THe other shoe...

[wsuffa]

<quote>
As a result, Bush administration officials are discussing the possibility that the restricted air space around Washington may have to be extended, said an administration official who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

"While there was no danger to potential strategic targets,'' the official said, yesterday's incident and the one in May caused concern that fighter jets might not have enough time to intercept potentially dangerous aircraft. The official said federal authorities have tried to balance the concerns of local private pilots with the need to secure Washington airspace, "but that's probably going to have to be reviewed."

</quote>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/29/AR2005062902957.html

 

[Frank Browne]

I don't know about anyone else here, but in my mind a King Air 350 is not a "small plane".

 

[Aztec Driver]

I don't know about anyone else here, but in my mind a King Air 350 is not a "small plane".

It is not an airliner, so, in the public's eyes and also the eyes of the politicians, it is a "small, untrained, rich boy's toy", and, therefore, needs to be restricted. As much as I hate the restrictions, and believe they are worthless, if we, as a collective body of pilots, cannot abide by them, it will get worse, not better. Anyone who believes that the government will eradicate the TFR's because they see that they are not working, is living in a fantasy world. If this continues, we will be lucky if they do not impose a mandatory IFR ticket and track every flight. At the very least, some of these TFR's may get a lot larger, to give the scrambled jets time to intercept the offender.

 

[ggroves]

<quote>
As a result, Bush administration officials are discussing the possibility that the restricted air space around Washington may have to be extended,
</quote>

Attention pilots @ Winchester, Martinsburg, Hagerstown, Frederick, Cambridge, Culpepper, Stafford, etc.........welcome to the ADIZ.......

Greg

 

[SJP]

Attention pilots @ Winchester, Martinsburg, Hagerstown, Frederick, Cambridge, Culpepper, Stafford, etc.........welcome to the ADIZ.......

Greg

You are spot on.

We can argue about the justification/validity/usefulness of the ADIZ until we are blue in the face, but the fact remains that it is there, and there are rules surrounding it's use. If pilots cannot follow those rules, then Washington is going to impose new rules/restrictions to force the issue - if nothing else if only to appear as doing something about the 'issue'.

 

[woodstock]

why not just make the whole %^&*( country one big ADIZ?

 

[Anthony]

why not just make the whole %^&*( country one big ADIZ?

Don't laugh. I'm sure that is being dicussed. If a pilot with the training and experience to fly a King Air can't stay out of the damn FRZ, then we are doomed. This is not like the old guy from Smoketown who hadn't flown in a long time and wasn't current wth airspace.

 

[bbchien]

If a pilot with the training and experience to fly a King Air can't stay out of the damn FRZ, then we are doomed.

"I have met the enemy and he is US"....Walt Kelly. There is just NO excuse for this: Land, turnaround, go back. So now we have a big-budget boob with turbine ship making us lose civil liberties at Winchester, Hagerstown, .....

Makes you wanna go v_mit.

 

[Bob Bement]

Right on Brother Bruce. We as a group of pilots must do something to save out freedoms!

 

[woodstock]

"I have met the enemy and he is US"....Walt Kelly. There is just NO excuse for this: Land, turnaround, go back. So now we have a big-budget boob with turbine ship making us lose civil liberties at Winchester, Hagerstown, .....

Makes you wanna go v_mit.

no no no no.

this is the GOVERNMENT doing this - and it's bull****.

 

[wsuffa]

We are in danger, I think, of losing at least 100 mile radius of DC. Once that happens, the mayors of NY and Chicago will join in.

WE have to take the initiative to prevent this sort of incursion. Otherwise, we are just proving that GA cannot be trusted - neither with flying nor with any sort of security precautions.

Yes, I believe that the security folks in gov't are using these things to influence Congress since Congress is pushing to loosen restrictions at DCA and other places. However, the GA community is giving them the ammunition.

Now that the Feds have a process in place for allowing transients in the DC-3, they can expand that process to the other airports. And if there's inconvenience to us, so be it.

 

[Greebo]

Oh Great Flaming Piles of Chef's Chocolate Salty Balls!

Well, considering how stupid some of our fellow pilots are being, it's hardly surprising. Pretty soon the FRZ will extend to baltimore and the ADIZ will cover all of VA and most of WV and a big chunk of PA.

 

[Carol]

Oh Great Flaming Piles of Chef's Chocolate Salty Balls!

Well, considering how stupid some of our fellow pilots are being, it's hardly surprising. Pretty soon the FRZ will extend to baltimore and the ADIZ will cover all of VA and most of WV and a big chunk of PA.

First Washington. Then where else? It's only a matter of time if nothing is done to stop it.

 

[inav8r]

According to what I saw on MSNBC (who seemed to carry the story for a good 30 minutes beyond what CNN and FOX carried it) the plane was squawking 1200 - so how do you get to the FRZ when you are flying from Wilmington, DE (KILG) to Defiance, OH (KDFI)?

EDIT: (the article answered my question) "A federal official said radio communication between the pilot and authorities indicated that the pilot ended up in the restricted area while trying to avoid bad weather. The Secret Service said the pilot was released last night after questioning."

I really felt that Dan Abrams was ready to call for the grounding of all civil aircraft that weren't attached to an airline. He was treating this like it was some sort of attack on the US and that we all needed to run out and buy plastic and duct tape... I used to like Abrams, especially back in his Court TV days, but after last night I was like Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Attached: The direct route from ILG->DFI (via AOPA's Real Time Flight Planner).

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Is there someplace I can go to get a better grasp of the facts? Sounds like he was avioding weather but not flight following or talking to Center. It would be nice to know the pilot's perspective, but I certainly agree--anyone can just go up and bust this space. Sure doesn't help our cause.

Best,

Dave
Baron 322KS

 

[wsuffa]

Dave,

If the pilot's getting legal advice, I wouldn't expect him to talk.

The press is reporting that he was avoiding bad weather.

I can see the scenario going something like this. Pilot takes off IFR, asks for deviations. Potomac Approach/Washington Center says "unable" due to workload, traffic, arrivals, whatever. Pilot says "cancel IFR, we'll avoid 'em VFR". That kind of scenario works in a number of places. Pilot is above Class Bravo, so that's a non-issue, and pilot is carrying only IFR charts (he's a King-Air, so why fly with VFR charts), so he doesn't see the dimensions of the ADIZ nor the FRZ. I saw a radar picture (forgotten how to get the historical on NexRad) that shows the weather going down close to the FRZ.

In most areas, that process would be *fine*. It's NOT in the DC area.

Note that I'm not justifying it, I'm merely explaining one possible scenario.

 

[Brian Austin]

Is there someplace I can go to get a better grasp of the facts?

Anytime the media is delivering the 'facts' you'll hear only what they want you to hear and nothing more. Fact of life, from both sides of the political spectrum.

 

[wsuffa]

Found 'em.

Here are the radar and sat pictures for 2100 and 2200 z yesterday.

 

[rpadula]

I can see the scenario going something like this. Pilot takes off IFR, asks for deviations. Potomac Approach/Washington Center says "unable" due to workload, traffic, arrivals, whatever. Pilot says "cancel IFR, we'll avoid 'em VFR". That kind of scenario works in a number of places. Pilot is above Class Bravo, so that's a non-issue, and pilot is carrying only IFR charts (he's a King-Air, so why fly with VFR charts), so he doesn't see the dimensions of the ADIZ nor the FRZ. I saw a radar picture (forgotten how to get the historical on NexRad) that shows the weather going down close to the FRZ.

In most areas, that process would be *fine*. It's NOT in the DC area.

Note that I'm not justifying it, I'm merely explaining one possible scenario.

OK, so maybe the pilot's not a complete jackass. IIRC, I think I've read some stories that this is how people have busted P-40 in the past. Ring a bell for anyone?

Still, doesn't the ADIZ roughly follow the outlines of the 3 Class B areas up there? IFR charts should show Class B outlines....


-Rich

 

[EdFred]

Just move the *$&#@! capital of the US to Eureka, NV. It's 40 miles from the nearest victor airway. It's 55 miles from the nearest airport (not including the one in Eureka), there's only one paved road into the place, and there's no boat access. MOA's to the north, south, east, west, and R-areas to the south, east, and west.

They want "security"? Go there.

 

[Richard]

Our man launches and already is requesting deviations for wx? Even in normal circumstance this would look like poor planning but this is a big problem in the DC area. Such deviations so soon after departure implies the pilot did not familairize himself with the wx. Or, he did but his Plan A was to deviate to the south. PP planning, if you ask me. What level cells in that line?

 

[SJP]

Dave,
(he's a King-Air, so why fly with VFR charts),

If you are flying without VFR charts, the option of cancelling IFR and flying VFR shouldn't be an option should it ? 135 and 121 both suggest carrying 'appropriate charts' and 91.503 would appear to apply if he wasn't under the other regimes.

Regardless, The guy is a professional pilot, it's part of his job to have all the info he needs to conduct a safe flight. If he was 'avoiding' weather, then why not get on the radio, talk to the guys with radar, work out a way around. To not talk to anyone, and then screw up in some of the most sensitive airspace in the country ? Sorry, that's just unacceptable.

 

[SJP]

no no no no.

this is the GOVERNMENT doing this - and it's bull****.

Only because us pilots keep supplying them with all the reasons they need

 

[wsuffa]

Our man launches and already is requesting deviations for wx? Even in normal circumstance this would look like poor planning but this is a big problem in the DC area. Such deviations so soon after departure implies the pilot did not familairize himself with the wx. Or, he did but his Plan A was to deviate to the south. PP planning, if you ask me. What level cells in that line?

Wanna guess the clearance you get on that route IFR? Most likely he was routed up over PTW, MXE, or HAR, then airways. That would put him through the worst of it.

Want a more direct flight? VFR it is. Want to avoid weather, deviate south, only way to do it is VFR. The IFR system in the mid atlantic is not set up to allow much flexibility.

Poor planning, I agree. No one should fly through that area without understanding the implications.

 

[rpadula]

no no no no.

this is the GOVERNMENT doing this - and it's bull****.

Really? The government is making pilots bust FARs?

Um... that's a unique perspective.


I'm with Dr. Bruce. The stakes are high around DC. Bring your A game.


-Rich

 

[wsuffa]

I'm with Dr. Bruce. The stakes are high around DC. Bring your A game.


-Rich

Me, too. Me, too.

 

[woodstock]

Really? The government is making pilots bust FARs?

Um... that's a unique perspective.


I'm with Dr. Bruce. The stakes are high around DC. Bring your A game.


-Rich

get rid of the ADIZ, accept that you can't avoid every single last risk that exists, and move on. look at all the money wasted needlessly over the incursions that turned out to be nothing. were they real threats - too late once they are up in the air.

 

[Ken Ibold]

First Washington. Then where else?

You have to ask? Disney, of course.

 

[Greebo]

And Chicago, cause they're jealous of Disney.

 

[Greebo]

Speaking of Disney - when we were in Orlando a few weeks back we went to all four major parks. While at every one of them, I saw helicopters flying over Disney - presumably the "helicopter tour" company helos. I seem to recall Disney having a TFR up to 3,500 or so? These could not have been that high, I could see them too well.

What happened to the Disney TFR? Did it go away? Or do those helos have special permits?

 

[wsuffa]

were they real threats - too late once they are up in the air.

And that part is the logic that the security folks will use to expand both the ADIZ and the FRZ. They will conveniently forget the rest.

Somehow, somewhere, both political parties in this country have gravitated to wanting to provide absolute protection to all the citizens all the time.....

 

[poadeleted1]

no no no no.

this is the GOVERNMENT doing this - and it's bull****.

lizabeth, you are free to have your opinion on this one, but the fact is the rules are in place and pilots are required to follow the rules. OK, the gummint put the rules there, and maybe they are crappy, but until pilots demonstrate the ability to follow the rules, we should not expect them to loosen up.

When you did not follow your parents rules, did they just get rid of the rule? Wherever it is that you work - same thing - they have rules. If you don't follow them, do you think they will just toss the rule?

We are are own worst enemy in this one, and because we can't police ourselves, external organizations do it. C'est la vie.

KP

 

[Ken Ibold]

Speaking of Disney - when we were in Orlando a few weeks back we went to all four major parks. While at every one of them, I saw helicopters flying over Disney - presumably the "helicopter tour" company helos. I seem to recall Disney having a TFR up to 3,500 or so? These could not have been that high, I could see them too well.

What happened to the Disney TFR? Did it go away? Or do those helos have special permits?

The TFR is statutory and contains no provisions for special permits. There are two loopholes. One is that the TFR does not apply if you're talking to Kissimmee tower or Orlando Approach. The other is that the restricted area is centered on the middle of Disney property. The Magic Kingdom is at the extreme edge of the circle, such that you can fly close enough to hit Cinderella's castle with a rock. Likewise, Epcot is at the edge of the circle too, though not as close. Here are two shots of the Magic Kingdom, taken from legal positions with a 50 mm lens. No zooming here. One is at the horizontal border of the TFR, the other is overhead at a legal 3501 feet agl.

 

[Greebo]

I'll wager a guess then that the numerous planes we saw directly over the park at I dunno, 1,500? 2,000 tops were in touch with ATC then.

Kind of a useless TFR innit?

 

[Richard]

lizabeth, you are free to have your opinion on this one, but the fact is the rules are in place and pilots are required to follow the rules. OK, the gummint put the rules there, and maybe they are crappy, but until pilots demonstrate the ability to follow the rules, we should not expect them to loosen up.

When you did not follow your parents rules, did they just get rid of the rule? Wherever it is that you work - same thing - they have rules. If you don't follow them, do you think they will just toss the rule?

We are are own worst enemy in this one, and because we can't police ourselves, external organizations do it. C'est la vie.

KP

By saying that you are not allowing for differences in rules; some rules are so onerous they defy compliance. An activist government coupled with steadfast devotion to procedural orthodoxy is our worst enemy.

The rules, in the case of the FRZ, are not making us safer. And yes, if a parent instituted a bad rule a good parent would, after realizing it is a bad rule, drop the rule, after all the welfare of the child always supercedes the importance of any rule.

In all cases if the rule is crappy we need to overturn the rule. Don't for a minute pretend that our increased adherence to the rule will 'loosen' the rule. FCOL, that increase could work against us because it could be viewed as evidence that the rule is good.

 

[Richard]

Say la f----- vee? That's what got us here in the first place! And it's what will keep us in this quagmire. Forgive me, I get carried away by all this handwringing. But it's not some fantasy dreamworld. M'gosh, every day this world becomes more reminiscent of Vonnegut's, Player Piano.

 

[sere]

Just move the *$&#@! capital of the US to Eureka, NV. It's 40 miles from the nearest victor airway. It's 55 miles from the nearest airport (not including the one in Eureka), there's only one paved road into the place, and there's no boat access. MOA's to the north, south, east, west, and R-areas to the south, east, and west.

They want "security"? Go there.

Now this is the best idea I have heard short of stopping all this government c---.

 

[Lance F]

I posted this in another thread that's kind of died out.
Hey, I know the pilot. This plane flys out of my airport. It's a beautiful King Air 350 that lives in a hanger next to mine. As a matter of fact I have flown this airplane - 1.0 hours in my logbook from PDK to PFN!
Scott is a good, serious and attentive professional pilot. Can't imagine how this happened, but I'll find out. All I know so far is he was VFR and solo on a return trip from dropping off passengers.
The issue of flying VFR to avoid unreasonable/unsafe (cause of weather) is real and I'll bet is exactly what Scott . It's too bad for him and for all of GA. As the man said, "You be careful out there."

 

[Bruce Brown]

In regards to the DC area, perhaps the first part of a flight service operator's briefing should cover ADIZ restrictions. And if filing electronically, an ADIZ restrictions page should first pop up. Not to free the pilots of their responsibilty of knowing the facts, but rather as another reminder.
Bruce Brown

 

[poadeleted1]

By saying that you are not allowing for differences in rules; some rules are so onerous they defy compliance. An activist government coupled with steadfast devotion to procedural orthodoxy is our worst enemy.

The rules, in the case of the FRZ, are not making us safer. And yes, if a parent instituted a bad rule a good parent would, after realizing it is a bad rule, drop the rule, after all the welfare of the child always supercedes the importance of any rule.

In all cases if the rule is crappy we need to overturn the rule. Don't for a minute pretend that our increased adherence to the rule will 'loosen' the rule. FCOL, that increase could work against us because it could be viewed as evidence that the rule is good.

So you are saying that mass defiance will get it changed? Did you ever do time in the military? Spend time in the brig? As pilots we conform or die. Its that simple.

If you don't like the rule, lead the charge to get it changed. As someone elses signature line says "You ain't gonna get it done drinking coffee".

I do not like having restrictions placed on where I fly, but they are there. They (ADIZ's and TFR's) are not much different than a very rigorously enforced Class B with a few quirks. If you can't adapt to the change, and you can't get the system to change, you don't have many options. Right now, those are the rules and you either play by the rules or pay the price. It does not matter if you don't play by the rules because you are ignorant, stupid or carless. If it's an emergency deviation, then you come up on 121.5 and explain yourself. But so far, even 121.5 does not appear to be monitored by the violators.

So you tell me, what is the gov't. supposed to do??? Nothing and just let you fly where you please whenever you want? Heck, why have ATC if you feel like that?

KP