The FBO asked me: "Why are pilots so cheap"

[tinerj]

Some cities want visitor business.

For a plane landing for an overnight stay, the airport is the exit ramp to that city. It makes good financial sense to attract pilots by letting them land for free.

Even if it is not an overnight stay, a C car for a run into town means pilot and passengers will leave behind some money.

So, yes, I do expect a town to be in competition with others locations to get my business. If that competition takes the form of no charges for landing or tie down, I'll take advantage of it.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

People complain about Signature, but you can go to their site and use an online calculator to figure out your fee based on the airplane type and the amount of fuel you buy. I think part of the reason fees are not posted is that they are based on airplane type or size and the amount of fuel you buy. That would be a pretty big spreadsheet to publish. I have often had CSRs looking down a multipage list for the amount to charge us. I'm not making an excuse for them, just realize it's not a flat fee for every airplane.

Link please?

I remember it used to be there, but just poked all around their site with no luck.

All I see now is this:

https://www.signatureflight.com/handling-charge-policy

Handling Charge Policy
We believe the quality, safety, comfort and security of executive aviation travel should be reflected in the services provided by the FBO. Accordingly, Signature Flight Support facilities are designed and staffed to meet the highest service standards. To facilitate the equitable distribution of the costs associated with maintaining and operating our facilities, a facility fee will be applied to all aircraft. Additionally, a handling charge will apply to aircraft that do not purchase a minimum amount of fuel.​

Unless I'm mistaken, it looks like they're back to the "hide the charges" game.

And I still can't comprehend in this day and age why a "pretty big spreadsheet" of fees can't be posted on the web in one form or another. Any online retailer these days has a "pretty big list" of SKUs for sale, and most use very user friendly point of sale engines to display transaction costs. Even on a cell phone screen.

How many line items does Amazon have vs. Signature?

 

[Everskyward]

Link please?

I remember it used to be there, but just poked all around their site with no luck.

All I see now is this:

https://www.signatureflight.com/handling-charge-policy

Handling Charge Policy
We believe the quality, safety, comfort and security of executive aviation travel should be reflected in the services provided by the FBO. Accordingly, Signature Flight Support facilities are designed and staffed to meet the highest service standards. To facilitate the equitable distribution of the costs associated with maintaining and operating our facilities, a facility fee will be applied to all aircraft. Additionally, a handling charge will apply to aircraft that do not purchase a minimum amount of fuel.​

Unless I'm mistaken, it looks like they're back to the "hide the charges" game.

And I still can't comprehend in this day and age why a "pretty big spreadsheet" of fees can't be posted on the web in one form or another. Any online retailer these days has a "pretty big list" of SKUs for sale, and most use very user friendly point of sale engines to display transaction costs. Even on a cell phone screen.

How many line items does Amazon have vs. Signature?

You're correct. I couldn't find it either. I hadn't gone to that site in at least a year and they have changed it. Bad them.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

You're correct. I couldn't find it either. I hadn't gone to that site in at least a year and they have changed it. Bad them.

And that was a conscious, corporate decision to obfuscate their pricing structure. It didn't happen by accident.

My last Signature visit to NJ with my old Mooney this winter was a service mess. The plane wasn't hangared or fueled per my documented request for an early AM departure with well below freezing temps (guess who doesn't have a pre-heat service in the NE, and requires $$ hangar rentals to stay warm?)

I happened to stop by at 10:00 pm on a whim, and listened to significant whining from the line guys when my plane (and everyone else's) were still sitting outside without being fueled. They claimed that they couldn't move any planes without the tug operator and two trained wing spotters, and that management had not trained one of their three night shift employees for wing spotting. So they were happy to sit on their hands inside all shift and complain about how badly the company treats them. And they stated it wasn't the first night that happened.

I convinced them that I would spot, and they begrudgingly pushed it in with me walking along side. No one ever asked if I was trained.

Oh -- and the fueling. They wouldn't fuel it that night before putting it away, because "policy" states it might leak into the hangar. But they'd be happy to pull it, fuel it, and have it ready in the am before I left.

Guess what didn't happen, and took an hour past my departure to get pulled and fueled in the am.

Premium service, my arse. (To their mediocre credit, the am manager decided not to bill me for the hangar after I complained.)

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Nope not podunk and I consider the fee reasonable. I was attempting to explain a counter perspective, in the spirit of answering, why are pilots so cheap.

I just paid $60cdn a night at Toronto City Center airport. I get it.

That said some FBOs are way more expensive than others, and frankly it is in a municipality's best interests to keep the airport User costs reasonable.


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By the way, I walked into that overpriced facility with my FBO game face on, smiling and friendly. No attitude until the next am when I was handed the bill for my premium "service". And at that, I stayed professional and provided customer feedback for their benefit.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Should a C-150 pay as much as a Gulfstream?

Absolutely not. Gulfstream/Global Express require more time, resources and effort to handle.. plus a lot more liability. A $20 million aircraft is not It's a huge PITA to make a catering order for 12. But it costs the same to provide a bathroom for them, or WiFi. So although 150 may pay $10, the Gulfstream pays hundreds.

Some cities want visitor business.

For a plane landing for an overnight stay, the airport is the exit ramp to that city. It makes good financial sense to attract pilots by letting them land for free.

Even if it is not an overnight stay, a C car for a run into town means pilot and passengers will leave behind some money.

So, yes, I do expect a town to be in competition with others locations to get my business. If that competition takes the form of no charges for landing or tie down, I'll take advantage of it.

Okay, so how about this. Whenever a visitor to the city arrives, we waive all fees, give them fuel at cost and then send the city a bill for "helping out"?? Most places don't have a landing fee for small aircraft. Some FBOs use a facility fee (use of facilities) or a ramp fee (use of ramp) to combat non-fuel purchasers so that the services they provide are in fact paid for. The only true bogus fees are the security fee or infrastructure fee (Signature)... but only large airports charge an actual landing fee typically. As my old boss said "It's just a way to pad the bottom line for corporate". Those are bogus, but you can't do anything to waive them, and we were strictly forbidden to waive those, but we could waive ramp fees at our discretion when I worked as a big corporate FBO. Anyway, I digress. Most FBOs (not all!) are private businesses and it is NOT the job of the FBO to subsidize tourism in town. If the city or the tourism department is going to pay for each fee I waive, I'll wave them all. But FBOs are in business to make money in order to enhance services, grow businsses and keep them for our kids and grandkids to own in the future. People don't get upset at Target because they have to pay for merchandise, why do they get upset at paying for services?


And let's be real, we all know no one likes going into a shack of an unattended FBO with a shady sort-of-working fuel pump that has maybe had one filter change in the last ten years. Everyone likes the couches and the WiFi and the friendly greetings, and a hangar if it hails. These things cost money to provide.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

People don't get upset at Target because they have to pay for merchandise, why do they get upset at paying for services?

I think you are confused. Target is an end destination, the FBO is not.

Your analogy would be better if the highway off-ramp dumped pilots into a razor wire fenced parking lot with only one gate that is monitored by your FBO.

Where all have to pay your multiple fees that aren't posted anywhere but on a clip board hidden beneath the counter, and walk through your shiny lobby, just to pass through and go shopping at Target.

And, some of the fees might be waived if 10 gallons of insanely priced fuel are bought, which aren't needed anyway because the gas tank is 3/4 full already.

And let's be real, we all know no one likes going into a shack of an unattended FBO with a shady sort-of-working fuel pump that has maybe had one filter change in the last ten years. Everyone likes the couches and the WiFi and the friendly greetings, and a hangar if it hails. These things cost money to provide.

Yea, 10 years between fuel filter changes and a shack.That's pure bullpucky.

There are occasions that it's nice to impress a special passenger with a shiny lobby.

However, the majority of the time, MANY pilots are only looking for a gate on the highway off-ramp so they can get to their destination without paying the Trolls for services that aren't needed or wanted.

Your FBOs remind me of city squeegemen in snazzy uniforms. I avoid your type like the plague, and visit a lot of awful nice "shacks" where my final destination is not your building.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Some FBOs use a facility fee (use of facilities) or a ramp fee (use of ramp) to combat non-fuel purchasers so that the services they provide are in fact paid for.

So, you think interacting with pilots who are only trying to get to a destination is combat? Why not charge for services as rendered, and leave a turnstile for those that don't want any on a particular trip? Do you know how many times I've gotten tired of waiting for a ramper while idling away, shut down, pushed myself in, and walked into the building only to see a handling fee on my bill?

FBOs are in business to make money in order to enhance services, grow businsses and keep them for our kids and grandkids to own in the future.

By running the competition off the airfield via an exclusive and shady flowage contract with the airport board. I'm not going to even address having GA pilots fund the hand-off of this scheme to their kids and grandkids.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I think you are confused. Target is an end destination, the FBO is not.

Your analogy would be better if the highway off-ramp dumped pilots into a razor wire fenced parking lot with only one gate that is monitored by your FBO.

Where all have to pay your multiple fees that aren't posted anywhere but on a clip board hidden beneath the counter, and walk through your shiny lobby, just to pass through and go shopping at Target.

And, some of the fees might be waived if 10 gallons of insanely priced fuel are bought, which aren't needed anyway because the gas tank is 3/4 full already.

Yea, 10 years between fuel filter changes and a shack.That's pure bullpucky.

There are occasions that it's nice to impress a special passenger with a shiny lobby.

However, the majority of the time, MANY pilots are only looking for a gate on the highway off-ramp so they can get to their destination without paying the Trolls for services that aren't needed or wanted.

Your FBOs remind me of city squeegemen in snazzy uniforms. I avoid your type like the plague, and visit a lot of awful nice "shacks" where my final destination is not your building.

I don't work at a big-name FBO anymore. The current place I work is a one-off, family owned operation. With a nice lobby, good employees and well maintained facilities (fuel trucks/tanks included). I don't agree with the Signature way nor do I practice that way. But why is it such a bad thing to make a profit? When you pull off the highway and pull into a gas station.. say a Loves truck stop. Nice, clean, shiny truck stop where you feel very safe, there are snacks and drinks for purchase and clean bathrooms... If your car doesn't need gas and you just pee inside this building... do you not feel a little guilty if you don't buy a bottle of water or something? Or do you just expect that toilet to be there always because you have to pee?

So, you think interacting with pilots who are only trying to get to a destination is combat? Why not charge for services as rendered, and leave a turnstile for those that don't want any on a particular trip? Do you know how many times I've gotten tired of waiting for a ramper while idling away, shut down, pushed myself in, and walked into the building only to see a handling fee on my bill?

By running the competition off the airfield via an exclusive and shady flowage contract with the airport board. I'm not going to even address having GA pilots fund the hand-off of this scheme to their kids and grandkids.

So, are FBO owners, operators, managers and employees not entitled to a livable wage and a profit? Who the heck brought up a "shady flowage contract"?? At least where I work every facility pays the airport the same flowage fee.. doesn't matter which building you go to the city always gets the same cut. Like I said above, I do not work for a big corporation anymore and I don't agree with their fee structures, or their monopoly strategy, but I pay them when required without any issue.. Seriously I flew into KSAN last month in a PA28 and it was $25/night to park (city gets that money) and would have been a $25 fee if I hadn't bought fuel but I did.. which I got a discount on just cause I asked nicely. If I didn't want to pay the fees I would have gone into Mongomery, but SAN was way more convenient. Fees for convenience. At the end of the day this is America and we can all make our own choices as to where to go/park/fuel. And being as this is America we have the awesome opportunity to run businesses FOR PROFIT. How great that I can feed my family because my employer believes in making enough money to pay all of us a great wage, pay themselves and keep the business going. For that I am grateful.

 

[overdrive148]

Yea, 10 years between fuel filter changes and a shack.That's pure bullpucky.

FBO's with really shady equipment/sumping/safety aspects definitely exist. But on the whole the fuel suppliers tend to keep them in check.

Then again, during my advanced line tech training in Houston, the instructor said that a batch of jet fuel changed paperwork/numbers/measurements halfway through delivery. The paperwork showed a different API Gravity measurement than what should have been found by the FBO line techs before receiving the fuel (which would have resulted in a huge number of jet load rejections, raising flags for the distributor that something was wrong).

Turns out only 4 FBO's of ~30 actually ended up catching the difference in numbers. The rest pencil whipped the numbers into the book without measuring.

I measure every time. Fuel is way too important to cut corners with.

 

[Everskyward]

People complain about Signature, but you can go to their site and use an online calculator to figure out your fee based on the airplane type and the amount of fuel you buy. I think part of the reason fees are not posted is that they are based on airplane type or size and the amount of fuel you buy. That would be a pretty big spreadsheet to publish. I have often had CSRs looking down a multipage list for the amount to charge us. I'm not making an excuse for them, just realize it's not a flat fee for every airplane.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. I was just wondering why paflyer responded to me in this way. See posts #149 and #150.

I'm not making an excuse for them, just realize it's not a flat fee for every airplane.

Why isn't it? That is the question.

Should a C-150 pay as much as a Gulfstream?

I was curious why @paflyer questioned the fact that it's usually not a flat fee for every airplane. Or maybe I misinterpreted what he was asking.

 

[Bill Watson]

And I bet the FBOs you visit appreciate you for purchasing fuel! 9/10 you won't get charged a ramp/facility fee if you purchase fuel even if you don't meet the requested minimum. It really is the thought that counts!

As the folks at KACY said yesterday, "you said the magic words - Top it off". All benefits from the fuel purchase then flow. It's hard to burn off much coming from 39N not 60nm away.

KACY was a fine 'drop a passenger' stop. I didn't mind paying the $10 landing fee or the $5 infrastructure fee or being exempted from the $80 facility fee. Clean A/C rest rooms, snacks, coffee and soft chairs were worth another $10 in my book, even for a 20 minute stop while waiting for an uber car. Traveling in the most luxurious way possible requires decent terminal facilities. Sitting under a tree swatting bugs, drinking hose water, and averting my gaze while my passenger relieves herself kind of kills the mood, no? I've done plenty of those on glider landouts - no thanks.



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[Bill Watson]

I have no doubt that some folks need nothing more from the FBO than an old guy pointing to where they need to park. Some of us need a little more at times and should not expect these services to be provided free. So for me the only question is whether the charge is reasonable or not. $15 a night is reasonable. Couple of weeks ago I went to Key West where the only FBO is Signature. They charged me $25 a night but waived one night with fuel purchase. I did not feel the charge to be unreasonable considering the horror stories I've heard about Signature in other places. They arranged for transportation, towed my plane to a parking spot and tied it down, provided water, got my plane fueled and ready for my departure, etc. Now, if I was going to stay there for more than a few days I would hope they would be willing to negotiate the fee. I don't know if they would but reducing the fee for an extended stay would be expected as the reasonable thing to do. Keeping things in perspective a reasonable charge is ok with me to keep the FBOs around providing service when needed.


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We go there every Oct for 6-8 days. They charge $25 per and I doubt it's negotiable. I'm not leaving and the tie downs are full well down the runway... I'll Bet you can't even imagine how far they go after filling up the 3 or 4 rows up front. They have location, especially for seasonal events.


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[Bill Watson]

I fly to West Lebanon NH frequently. I got used to paying a $25 ramp fee for a PA46 Matrix. Showed up with a PA46 (well, P46T for internet sticklers) Meridian, got charged $75 because it was a turboprop. Same basic airframe and footprint. I thought it was bogus but not an argument worth having with a CSR or line guy.

Can't do the time, don't do the crime....

I'm sure I'd feel different if I was driving a turbine but the pricing is like progressive taxation. The more you are able to pay, the more you are charged. Sounds like it sucks unless you think of the gal who has spent every dollar she has on her 70s vintage C150 and has few $$ left for 'facility charges'. The guy with the twin turbines has more disposable income so why not hit him up for a bit more than her? Sure some rich guy may fly a Cub in and break the model but no fly by the bootstraps guy will come by in an old Pilatus, nope.

Now in my case I have to double check the charges for aircraft type. Often, as was the case at KACY yesterday, there is no entry for experimental or RV10s. Poor folks spent 10 minutes trying to figure that one out. And no, you can't assume the desk staff has a clue as to pricing strategies, let alone progressive taxation.

Can't do the time, don't do the crime...


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[denverpilot]

Absolutely not. Gulfstream/Global Express require more time, resources and effort to handle.. plus a lot more liability. A $20 million aircraft is not It's a huge PITA to make a catering order for 12. But it costs the same to provide a bathroom for them, or WiFi. So although 150 may pay $10, the Gulfstream pays hundreds.



Okay, so how about this. Whenever a visitor to the city arrives, we waive all fees, give them fuel at cost and then send the city a bill for "helping out"?? Most places don't have a landing fee for small aircraft. Some FBOs use a facility fee (use of facilities) or a ramp fee (use of ramp) to combat non-fuel purchasers so that the services they provide are in fact paid for. The only true bogus fees are the security fee or infrastructure fee (Signature)... but only large airports charge an actual landing fee typically. As my old boss said "It's just a way to pad the bottom line for corporate". Those are bogus, but you can't do anything to waive them, and we were strictly forbidden to waive those, but we could waive ramp fees at our discretion when I worked as a big corporate FBO. Anyway, I digress. Most FBOs (not all!) are private businesses and it is NOT the job of the FBO to subsidize tourism in town. If the city or the tourism department is going to pay for each fee I waive, I'll wave them all. But FBOs are in business to make money in order to enhance services, grow businsses and keep them for our kids and grandkids to own in the future. People don't get upset at Target because they have to pay for merchandise, why do they get upset at paying for services?


And let's be real, we all know no one likes going into a shack of an unattended FBO with a shady sort-of-working fuel pump that has maybe had one filter change in the last ten years. Everyone likes the couches and the WiFi and the friendly greetings, and a hangar if it hails. These things cost money to provide.

I don't work at a big-name FBO anymore. The current place I work is a one-off, family owned operation. With a nice lobby, good employees and well maintained facilities (fuel trucks/tanks included). I don't agree with the Signature way nor do I practice that way. But why is it such a bad thing to make a profit? When you pull off the highway and pull into a gas station.. say a Loves truck stop. Nice, clean, shiny truck stop where you feel very safe, there are snacks and drinks for purchase and clean bathrooms... If your car doesn't need gas and you just pee inside this building... do you not feel a little guilty if you don't buy a bottle of water or something? Or do you just expect that toilet to be there always because you have to pee?




So, are FBO owners, operators, managers and employees not entitled to a livable wage and a profit? Who the heck brought up a "shady flowage contract"?? At least where I work every facility pays the airport the same flowage fee.. doesn't matter which building you go to the city always gets the same cut. Like I said above, I do not work for a big corporation anymore and I don't agree with their fee structures, or their monopoly strategy, but I pay them when required without any issue.. Seriously I flew into KSAN last month in a PA28 and it was $25/night to park (city gets that money) and would have been a $25 fee if I hadn't bought fuel but I did.. which I got a discount on just cause I asked nicely. If I didn't want to pay the fees I would have gone into Mongomery, but SAN was way more convenient. Fees for convenience. At the end of the day this is America and we can all make our own choices as to where to go/park/fuel. And being as this is America we have the awesome opportunity to run businesses FOR PROFIT. How great that I can feed my family because my employer believes in making enough money to pay all of us a great wage, pay themselves and keep the business going. For that I am grateful.

All of this above takes care of itself if the fees are published. I can figure out whether I need your services at those prices if they're on your web page.

As far as whether the people there "deserve" a living wage? Sure. If I need the services and the prices are right. Not via hidden fees and coercion to pay just because someone taxiied up.

Well that, and I honestly don't care what someone needs to live, at any business other than waiters and waitresses. I always tip those folks up to well above minimum wage. I actually need them there since I already decided to eat out, and their employer's are scum who don't pay them well enough.

Your "combat" comment was very telling. That's not service.

The typical hidden fee FBO is doing this:

I pull up my car to the self serve pump and get out to fill it myself. They grab the handle, pump the gas for me, some dude drives the car through a car wash, six other dudes wipe the car down inside and out and dump all the trash, and someone hands me a soda from a fountain and a snack. None of which I asked for...

And then they hand me a bill for all of those items.

Now if they had asked, and published their prices, I probably would have said Yeah... I'd like the full serve gas, and the soda, I don't need the wash or the wipe down. Maybe next time.

 

[Bill Watson]

Who's complaining about $15 overnight? I think most have a problem of no low cost options for a quick stop or to pick up/drop off and then paying 8.00 for fuel to avoid getting feed.

$15 is fair for a quick stop at a specific destination. All of us can go up and bust clouds and return for a local flight. If you want to commit to some actual travel then you need to pay the people who make that travel pleasant and comfortable... or go back to cloud busting.

Then learn to smile and appreciate the people who work the desk for your golden 5 minutes. Do it right and you'll often find yourself comp'd. But if that's not worth the time, pay the 15. And if the fuel is 8-per, 15 is too low. I've looked at 8 but didn't even have to pay to stop at KMIA. Smile, don't ask and move it along


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[tinerj]

Quote: People don't get upset at Target because they have to pay for merchandise, why do they get upset at paying for services?

BUT I can park for free at Target and use the restroom, too. And most have free Wi-Fi. If I want to come in and walk around to get some exercise, they are good with that, too.

 

[bluerooster]

That really isn't unreasonable for transient parking in a decent location. A fuel purchase would probably get one night waived.

Not at Golden Isles.

 

[flyersfan31]

I'm sure I'd feel different if I was driving a turbine but the pricing is like progressive taxation. The more you are able to pay, the more you are charged. Sounds like it sucks unless you think of the gal who has spent every dollar she has on her 70s vintage C150 and has few $$ left for 'facility charges'. The guy with the twin turbines has more disposable income so why not hit him up for a bit more than her? Sure some rich guy may fly a Cub in and break the model but no fly by the bootstraps guy will come by in an old Pilatus, nope.

Now in my case I have to double check the charges for aircraft type. Often, as was the case at KACY yesterday, there is no entry for experimental or RV10s. Poor folks spent 10 minutes trying to figure that one out. And no, you can't assume the desk staff has a clue as to pricing strategies, let alone progressive taxation.

Can't do the time, don't do the crime...


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Yeah! I get it. Situations like mine just show how ludicrous it is. Same airframe, different fuel. That's it. What is even more ludicrous is that now I fly a twin piston that is wider, longer, and heavier and my fee is only $50. Slowly but surely I will claw back those charges!!!!


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[Z06_Mir]

Quote: People don't get upset at Target because they have to pay for merchandise, why do they get upset at paying for services?

BUT I can park for free at Target and use the restroom, too. And most have free Wi-Fi. If I want to come in and walk around to get some exercise, they are good with that, too.

Seriously? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. People like you are why there are facility fees in the first place. People take take take take and refuse to give anything in exchange. Back in the day when people bought fuel to be nice there weren't fees. But now, if you can get it a nickel cheaper at the next place you don't buy it.

 

[Bill Watson]

Yeah! I get it. Situations like mine just show how ludicrous it is. Same airframe, different fuel. That's it. What is even more ludicrous is that now I fly a twin piston that is wider, longer, and heavier and my fee is only $50. Slowly but surely I will claw back those charges!!!!


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...but cheaper to operate (?) and the FBO is helping you keep it that way. A Win-Win!

 

[denverpilot]

Seriously? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. People like you are why there are facility fees in the first place. People take take take take and refuse to give anything in exchange. Back in the day when people bought fuel to be nice there weren't fees. But now, if you can get it a nickel cheaper at the next place you don't buy it.

Incorrect. Target knows that people sometimes have to pee, and they sell their product at a high enough price to treat people like humans.

And for the record, I hate Target. There's better examples. But other than inner city gas stations overrun with homeless drug addicts, you won't find a business that limits restroom use to customers and if they have an open/free wifi they also won't care who uses it.

Change Target to McDonalds if you like. They don't care if someone walks inside to use the restroom for free. Maybe they'll buy something maybe they won't. And they don't care if you pull into their parking lot to park or use their wifi. They make their money legitimately with a product they sell inside, not by charging for peeing, parking, and wifi.

And they'll even sell you a burger at a loss hoping you'll buy a soda. If you don't buy a burger or soda today, they know by treating you like a normal human, you'll be back to buy one later.

Some FBOs are such broke businesses) see post about making your business problems my business problems) that they can't get by, selling their actual products. Fuel, maintenance, etc. so they charge fees to park, fees to pee, whatever.

But that still isn't the real problem. The real problem is they hide those fees. You tell me I have to pay $5 to pee, I can decide if I can hold it for ten more minutes to fly to a business that isn't selling tokens for the coin op bathroom. LOL.

 

[bluesideup]

>>Z06_Mir said: ↑

People take take take take and refuse to give anything in exchange. <<

This is the perfect description / definition of some of the FBOs.

I am not sure what it would take to get some people to understand that if you want to be a Real business you have to build, or pay, for the things you use.

FBOs basically move into an area that was already built, an paid for by others, in this case the tax payers. When an FBO is allowed to build a business, use an area on an airport, they should be made to pay for at least the portion / area they intend to use, and already built, and goodwill provided by the environment, and not just move in and take over. They should be made to pay back some of the money the taxpayers spent, then, and only then, they would be allowed to charge to others / conduct business on airports.

Airports should not have anything other than tie down spaces, and the necessary infrastructure needed by the Tower, ATC and some repair, refuel stations.

Everything else should be outside the airport boundaries, and everyone use just a few gates to drive through, this would improve safety and allow the use of an airport to be used for what it was designed for, aircraft.

All pilots are willing to pay for services, if they use them, they should not be forced to use them on public airports built with tax payers money.

In some cases the pilots are willing to purchase goods, like fuel, but the type of fuel needed is not available, and the FBOs have no adjustments for that, you must pay the $45.00, just for landing, or in some cases more, regardless.

Trying to convince an FBO owner / operator that what they are doing is not right, will never succeed, they must be forced, by law, very likely only the Congress / politicians can do it? Will it ever get done? Not likely.

Next we will be looking at the ATC being given away, without taxpayers getting anything back on their investment. I hope that the if it does go forward the people in charge will recognize that giving away taxpayer's investments, without getting anything for it, is not the proper way to do business, and the business that intend to profit from it should pay back to taxpayers their share on the investment. I am sure, I hope, Mr. T knows better than to just give it away?

 

[weilke]

FBOs basically move into an area that was already built, an paid for by others, in this case the tax payers. When an FBO is allowed to build a business, use an area on an airport, they should be made to pay for at least the portion / area they intend to use, and already built, and goodwill provided by the environment, and not just move in and take over. They should be made to pay back some of the money the taxpayers spent, then, and only then, they would be allowed to charge to others / conduct business on airports.

FBO pay lease fees to the airport. If they built their own facility, they pay a land-lease to the airport sponsor. If the airport built the FBO facility, they pay per sft for the buildings and the ramp space. In addition, many airport leases include gross receipts taxes on the FBOs gross revenue and fuel flowage fees on the fuel dispensed by the FBO.

 

[gsengle]

I'm curious why someone would have such strong feelings as to "hate" Target...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Z06_Mir]

FBOs basically move into an area that was already built, an paid for by others, in this case the tax payers. When an FBO is allowed to build a business, use an area on an airport, they should be made to pay for at least the portion / area they intend to use, and already built, and goodwill provided by the environment, and not just move in and take over. They should be made to pay back some of the money the taxpayers spent, then, and only then, they would be allowed to charge to others / conduct business on airports.

Airports should not have anything other than tie down spaces, and the necessary infrastructure needed by the Tower, ATC and some repair, refuel stations.

Everything else should be outside the airport boundaries, and everyone use just a few gates to drive through, this would improve safety and allow the use of an airport to be used for what it was designed for, aircraft.

All pilots are willing to pay for services, if they use them, they should not be forced to use them on public airports built with tax payers money.

In some cases the pilots are willing to purchase goods, like fuel, but the type of fuel needed is not available, and the FBOs have no adjustments for that, you must pay the $45.00, just for landing, or in some cases more, regardless.

Trying to convince an FBO owner / operator that what they are doing is not right, will never succeed, they must be forced, by law, very likely only the Congress / politicians can do it? Will it ever get done? Not likely.

Next we will be looking at the ATC being given away, without taxpayers getting anything back on their investment. I hope that the if it does go forward the people in charge will recognize that giving away taxpayer's investments, without getting anything for it, is not the proper way to do business, and the business that intend to profit from it should pay back to taxpayers their share on the investment. I am sure, I hope, Mr. T knows better than to just give it away?

If an airport provides tie-downs, should the consumer of those not pay for them?

Other than that statement, I highly encourage you to attend some local airport board meetings. They will be eye-opening as to the amount of money that it takes to run an airport, and the amount of money that both FBOs and airlines (if applicable) pay to keep that airport running. FBOs pay ground leases based on improved/unimproved ground. And once those leases are up, their buildings that they built can be demolished or overtaken by the City/County if the City/County chooses. Not to mention the property tax they pay on the buildings (owned) and the ground (leased). I could go on and on about the economics about this, but I don't the time or the energy to argue. I have attempted to put in facts to this discussion about the real costs to run an FBO and it has obviously not been well received.

I know from personal experience my least-favorite FBOs have been either city or county run (Has anyone else experienced the post-office like environment of HND? They charge more and higher fees than Signature San Diego did). Private FBOs have skin in the game, and a passion for the industry. I can assure you, that aside from your big names, they are far from a gold-mine, despite their fees and charges.

 

[Bonchie]

Seriously? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. People like you are why there are facility fees in the first place. People take take take take and refuse to give anything in exchange. Back in the day when people bought fuel to be nice there weren't fees. But now, if you can get it a nickel cheaper at the next place you don't buy it.

This is short sightedness as a business owner.

You are shooting yourself in the foot nickel and diming someone for a bathroom break who might return later and buy 60 gallons off you and park for the night. The truth is, it costs you nothing to let someone stop and take a wizz but you can build good will leading to bigger purchases if you treat that person right. That's standard fair for consumer outfits all over the country because it works in the long run.

When I flew to Texas earlier this year, they gave me two free nights for a fuel purchase plus some free BBQ. Want to bet I'll be going back? I'm going to KVKX this week. Dave isn't even going to charge me to park for the week. I'll be purchasing about 50 gallons though because I respect that he did that for me (even though it's 60 cents cheaper 15 miles away). Want to bet I'll be back?

If someone charges me for simply touching their ramp, I'm going to a different airport next time.

 

[keen9]

You know that grocery stores sell some products at a loss to get people into the store. They know that they'll make it up in other purchases. You don't have to profit on every little service you provide. In fact, when you choose to do so, you're likely to make less money overall.

 

[arkvet]

I don't mind paying around $15 / night to tie down when out of town. Small expense relative to my overall costs of flying.

I've had one time where I was very aggravated at at fee. I was doing a pilotsnpaws trip and going to pick up some pups at Fort Smith. FSM was going to be the closest place for the foster to meet. Called Tac Air to inquire about where the people needed to go to meet me with the pups. Told them I was only shutting down long enough to get the pups and would be departing. When they told me it would be $20 to land and taxi over to pick up some pups for a charity flight I said thanks but no thanks. I'm sure there are those that would say the charge was justified. That's fine. It is a free world. I landed down the road at a sleepy airport offering an even quicker turn around I'm sure.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm curious why someone would have such strong feelings as to "hate" Target...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL. Long story. Local "policy" on certain things.

If an airport provides tie-downs, should the consumer of those not pay for them?

Public airport? They already did pay for them.

Other than that statement, I highly encourage you to attend some local airport board meetings. They will be eye-opening as to the amount of money that it takes to run an airport, and the amount of money that both FBOs and airlines (if applicable) pay to keep that airport running. FBOs pay ground leases based on improved/unimproved ground. And once those leases are up, their buildings that they built can be demolished or overtaken by the City/County if the City/County chooses. Not to mention the property tax they pay on the buildings (owned) and the ground (leased). I could go on and on about the economics about this, but I don't the time or the energy to argue. I have attempted to put in facts to this discussion about the real costs to run an FBO and it has obviously not been well received.

Again as I've mentioned before, I haven't argued that your business model sucks bad and likely isn't profitable, the issue is whether or not you publish your pricing and fees properly and don't hide them. Your local problems with the local government aren't the transient pilot/customer's
problem. If you publish your prices and they're too high, you have pretty good leverage to tell the airport board how their pricing structure is running everyone off to the airport down the road if it actually happens.

I know from personal experience my least-favorite FBOs have been either city or county run (Has anyone else experienced the post-office like environment of HND? They charge more and higher fees than Signature San Diego did). Private FBOs have skin in the game, and a passion for the industry. I can assure you, that aside from your big names, they are far from a gold-mine, despite their fees and charges.

I found HND to be fine the last time I was there. Reasonable rates, they handled some 100 or so transients on a summer weekend just fine. Fuel was put in the night before departure when it was cool out and wasn't missed or not written down like all sorts of commercial FBOs where my little 182 was an afterthought to them, and they assisted with figuring out ground transportation options when I'd been too lazy to plan that out ahead of time. They showed up immediately with a golf cart when we had to park a long way out due to the number of transients. Decent fuel price.

By comparison, VGT was more expensive, aircraft wasn't fueled when requested delaying departure by an hour after waiting around for a fuel truck for half of that, longer walk and no golf cart, CSRs weren't friendly at all, and didn't offer any assistance with anything, and looked at me like I grew a second head when I politely asked if they sold quarts of oil because I left mine at home in the hangar. Took them like ten minutes of walkie talkie babbling to decide that they had a quart of Aeroshell 15W50 on a truck somewhere. So much for all that fancy software on their computer in front of them that appeared to do nothing useful for them. Fuel price was higher in a year when the national average was lower than the year we went into HND.

I own a hangar on leased ground at KAPA and know all the rumors that airports can tear down buildings and what not. Been people crying wolf about that since I started flying in the 90s. Have seen no stories of it actually happening anywhere where the old building owners weren't made whole by taxpayers and ended up in nicer facilities than they started in at no cost to them other than higher lease numbers after the build. Can you give an example of an airport tearing down an FBO and throwing the leasee off the airport and destroying their building in the last 30 years? I can't find any. It's a boogieman scenario that never happens.

You'd be walking straight from the Board meeting to a waiting TV camera to tell that story if they tried it on your field. The only place anything like that has been remotely threatened is Santa Monica, and that place has been living on borrowed time for decades. And the fight there continues, but probably not for a whole lot longer. The city will still pay off the Feds for their destructive desires.

 

[Palmpilot]

...People don't get upset at Target because they have to pay for merchandise, why do they get upset at paying for services?...

Target posts their prices on the Web.

 

[FloridaPilot]

Wait until the privatization of ATC happens and the airlines take over. You are going to miss 15 dollars a night!

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/going-direct-trump-atc-proposal-shocks-ga-world/#.WTb55-vythE

 

[paflyer]

And that was a conscious, corporate decision to obfuscate their pricing structure. It didn't happen by accident.

My last Signature visit to NJ with my old Mooney this winter was a service mess. The plane wasn't hangared or fueled per my documented request for an early AM departure with well below freezing temps (guess who doesn't have a pre-heat service in the NE, and requires $$ hangar rentals to stay warm?)

I happened to stop by at 10:00 pm on a whim, and listened to significant whining from the line guys when my plane (and everyone else's) were still sitting outside without being fueled. They claimed that they couldn't move any planes without the tug operator and two trained wing spotters, and that management had not trained one of their three night shift employees for wing spotting. So they were happy to sit on their hands inside all shift and complain about how badly the company treats them. And they stated it wasn't the first night that happened.

I convinced them that I would spot, and they begrudgingly pushed it in with me walking along side. No one ever asked if I was trained.

Oh -- and the fueling. They wouldn't fuel it that night before putting it away, because "policy" states it might leak into the hangar. But they'd be happy to pull it, fuel it, and have it ready in the am before I left.

Guess what didn't happen, and took an hour past my departure to get pulled and fueled in the am.

Premium service, my arse. (To their mediocre credit, the am manager decided not to bill me for the hangar after I complained.)

TTN?

 

[eetrojan]

How many towered, delta class airports restrict entry and exit via an FBO? Is that common?

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

TTN?

Just might have been MMU.

 

[denverpilot]

How many towered, delta class airports restrict entry and exit via an FBO? Is that common?

Exit usually isn't a problem. Entry is the kicker. And of course your aircraft is then trapped.

 

[denverpilot]

By the way, it doesn't have to be a Delta. KGXY has a coded keypad gate to gain access to the ramp but won't give out the code to transients or simply come up with a code for that and change it from time to time.

They're all about stopping terrorism or whatever up there. LOL. It's Greeley.

Therefore if you fly into there in the evening and the FBO closes, you'll pay a rather ridiculous fee to have someone come back and open the gate for you to leave.

Once they started this, I simply started telling family I'll meet them over at KFNL. The dinner places we usually go out to are over that direction anyway. KGXY gets not a single dollar from me anymore.

Might go there for breakfast at the restaurant. Won't be buying fuel. Not even sure I'll bother with the restaurant but that seems punitive to the wrong people.

Always did before they went all "sec-ur-I-tah" Eric Cartman style.

But at least they still put their fees on a board right next to the desk.

I'm sure they have some "hut hut" up there in charge of security who thinks he's a swat team member who convinced the Board he's saving the world from terror with his secret launch codes for the gate. If I really had to get through it, I know multiple aircraft owners there who'd happily give out the code, and suffer whatever his wrath is if he bothers to review hours of video recordings after hours daily or has motion sensing software.

Stupid. It's not an airliner airport and nobody cares about it. Other than whoever changed the gate code policy.

At one of the local Deltas with airline service, the code to get back into the ramp gate is printed inside a little box on the ramp side when you exit. Memorize it and you come back in later. Nobody cares unless you walk over inside the red painted line of death and incur the wrath of the TSA and Paul Blart, Mall Cop.

 

[atbroome]

Just might have been MMU.

At least MMU has another FBO on the field besides Signature.

 

[eetrojan]

Exit usually isn't a problem. Entry is the kicker. And of course your aircraft is then trapped.

Interesting. all of the non-towered airports and towered deltas I've been to, and exited the plane, have had an unmanned gate next to the transient parking with the secret code to get back in on the secure side of the gate. However, I've only been to a few dozen airports in my short time of flying.

The two charlies I've been to have entry and exit funneled through the FBOs.

I figured that was fairly universal, but I guess not.

 

[Palmpilot]

By the way, it doesn't have to be a Delta. KGXY has a coded keypad gate to gain access to the ramp but won't give out the code to transients or simply come up with a code for that and change it from time to time.

They're all about stopping terrorism or whatever up there. LOL. It's Greeley.

Therefore if you fly into there in the evening and the FBO closes, you'll pay a rather ridiculous fee to have someone come back and open the gate for you to leave.

Once they started this, I simply started telling family I'll meet them over at KFNL. The dinner places we usually go out to are over that direction anyway. KGXY gets not a single dollar from me anymore.

Might go there for breakfast at the restaurant. Won't be buying fuel. Not even sure I'll bother with the restaurant but that seems punitive to the wrong people.

Always did before they went all "sec-ur-I-tah" Eric Cartman style.

But at least they still put their fees on a board right next to the desk.

I'm sure they have some "hut hut" up there in charge of security who thinks he's a swat team member who convinced the Board he's saving the world from terror with his secret launch codes for the gate. If I really had to get through it, I know multiple aircraft owners there who'd happily give out the code, and suffer whatever his wrath is if he bothers to review hours of video recordings after hours daily or has motion sensing software.

Stupid. It's not an airliner airport and nobody cares about it. Other than whoever changed the gate code policy.

At one of the local Deltas with airline service, the code to get back into the ramp gate is printed inside a little box on the ramp side when you exit. Memorize it and you come back in later. Nobody cares unless you walk over inside the red painted line of death and incur the wrath of the TSA and Paul Blart, Mall Cop.

That's especially annoying because although the A/FD gives the attended hours and a number to call "for attendance after hours," there's no mention of the fact that you need someone there in order to get to your aircraft after hours. At least Airnav tells you that you have to "prearrange after hours airport access with FBO's."

I wonder if the security guy thinks that terrorists would have any qualms about calling for an attendant? Or maybe he thinks that they haven't heard of ladders.

Maybe he saw all the "highly secured" Podunk airports on Airplane Repo Man and became envious!