The why did they do that, thread, Cirrus edition

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
16,541
Location
Norfolk, VA
Display Name
Display name:
Fearless Tower
Having recently joined the ranks of Cirrus pilots, there are a couple things that left me scratching my head:

Spring loaded ailerons: What is up with that? Any particular reason? As a tailwheel guy who has been conditioned to apply control inputs when taxiing in the wind, I found this really freaking annoying. Kind of like the airplane is fighting me. Also creates an odd feel hand flying.

Prop anti-ice: ok, Cirrus, the 1930s called and they want their prop anti-ice back. I mean seriously: this is the 21st Century! Why are they producing airplanes from the factory with fluid based prop anti-ice????

And speaking of anti-ice, why is there no fluid level gauge?

Trim: why no means of manually adjusting trim??? How hard is it to put a manual trim wheel or crank in the airplane?

Anyway, those were the first oddities that jumped out at me. I may come up with more as I fly it.
 
Well, he did say he got paid to compromise his values ;)
 
How does the trim mechanism in the Cirrus actually work? Is it a spring tensioning servo? I’m sure that there is some reason why there is no manual trim. But one thing is certain: They didn’t just copy what everyone else was doing. Right or wrong, they made their own decisions on a number of things, like the free castering nose wheel and the spring-centered control surfaces.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Having recently joined the ranks of Cirrus pilots, there are a couple things that left me scratching my head:

Spring loaded ailerons: What is up with that? Any particular reason? As a tailwheel guy who has been conditioned to apply control inputs when taxiing in the wind, I found this really freaking annoying. Kind of like the airplane is fighting me. Also creates an odd feel hand flying.

Prop anti-ice: ok, Cirrus, the 1930s called and they want their prop anti-ice back. I mean seriously: this is the 21st Century! Why are they producing airplanes from the factory with fluid based prop anti-ice????

And speaking of anti-ice, why is there no fluid level gauge?

Trim: why no means of manually adjusting trim??? How hard is it to put a manual trim wheel or crank in the airplane?

Anyway, those were the first oddities that jumped out at me. I may come up with more as I fly it.
Click to expand...

I am by no means an expert, but that doesn't stop anyone around here from answering stuff, so here I go. It's pretty hard to put trim wheels into an airplane from an engineering point of view, lots of extra stuff and complexity. As far as the Cirrus trim, I am almost checked out in an SR 20, and I have no trouble trimming the AC out for level flight. Unless it is seriously out of trim I never actuate the trim button for longer than a split second. I nudge it to balance, it might take two or three nudges, but it gets there pretty easily for me. If it is way out ( a lot of force to hold the nose or wings where I want) then I will use a longer trim button input until it is close, then I nudge. Works well for me. YMMV.
 
Manual trim requires cables or some other mechanical device. Electric only needs a wire. Mechanical trim is a $100,000 option I believe.
 
Really, a million dollar plane doesn't have nose wheel steering?
 
There are TKS fluid level gauges. Click the engine soft key on the MFD and you’ll see quantities for the left and right TKS tanks assuming you're flying with the Perspective avionics.
 
PaulS said:
I am by no means an expert, but that doesn't stop anyone around here from answering stuff, so here I go. It's pretty hard to put trim wheels into an airplane from an engineering point of view, lots of extra stuff and complexity. As far as the Cirrus trim, I am almost checked out in an SR 20, and I have no trouble trimming the AC out for level flight. Unless it is seriously out of trim I never actuate the trim button for longer than a split second. I nudge it to balance, it might take two or three nudges, but it gets there pretty easily for me. If it is way out ( a lot of force to hold the nose or wings where I want) then I will use a longer trim button input until it is close, then I nudge. Works well for me. YMMV.
Click to expand...
I have no problem using the electric trim and it works just fine. But I have experienced enough electric trim problems in other GA airplanes to believe that a manual backup is important. Not having any means of manually adjusting trim as a backup in the SR22 bothers me.

I guess the procedure for runaway trim is ‘pop the chute’

You sure as heck aren’t pulling the CB in an emergency. The Cirrus CB panel is a crap design.
 
Castering nosewheels work just fine. I had amphibs on my old Husky and they were castering. And contrary to most thinking, the plane turned fairly well with just the rudder while taxiing at normal speeds. You have to use the brakes to turn at lower wind than with steerable, but you definitely dont have to use the brakes to keep it centered on takeoff. You have plenty of rudder for steering with that much power to the prop.
 
Last edited:
iamtheari said:
How does the trim mechanism in the Cirrus actually work? Is it a spring tensioning servo? I’m sure that there is some reason why there is no manual trim. But one thing is certain: They didn’t just copy what everyone else was doing. Right or wrong, they made their own decisions on a number of things, like the free castering nose wheel and the spring-centered control surfaces.
Click to expand...

It was all a combination of cost-savings (that didn't bear out for the consumer) and a philosophy of simplification of systems in order to accommodate their target demographic. The removal of the prop control lever is the most iconic exemplification of this effort. The self-centering nature of flight controls via spring cartridges is another. The other large one is the fixed gear, and aggressive fairings that came at the expense of things normally taken for granted by the legacy fleet, like nominal brake cooling. Latter which is generally a non-issue in light aircraft, but became an issue for the Cirrus because they also doubled down on the selection of castering nosewheel vise pedal-controlled.

Paulie said:
Manual trim requires cables or some other mechanical device. Electric only needs a wire. Mechanical trim is a $100,000 option I believe.
Click to expand...

If true, holy smokes. This is the GA we want?
 
tsts4 said:
Well no, but you implied it though, at least at that price point.
Click to expand...
I implied nothing. The $100k comment was me being a smartass. I can't imagine spending this kind of money on a single unless there's a tax advantage that I couldn't take advantage of anyway considering my income.
 
Paulie said:
I implied nothing. The $100k comment was me being a smartass. I can't imagine spending this kind of money on a single unless there's a tax advantage that I couldn't take advantage of anyway considering my income.
Click to expand...

Oh, ok. Being a smartass isn't always apparent on a post.
 
You flying for Imagine Air?
 
iamtheari said:
...I’m sure that there is some reason why there is no manual trim. But one thing is certain: They didn’t just copy what everyone else was doing. Right or wrong, they made their own decisions on a number of things, like the free castering nose wheel and the spring-centered control surfaces.
Click to expand...

Right or wrong EVERY airplane ever designed involved "the making of their own decisions" by those designing and engineering it. Cirrus is not the first GA airplane with a free castoring nosewheel (ask SixPapaCharlie) and the use of springs or rubber bands in the flight control system is hardly revolutionary (ask any Bonanza owner).

Every engineering exercise is one of trade-offs and choices. There's no such thing as a "perfect" GA airplane, not even a Cirrus. Only what's "perfect" for what you want, or want to do. ;)
 
Last edited:
PaulS said:
It's pretty hard to put trim wheels into an airplane from an engineering point of view, lots of extra stuff and complexity...
Click to expand...

:confused: o_O

Seriously?

I can't recall any airplane I've ever flown that didn't have at a minimum an elevator trim wheel or crank. Even the lowly Cessna 150 I learned to fly in had one. Can't be that hard. LOL.
 
GRG55 said:
Right or wrong EVERY airplane ever designed involved "the making of their own decisions" by those designing and engineering it. Cirrus is not the first GA airplane with a free castoring nosewheel (ask SixPapaCharlie) and the use of springs or rubber bands in the flight control system is hardly revolutionary (ask any Bonanza owner).

Every engineering exercise is one of trade-offs and choices. There's no such thing as a "perfect" GA airplane, not even a Cirrus. Only what's "perfect" for what you want, or want to do. ;)
Click to expand...

If a free-castoring nosewheel is good enough for a B-25 Mitchell, it's good enough for a Cirrus (or Vans RV).

Electric trim is kinda nice...declutters the cockpit a little, and I like just working a switch on the stick with my thumb, without having to move my hand. Some guys worry about a run-away trim situation, but on my plane (RV-9A), it's not very difficult to overpower it at the extremes (did this as part of my Phase 1 test regime). Some guys fit a pull-able circuit breaker here, but failures are very rare and if the runaway scenario happens, I'll just deal with it.
 
Forget trim, does the thing have drink, er, uh, Zima holders?
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
If a free-castoring nosewheel is good enough for a B-25 Mitchell, it's good enough for a Cirrus (or Vans RV).
Click to expand...
FWIW, the Cirrus is MUCH easier to taxi than the B-25. Aside from maybe slightly increased brake wear, it really is a non-issue. Steers as well as a Cessna 172.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Having recently joined the ranks of Cirrus pilots, there are a couple things that left me scratching my head:

Spring loaded ailerons: What is up with that? Any particular reason? As a tailwheel guy who has been conditioned to apply control inputs when taxiing in the wind, I found this really freaking annoying. Kind of like the airplane is fighting me. Also creates an odd feel hand flying.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. I was told this was done because without it, people try to hold the handle vertical which would put the plane in a left roll. I wish they had used a detent rather than spring loading. You wouldn't have to fight it. I do really like the single handle off to the side though.

[/QUOTE]
Trim: why no means of manually adjusting trim??? How hard is it to put a manual trim wheel or crank in the airplane?
[/QUOTE]

I agree here too. A wheel or crank (ala Comanche), would be much preferred. Most electric trim doesn't allow for fine / precise enough adjustment IMHO. You can I've found, adjust the voltage going to the servos in the installation and setup menu. I did it on my plane and it helped but didn't completely solve the problem.

My pet peeves... the wings tend to pick up a lot of cloud residue and there are just too many things you have to touch during preflight. ;-)
 
GRG55 said:
I can't recall any airplane I've ever flown that didn't have at a minimum an elevator trim wheel or crank. Even the lowly Cessna 150 I learned to fly in had one. Can't be that hard. LOL.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it can be. I tried a number of times to come up with a manual trim wheel for my plane (because, you know, every plane I ever flew had one). Eventually gave up. I couldn't figure out how to do it without a lot of extra work, weight and money.
 
Here’s another one... why are the flaps not on the “Emergency bus”. They draw no power unless used so why not let the pilot make the call as to if power is drawn on final to deploy flaps. One can land a Cirrus without flaps (I’ve practiced it in training) but it ain’t pretty. Don’t understand why engineers took the flaps off that bus.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Having recently joined the ranks of Cirrus pilots, there are a couple things that left me scratching my head:

Spring loaded ailerons: What is up with that? Any particular reason? As a tailwheel guy who has been conditioned to apply control inputs when taxiing in the wind, I found this really freaking annoying. Kind of like the airplane is fighting me. Also creates an odd feel hand flying.

Prop anti-ice: ok, Cirrus, the 1930s called and they want their prop anti-ice back. I mean seriously: this is the 21st Century! Why are they producing airplanes from the factory with fluid based prop anti-ice????

And speaking of anti-ice, why is there no fluid level gauge?

Trim: why no means of manually adjusting trim??? How hard is it to put a manual trim wheel or crank in the airplane?

Anyway, those were the first oddities that jumped out at me. I may come up with more as I fly it.
Click to expand...
Spring loaded ailerons?? That does seem like it would be annoying. Tell me there is aileron trim.
 
I probably have about 700 hours in early Cirrus’s.

I came from a Grumman Tiger. While the Cirrus controls were admittedly heavier, I never found the spring loading at all problematic - or even worth mentioning.

Obviously a bigger deal for others. And never the twain shall meet.
 
EminiTrader said:
Yes it has aileron trim.
I've flown many different aircraft and with about 1000 in a SR22- I love flying them. Never quite understood all the hate.
Click to expand...
Hate is a bit strong. I'm certainly no hater. I neither love nor hate the airplane. Having flown one, I can see why alot of folks love them. I can see why some people get themselves into trouble. I did NOT see the justification in high purchase price.

Like any airplane, there are a few things that left me scratching my head as to why? No different than the first time I got in a Bonanza and wondered who on earth thought the yoke bar design was a good idea.
 
FastEddieB said:
I never found the spring loading at all problematic - or even worth mentioning.
Click to expand...
I don't know I'd call it 'problematic'. More like slightly annoying.

The system works. But WHY do that? I saw the theory about the need to center the ailerons with the angled stick, but it just struck me as a feature designed for lazy pilots who want to taxi with their hands in their laps.

My overall feeling about the airplane as I mentioned in another thread as to why I would never want to own one is that in the Cirrus, I feel like an airplane driver, not an aviator. It's a job. Not something that brings me joy like other airplanes. But alot of that is just my personality.
 
Last edited:
Fearless Tower said:
Hate is a bit strong. I'm certainly no hater. I neither love nor hate the airplane. Having flown one, I can see why alot of folks love them. I can see why some people get themselves into trouble. I did NOT see the justification in high purchase price.

Like any airplane, there are a few things that left me scratching my head as to why? No different than the first time I got in a Bonanza and wondered who on earth thought the yoke bar design was a good idea.
Click to expand...
I honestly was not pointing out you as the hater. My apologies if it came off that way. But there is undoubtedly a huge dislike for Cirrus around here. Again, I don't care either way - I just don't understand why it exists. I bought 2 SR22's both for under 200K. Flew 700 hours on them and sold them for what I paid. I now rent brand new ones from a close friend at a pretty good price (hence selling). Either way just wondering.
 
EminiTrader said:
I honestly was not pointing out you as the hater. My apologies if it came off that way. But there is undoubtedly a huge dislike for Cirrus around here. Again, I don't care either way - I just don't understand why it exists. I bought 2 SR22's both for under 200K. Flew 700 hours on them and sold them for what I paid. I now rent brand new ones from a close friend at a pretty good price (hence selling). Either way just wondering.
Click to expand...
I agree. There is alot of hate and I have always suspected that the vast majority of haters have never actually flown the airplane.

I think part of the hate is related to Cirrus fans who perhaps overly vocalized their love for the airplanes combined with alot of stupid avoidable accidents which made it popular to bash the airplane.

It isn't a bad airplane at all. Just different.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I agree. There is alot of hate and I have always suspected that the vast majority of haters have never actually flown the airplane.

It isn't a bad airplane at all. Just different.
Click to expand...
It's different for sure :) I guess it comes down to the mission as well. We travel a lot. We take it from Florida to Indiana, Ohio, and NY all the time so family comfort is a huge thing. If I were just flying around doing the ole hamburger run then the SR22 is not the right plane. If fairness - if I could spend 800K on a plane (and I can't) I would buy a used jet prop :) but that's just me.
 
donjohnston said:
Yeah, it can be. I tried a number of times to come up with a manual trim wheel for my plane (because, you know, every plane I ever flew had one). Eventually gave up. I couldn't figure out how to do it without a lot of extra work, weight and money.
Click to expand...

It's difficult to appreciate the amount of work that goes into designing and building even the simplest thing, never mind something as complicated mechanically as a trim wheel for an elevator and one for ailerons. Plus the cost and weight penalty for something that if it runs away will just make you uncomfortable for the amount of time it will take you to land.
 
I
EminiTrader said:
Yes it has aileron trim.

i guess I don't get it. I've flown many different aircraft and with about 1000 in a SR22- I love flying them. Never quite understood all the hate.
Click to expand...
Is the trim with tabs? Or is it through tension on the springs?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top