the road to my (your?) own LearJet

MachFly said:
You have to understand, most people here fly light singles and aren't really big fans of people who just want a jet.
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You're absolutely right..but its really just pure bigotry for those people to think that flying around an airplane is somehow modest when there are plenty of countries where people don't even have food to eat. Or families in the US that cant afford to pay the rent. Have some perspective people. Aviation is an outrageous extravagance no matter what the aircraft.

I am hoping I can figure out a way to make the jet less of an outrage by providing free or very discounted travel to people who need it..not sure if there really is a category like that though.
 
MachFly said:
I doubt anyone at a local flight school would be able to tell him anything about buying and training for flying a jet.
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Yeah..it looks that way. I did some phone calls and a couple hours research in socal and its really difficult to find info..
 
JGalt said:
You're absolutely right..but its really just pure bigotry for those people to think that flying around an airplane is somehow modest
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Not really...this is just a site full of people set in their ways and will put down anyone that does not agree with their views...



...oh, wait....
 
JGalt said:
Whats the least expensive way to go from absolutely no pilot training to private jet pilot?
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If you are young enough:

1. Invest the $600k in high risk small caps.
2. Join a branch of the military as an aviator. Come out in six years with lots of hours and certificates.
3. Take your investment earnings, buy a jet, and go fly.
 
You know its kind of sad..I was expecting alot of enthusiasm about these old jets from the 60's and early 70's with their zillion gauges and retro charm. Kind of like just barely being able to touch hardware designed in the space-race era instead of a bunch of television screens.
 
JGalt said:
I am hoping I can figure out a way to make the jet less of an outrage by providing free or very discounted travel to people who need it..not sure if there really is a category like that though.
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Your other option is to be a part owner...a lot of people do that.


Talk to some charter companies that operate planes of the type you're looking for. Approach them as an investor (regardless of your actual plans), say that you'd be willing them let me use the plane (that may really be a good idea for you too). They will be more than happy to help you, but they may want to see something that says your serious.
 
Shawn said:
Not really...this is just a site full of people set in their ways and will put down anyone that does not agree with their views...



...oh, wait....
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hahahah
 
I guess the TV's make it into a 40 year old jet eventually...

am I the only one getting turned on by this????

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JGalt said:
You're absolutely right..but its really just pure bigotry for those people to think that flying around an airplane is somehow modest when there are plenty of countries where people don't even have food to eat. Or families in the US that cant afford to pay the rent. Have some perspective people. Aviation is an outrageous extravagance no matter what the aircraft.

I am hoping I can figure out a way to make the jet less of an outrage by providing free or very discounted travel to people who need it..not sure if there really is a category like that though.
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(Sound of can of worms being opened). There are very specific rules about this...they can be grouped under Air Taxi rules, or Part 135. These rules are intended to protect those entities that provide such a service for a price. Too far down the road for you to worry about it now.

Bob Gardner
 
JGalt said:
Hooray the first answer that means anything!

Do I still need the commercial license if I'm just flying myself + copilot?

Can I technically fly with just the private license under VFR?

Where does the 25k go and does that include fuel in my jet? Or is that all prop-training/someone elses plane?

Who are you paying insurance to and what are the minimum requirements?

I realize now I'm starting to ask questions that I should just look up myself..but its always nice to hear a good explanation..
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You wouldn't need commercial but you would need your instrument since those engines are made to operate in the flight levels where VFR is not allowed.
 
MachFly said:
Your other option is to be a part owner...a lot of people do that.


Talk to some charter companies that operate planes of the type you're looking for. Approach them as an investor (regardless of your actual plans), say that you'd be willing them let me use the plane (that may really be a good idea for you too). They will be more than happy to help you, but they may want to see something that says your serious.
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Yes yes!! I was hoping the conversation would start going into these areas..

besides the "brute force" of me completely buying the plane myself and not making a dime using it....part owner might work..or full owner/leasing/renting it to charter companies (is that possible)

And seriously, what about becoming a jet mechanic? Thats a vocational school thing right? 2-4 years? Isn't that a serious consideration if it means saving 100's of $k by doing your own work? Plus its gotta be really interesting.
 
...wait....are you looking to be a drug runner?

If so, flying a REALLY low altitudes on a west to east route into uncontrolled fields are the best way to avoid detection by DOJ and CBP!
 
Shawn said:
...wait....are you looking to be a drug runner?

If so, flying a REALLY low altitudes on a west to east route into uncontrolled fields are the best way to avoid detection by DOJ and CBP!
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SHHHH!!
 
JGalt said:
What are you basing this on? 23's and 24's sell for $75k to $300k. Upgrade/fix add $300k. Where is the extra 4 million going?
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I just reviewed the invoice for the Citation engine overhauls. They averaged $732K per engine. These are EXTREMELY expensive toys.
 
As mentioned, the easy part is buying it. Just to give some perspective - a Lear 25 burns around 250-300gal/hr. That's a fuel cost of $1350-1500/hr. You haven't set aside anything yet for maintenance, hiring a co-pilot, FBO fees or insurance. You're easily going to spend $2500/hr all in. Easily. All of a sudden that $600K you had saved up would last 240hrs of flying, then it's gone. That's a year of flying. So you can see why they're going cheap. They'll take you to the cleaners financially.

More achievable on that budget is a turboprop. They'll run for about $1000/hr and you can fly them single pilot. Not as fast, but fast enough for most trips.
 
"In 2013, the FAA modified 14 CFR part 91 rules to prohibit the operation of jets weighing 75,000 pounds or less that are not stage 3 noise compliant after December 31, 2015. The Learjet 24 is listed explicitly in Federal Register 78 FR 39576. Any Learjet 24s that have not been modified by installing Stage 3 noise compliant engines or have not had "hushkits" installed for non-compliant engines will not be permitted to fly in the contiguous 48 states after December 31, 2015. 14 CFR §91.883 Special flight authorizations for jet airplanes weighing 75,000 pounds or less - lists special flight authorizations that may be granted for operation after December 31, 2015."

First one to find price for hush kit wins
 
stratobee said:
As mentioned, the easy part is buying it. Just to give some perspective - a Lear 25 burns around 250-300gal/hr. That's a fuel cost of $1350-1500/hr. You haven't set aside anything yet for maintenance, hiring a co-pilot, FBO fees or insurance. You're easily going to spend $2500/hr all in. Easily. All of a sudden that $600K you had saved up would last 240hrs of flying, then it's gone. That's a year of flying. So you can see why they're going cheap. They'll take you to the cleaners financially.

More achievable on that budget is a turboprop. They'll run for about $1000/hr and you can fly them single pilot. Not as fast, but fast enough for most trips.
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The reason I want to spend $600k is because I think there is a way to do it, which would be such a cool bargain for a jet. Beyond the initial buy-in I'm okay with the flying/maintenance costs if I can get 5 years out of it.
 
JGalt said:
I'd like to get my own LearJet and fly it. My preferred budget for this is $600k.

I am not a pilot, but I am very interested in flying my own jet and look forward to pilot training. I don't think I have to explain that on this forum right?

I am well aware that the budget of $600k puts me into late 60's to mid 70's used jets with likely maintenance/upgrade/inspection/overhaul costs in the $50k to $300k range. So that, plus what appears to be a $75k to $500k market value of these older jets puts me at my $600k budget.

I'm trying to figure out an overall, multi-year strategy to make this happen, some questions would be:

- How can I efficiently research the additional costs I will need to consider when jet shopping? Is there a jet-refurbisher out there who takes these 40 year old jets and does the whole whiz-bang to them? That seems like someone who would know.

- Whats the least expensive way to go from absolutely no pilot training to private jet pilot?

- What amount of training would be considered conservatively "safe" and as ready as could be for emergencies? I.e., not the minimum.

- What about also training to become a jet mechanic so I can do the maintenance on my jet myself? How long does that take and how much does it cost?

- What about somehow paying for the jet and my training by becoming a commercial jet pilot and flying my jet for hire? Does the math work out on that?

- Is a major cost of training going to be paying for the thousands of hours of fuel in my jet? (assuming its more expensive than the prop-plane part of the training)

Thanks for any help! I'm very well aware this is an expensive and complex process, but that hasn't stopped any of you has it? :wink2:
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Lear is a poor choice, your refurb and upgrade cost analysis is off by at least one zero on a $600k aircraft. The Lears of that vintage are noisy and the $600k one probably isn't upgraded with RVSM so you'll run into costs there. They are also all two pilot planes, which for you wouldn't be a bad thing since you'll need a pro with you for a good while just for insurability. Pick one with a CFII and pay them $45k a year to manage the plane and fly with you.

If you really want a jet to fly around in and actually intend on doing some miles in it, getting something like the Eclipse Jet will serve you much better and operational savings will quickly overcome the extra initial capital buy in.
 
JGalt said:
I am hoping I can figure out a way to make the jet less of an outrage by providing free or very discounted travel to people who need it..not sure if there really is a category like that though.
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Yes, it called a charter operation and the Feds keep a much tighter rein on it than just personal flying without charging passengers any money.

I don't think there's any real bigotry against jets here, it's just that most of us fly smaller planes of one size or another and jets for the most part are in a whole different league.

Some of us fly jets for a living here, including myself and any old corporate jet for sale for 75k is in my opinion a POS. This is aviation here, a highly regulated activity. The nostalgia of flying an older Learjet is not the same as driving an old Ferrari, which anyone with a big checkbook can do.
It takes training and experience for that kind of plane, and none of that comes cheap and easy.

Oh, and I would think that most of the old straight turbojets like the early Lears are banned because of noise from many if not all Socal airports.

My advice, a second yacht for you would be cheaper and safer for you and your friends.
 
MachFly said:
I doubt anyone at a local flight school would be able to tell him anything about buying and training for flying a jet.
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No, but an introductory flight lesson would be a realistic start.
 
JGalt said:
besides the "brute force" of me completely buying the plane myself and not making a dime using it....part owner might work..or full owner/leasing/renting it to charter companies (is that possible)
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Yes that is possible and a lot of people do that.
The company I work for has half it's fleet owned by various other people.
 
Luigi said:
No, but an introductory flight lesson would be a realistic start.
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He doesn't strike me as the type of person who is looking to get into aviation purely for the "joy of flight." I bet you he wants the ability to get from point A to point B as fast as reasonably possible while being in a comfortable cabin.
 
A lot of factors lead me to believe you are either under the age of 15 or are drug money rich and wipe your *** with $100 bills.

  • Your original post being kind of outrageous and your first post on the forum
  • The fact you stated in one post that you wanted to use it to provide free transportation to friends and complained about poverty in the world. Then in another post you said you would want to make money off of it.
  • Someone mentions the Cirrus jet and you reply "$1 million :/", yet you say a $600k jet, an S-class mercedes and a house in Cali cost twice that much.(which you implied that you had)
  • You say you have a lot of expensive toys yet you basically had no clue what insurance was.

I really can't tell what your angle is. I highly doubt anyone with money would buy an old learjet because of its nostalgia. Unless you are Clay Lacy and you were really close to Bill Lear...

If you are dead serious and have that kind of money to throw around...Give me a shout. I'll train you. I'll find you the jet! Heck, I'll be anything you want me to be...
 
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I think that you should go buy it (Lear 25) and find out. Get the plane and a hanger. Call up Lear and tell them that you have $500K and want to have them get you flying. There are plenty of private pilots that fly their own jet. I know of two at my Podunk Class D airport. Although, one has the national francize for $hell Aviation fuels. But still why not. I knew a guy that owned 2 427 AC Cobras, lived in a single wide, but it is what he wanted and he found a way. I think that you will likely end up in a smoking hole but maybe not. Maybe a L39 Dolphin would work. About $100K and $500K would leave plenty for gas and $15k annuals. Go for it.
 
MachFly said:
He doesn't strike me as the type of person who is looking to get into aviation purely for the "joy of flight." I bet you he wants the ability to get from point A to point B as fast as reasonably possible while being in a comfortable cabin.
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It sounds like he has absolutely no flight experience, a flight lesson might dissuade or invigorate. Sounds like a troll.
 
JGalt said:
Looks like a hit a nerve. Some of you guys are real sensitive about this stuff huh? Lol. As if whatever plane you fly "makes sense" why a learjet somehow doesn't.
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PFleming.....is that you?????
 
Hey buddy listen, a major stumbling block for this whole charade is that you're going to need to pass an FAA Flight Physical. With the meds you're OBVIOUSLY taking you're never going to make it - so why don't you just move on to your next fantasy. I think there's a rocket-powered dragster forum out there too somewhere - that outa get your Adderall kicking in for you !
 
Art VanDelay said:
Hey buddy listen, a major stumbling block for this whole charade is that you're going to need to pass an FAA Flight Physical. With the meds you're OBVIOUSLY taking you're never going to make it - so why don't you just move on to your next fantasy. I think there's a rocket-powered dragster forum out there too somewhere - that outa get your Adderall kicking in for you !
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:rofl:
 
I started out with the exact same set of questions... and realized that it would take a lot of spare cash to go there.

Why a jet though? they are typically designed to make the passengers happy, not the pilot, and as others have pointed out, are insanely expensive to own/run for leisure purposes unless you really are filthy rich... which leads to: if I had that kind of money, I'd be signing up for fractional ownership or own one with a crew. Turbo-props are a far more sensible category. I'm really curious as to your reasoning.
 
A Citation Jet or similar CAN be found in tradeaplane.com. A Citation Jet (don't know about Lears) can be flown single pilot. Ratings up to Multi would cost $50,000 and training to fly the jet would be 10k a year. Figure 600k to buy it, and 100K a year to maintain it PLUS $2000 an hour to FLY it. 100 hours a year would be 300,000. There really is no good way to know what the cost of maintenance is and the above numbers aren't really all that accurate so it's plus minus quite a bit.

You could probably be in and out of it for a million and you would have owned and flown a JET!

There are less expensive options. An L-39 Albatross can be bought for 200k and flown for a lot less per hour. And it is a jet. It is a military trainer, 2 place jet. You could be in and out of it for a lot less. Maybe 500k.
 
Henning said:
Pick one with a CFII and pay them $45k a year to manage the plane and fly with you.
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I'll bet you won't find anyone qualified and willing for $45K. Especially when they see the whole picture! :eek:
 
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