Theoretically possible to get PPL/SEL IFR and AMEL all at the same time?

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mbferg17

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mbferg17
Background info:

I'd be happy to hear the opinion of anyone willing to share about if this is feasible, but from a hypothetical stand point I'd like to check my understanding of the PPL, IFR, and AMEL reqs.

The PPL needs 40 hours minimum, if you get the PPL/SEL the emphasis is on single engine planes, but some percentage of those hours could be in a non-single engine aircraft such as a multi-engine airplane.

Therefore by the time you acquire the minimum 40 hours required for the PPL, you could have some mixture between single/multi like 30 hours single and 10 hours in multi.

At that time, if your CFI approved you'd also be able to get the MEL add-on. (You'd need a MEL ground course but not have to take the written exam again?)

Also, any hours accumulated during the PPL which were IFR would count towards the IFR certification as well.

So feasibly, you could do another 20-30 hours after the PPL & MEL and end up with the IFR.

Is this theoretically possible?
 
You could try, but throwing a new pilot into a complex multiengine aircraft is likely to chew up any cost or time savings you're envisioning.

There's no "time requirement" for the ME add on to a private anyhow. You need to fly enough to acquire the aeronautical knowledge. Learning the things you need for the multi is chews up all that time and is incompatible with the instruction needed to get your initial private.

So, your statement: "So feasibly, you could do another 20-30 hours after the PPL & MEL and end up with the IFR." but you're going to have a lot of hours (way more than 40) before the private.

It actually, didn't used to be possible at all as you needed 50 XC hours after the private. This went away a while back. But even so, IFR is going to be daunting to a pilot who isn't already well adept at flying the particular airplane and navigating under the VFR procedures (which is why the 50 hour xc requirement is there).
 
Yes, theoretically possible to do the combined private pilot/instrument check ride followed by private pilot MEL checkride in one day.
To schedule such an event may or may not attract the attention of an idle Friendly Aviation Administration inspector to come out and observe such a miracle checkride.



Extra helpings of scrutiny,
Nauga, probably
 
Theoretically, it could be done. Practically it would be a challenge, but with enough time and money many things in aviation are possible.
 
I don’t think this would necessarily make a good pilot, skills are learned over time, not by optimizing a checkride. In my opinion, the benchmark to get your ratings is lower than what skills you should have to be a safe and knowledgeable pilot. It’s with experience that this improves, provided you expose yourself to those experiences.
 
mandm said:
I don’t think this would necessarily make a good pilot, skills are learned over time, not by optimizing a checkride. In my opinion, the benchmark to get your ratings is lower than what skills you should have to be a safe and knowledgeable pilot. It’s with experience that this improves, provided you expose yourself to those experiences.
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But if you expose yourself to those experiences after certification, it still counts.
1695147548378.jpeg
 
you could do it, and it would be even less than what you posted above as MEL as an add on doesnt require any written or hours. You just have to be at the minimum standards to pass the checkride. Which could be 3 hours (rare) or 10-15 (usually the case).

The only method I see this as anything remotely what you want to do is if you were done with everything on PPL, IR and was just waiting on a checkride for an interminably long period of time and just decided to do the multi-engine part for 10 hours to knock it out. As that doesnt have any solo requirements if you are doing it as an add-on.
 
challenge....not for newbie...not makings of a good pilot.... etc...
but
I'm thinking of a couple scenarios.
1) a military pilot with tons of time in C-12's or something like that
2) a kid, who has grown up with a CFII parent flying regularly since they were tall enough to reach the rudder pedals.

I just seem to remember back in my day lots of requirements for "cross country or other things in general (can't remember specifics), done "after" PPL....
 
Brad W said:
challenge....not for newbie...not makings of a good pilot.... etc...
but
I'm thinking of a couple scenarios.
1) a military pilot with tons of time in C-12's or something like that
2) a kid, who has grown up with a CFII parent flying regularly since they were tall enough to reach the rudder pedals.

I just seem to remember back in my day lots of requirements for "cross country or other things in general (can't remember specifics), done "after" PPL....
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1) is going to have a military equivalency, pretty much a paperwork exercise for a Commeripcial Instrument, if I understand correctly.
 
mbferg17 said:
Background info:

I'd be happy to hear the opinion of anyone willing to share about if this is feasible, but from a hypothetical stand point I'd like to check my understanding of the PPL, IFR, and AMEL reqs.

The PPL needs 40 hours minimum, if you get the PPL/SEL the emphasis is on single engine planes, but some percentage of those hours could be in a non-single engine aircraft such as a multi-engine airplane.

Therefore by the time you acquire the minimum 40 hours required for the PPL, you could have some mixture between single/multi like 30 hours single and 10 hours in multi.

At that time, if your CFI approved you'd also be able to get the MEL add-on. (You'd need a MEL ground course but not have to take the written exam again?)

Also, any hours accumulated during the PPL which were IFR would count towards the IFR certification as well.

So feasibly, you could do another 20-30 hours after the PPL & MEL and end up with the IFR.

Is this theoretically possible?
Click to expand...

Under Part 61, the Private Pilot certificate with ASEL rating, the instrument rating, and the private pilot AMEL add-on rating are three separate practical test events, end of story.

Under Part 141, appendix M ("Combined Private Pilot Certification and Instrument Rating Course") it may be possible to combine the first two, but I have zero personal experience with this path. A minimum of 70 hours of flight training is required.

The Part 61 example is the one which is of interest, I assume, due to the ability to spread some flight training hours between different classes of airplanes. It is theoretically (or, mathematically) possible to take two or three practical tests in one day, were a willing evaluator identified for this. The odds of "saving time" and earning a private pilot certificate, an instrument rating and an AMEL add-on by applying the non-category/class specific requirements to the multi-engine aircraft? Pretty much zero.

This would be a waste of time and probably take longer, cost more, and result in a less-well rounded pilot than by going the normal route. A fun thought exercise, but worthless in practice - just my opinion.
 
mbferg17 said:
Background info:

I'd be happy to hear the opinion of anyone willing to share about if this is feasible, but from a hypothetical stand point I'd like to check my understanding of the PPL, IFR, and AMEL reqs.

The PPL needs 40 hours minimum, if you get the PPL/SEL the emphasis is on single engine planes, but some percentage of those hours could be in a non-single engine aircraft such as a multi-engine airplane.

Therefore by the time you acquire the minimum 40 hours required for the PPL, you could have some mixture between single/multi like 30 hours single and 10 hours in multi.

At that time, if your CFI approved you'd also be able to get the MEL add-on. (You'd need a MEL ground course but not have to take the written exam again?)

Also, any hours accumulated during the PPL which were IFR would count towards the IFR certification as well.

So feasibly, you could do another 20-30 hours after the PPL & MEL and end up with the IFR.

Is this theoretically possible?
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No, it's not really possible. In today's part 61 world, you'll end up with 60-70 hours before your PPL ride. With no experience flying, your 10 hours of multi are wasted since you haven't learned to fly a complex airplane, so you'll be so far behind the airplane you'll never be ready for the AMEL check ride anyhow. There is no written for the AMEL. You need to fly really well to get the IR, which is the hardest rating of all to get, and almost as hard to keep. It's the only one that expires for example.

So as a regulatory/math problem, maybe (with many more hours than cited), but in order to become a pilot that intends to exercise those privileges, nope.
 
Ryan F. said:
Under Part 61, the Private Pilot certificate with ASEL rating, the instrument rating, and the private pilot AMEL add-on rating are three separate practical test events, end of story.
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NOT end of story…
61.65 allows for instrument rating concurrent with private pilot practical test.


§ 61.65 Instrument rating requirements.
(a) General. A person who applies for an instrument rating must:

(1) Hold at least a current private pilot certificate, or be concurrently applying for a private pilot certificate, with an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift rating appropriate to the instrument rating sought



“I should’ve concurred, why didn’t I concur?”
Doctor Harris, probably
 
Ryan F. said:
Under Part 61, the Private Pilot certificate with ASEL rating, the instrument rating, and the private pilot AMEL add-on rating are three separate practical test events, end of story.

Under Part 141, appendix M ("Combined Private Pilot Certification and Instrument Rating Course") it may be possible to combine the first two, but I have zero personal experience with this path. A minimum of 70 hours of flight training is required.

The Part 61 example is the one which is of interest, I assume, due to the ability to spread some flight training hours between different classes of airplanes. It is theoretically (or, mathematically) possible to take two or three practical tests in one day, were a willing evaluator identified for this. The odds of "saving time" and earning a private pilot certificate, an instrument rating and an AMEL add-on by applying the non-category/class specific requirements to the multi-engine aircraft? Pretty much zero.

This would be a waste of time and probably take longer, cost more, and result in a less-well rounded pilot than by going the normal route. A fun thought exercise, but worthless in practice - just my opinion.
Click to expand...
Is this practically possible? I thought DPE had to provide some notification prior to checkrides. Can he do that if a candidate isn't yet eligible? Or maybe I'm misremembering.
 
NorthEast Ohio said:
NOT end of story…
Click to expand...

Yes, still end of story. ;)

Despite the constructive language in 14 CFR Part 61, an applicant is only eligible to apply for a combined private pilot/instrument rating if they pass a Combined Private Pilot Certification & Instrument Rating Course which is only described under Appendix M of 14 CFR Part 141. (The other clue is the lack of specified aeronautical experience requirements for this combined testing event under Part 61.)

Additionally, designee guidance demonstrates that this certification event is comprised of two practical tests (under one 8710-1 paper application, as the process is not supported by IACRA), both of which must result in a satisfactory outcome in order to be awarded both the private pilot certificate and the instrument rating. So, even under Part 141 this would require two practical tests. This is also the guidance which states an applicant must complete the aforementioned course to gain eligibility.

Regards,
 
Possible? Yes. Practical? No.

First issue is that very few people are ready for the PPL check ride at 40 hours, even doing it all in SE. Average is up around 65 - 70 hours last time I checked. Add in 10 -15 hours of multi, and you push that up.

Yes, the instrument flying you do for your private counts towards your IR, but it is not that much and every one gets that. So you would add all the instrument time of the IR to the numbers above.
 
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