN without another flight plan on file from TTN to 47N, and Philly's going to have to keep you inside their airspace (which ends just a couple of miles north of TTN) while they load it up and coordinate with NY.

Of course, if my trainee can use some holding entry and wind correction practice, that works just fine for me as an instructor, because "direct Yardley, hold as published, maintain [1000 above the published MA holding altitude], expect further clearance in 10 minutes" is an easy solution for the controller.:wink2:

OTOH, if you pre-file another flight plan from TTN to 47N and let the controller know about your plan before you start the approach at TTN, it all works slicker'n greased owl snot.
 
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genna said:
In this situation, both airports are at the same ATC facility and return destination would have been assigned as the alternate, so i could have simply diverted to alternate from MAP.

But I see that MAP makes perfect sence for picking up the next plan(if filed) or simply asking ATC to vector us back (it's a straight shot of about 11mi from MAP to IAF) if no second plan
Click to expand...

Yup, just coordinate with ATC...no big deal. It does help them if you already have a plan on file.
 
Ron Levy said:
If that's true, how will they handle a missed approach/diversion to another airport? Make you hold at the MA holding point while you radio Flight Service to file another flight plan? Tell you that you cannot divert? I suspect it's not that rigid.
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Irrelevant. The acceptance of the flight plan by the computer simply opens the door to the system...it places no handcuffs on a controller's actions.

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
Irrelevant. The acceptance of the flight plan by the computer simply opens the door to the system...it places no handcuffs on a controller's actions.
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Exactly my point. What handcuffs controllers is the workload necessary to generate a new strip if you filed A to B and then try to get a clearance from B to somewhere else outside B's airspace. OTOH, as it was explained to me by several controllers, there's no need for a new strip if you stay in B's airspace even if you fly an approach to B and then go to another airport within B's airspace, so there's no added workload for them.
 
file your departure airport as your destination with the desired route or airports you want to do approaches. in the remarks explain "lcl ifr flight, training, round robin, or something like that".
 
cirrusmx said:
file your departure airport as your destination with the desired route or airports you want to do approaches. in the remarks explain "lcl ifr flight, training, round robin, or something like that".
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As I explained above, if any of those points are outside the facility which covers your base airport, that can backfire and leave you really stuck between landing where you don't want to land and having to airfile another flight plan.
 
cirrusmx said:
file your departure airport as your destination with the desired route or airports you want to do approaches. in the remarks explain "lcl ifr flight, training, round robin, or something like that".
Click to expand...

What used to be Remarks is now Other Information (ICAO form), and how you enter information into that block is tightly controlled.

Time for you to read AIM 5-1-9. Also, go to www.1800wxbrief and view the videos from the link below the sign-in page...no need to register in order to see the videos. You have six months in which to become familiar with the ICAO form.

Bob Gardner
 
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