The FAA knows no limit to their pettiness

Doc Holliday said:
There’s a lot more to that story than what is being told.

P&P has questionable reporting and writing. Perhaps they should include some facts.
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What do you think you know? As a local pilot, I've heard nothing but good about Ken. The story P&P is telling is the same story we've all heard.
 
Lowflynjack said:
What do you think you know? As a local pilot, I've heard nothing but good about Ken. The story P&P is telling is the same story we've all heard.
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This.

I know the SAT FSDO has demand for DPEs, and that demand is growing. Interesting thing is that I don’t think the FAA is making mew DPEs right now either, so it’s not like there’s going to be a backfill anytime soon.
 
OTOH - we have a DPE here in Phoenix that definitely needs to be fired.
 
TCABM said:
I know the SAT FSDO has demand for DPEs, and that demand is growing. Interesting thing is that I don’t think the FAA is making mew DPEs right now either, so it’s not like there’s going to be a backfill anytime soon.
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All of which is irrelevant as to whether or not a DPE is retained or fired if cause exists.
 
TCABM said:
I know the SAT FSDO has demand for DPEs, and that demand is growing. Interesting thing is that I don’t think the FAA is making mew DPEs right now either, so it’s not like there’s going to be a backfill anytime soon.
There’s rumors they will replace Ken with a former FAA employee who is a true POS. I hope it’s just a rumor.
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MauleSkinner said:
All of which is irrelevant as to whether or not a DPE is retained or fired if cause exists.
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You are absolutely correct, which is why I started with quoting Jack’s post and seconding it with “This”. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

The rest of my post is extraneous, except to point out the FSDO here shot themselves in the foot as far as serving the flying community from Waco, TX east to Corpus Christi, south to the border, and west to Del Rio.
 
Doc Holliday said:
How's that?
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ok, I’ll play.

The history of both abusing the citizens they are supposed to serve is well-documented. Both have the attitude that they can do whatever works for them, and that unless you have the backing of significant capital and legal counsel, it’s not their problem that they’ve trampled on your rights.
 
Omalley1537 said:
ok, I’ll play.

The history of both abusing the citizens they are supposed to serve is well-documented. Both have the attitude that they can do whatever works for them, and that unless you have the backing of significant capital and legal counsel, it’s not their problem that they’ve trampled on your rights.
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Can you cite some sources for this?

Thanks.
 
Doc Holliday said:
There’s a lot more to that story than what is being told.

P&P has questionable reporting and writing. Perhaps they should include some facts.
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If you know more about the story then please tell us. Your content clearly suggests you do.
 
Lndwarrior said:
YOU asked the question...
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On Internet forums it’s not uncommon to find people who will rant about how unjust and unfair an agency such as the FAA is, but when pressed we typically find out the individual making such claims has never, ever had one interaction with the agency.

I started flying back in the mid 70’s and have seen major changes in how the FAA conducts their operation. We now have the Pilot’s Bill of Rights, Basic Med, Compliance Philosophy and more.

I’ve also had dealings with foreign CAA’s and can state hands down, the FAA is far easier to deal with as an end user. EASA, Transport Canada, JCAB, CAAC among others can be a real handful to deal with, even worse dealing with smaller country CAA’s.
 
Doc Holliday said:
On Internet forums it’s not uncommon to find people who will rant about how unjust and unfair an agency such as the FAA is, but when pressed we typically find out the individual making such claims has never, ever had one interaction with the agency.

I started flying back in the mid 70’s and have seen major changes in how the FAA conducts their operation. We now have the Pilot’s Bill of Rights, Basic Med, Compliance Philosophy and more.

I’ve also had dealings with foreign CAA’s and can state hands down, the FAA is far easier to deal with as an end user. EASA, Transport Canada, JCAB, CAAC among others can be a real handful to deal with, even worse dealing with smaller country CAA’s.
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Since we are on a public search indexed forum I will not answer the question. I can honestly say I have direct personal experience on these issues. You sound like a fair enough person and I bet all the people you worked with at the FAA are the same. That is great but it’s also anecdotal. I have some anecdotal experience that is the opposite of yours.

I will make no comment on how frequent, significant or damaging the events are... I only know about my experience. It has been quite eye opening. So yeah. If an inspector gets the notion they can do just about anything they want to and get away with it...


Edit: I have been contributing here for a while I bet you can find posts from me back when I was naive and saw things like you do. I wish I was still naive.
 
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Doc Holliday said:
On Internet forums it’s not uncommon to find people who will rant about how unjust and unfair an agency such as the FAA is, but when pressed we typically find out the individual making such claims has never, ever had one interaction with the agency.

I started flying back in the mid 70’s and have seen major changes in how the FAA conducts their operation. We now have the Pilot’s Bill of Rights, Basic Med, Compliance Philosophy and more.

I’ve also had dealings with foreign CAA’s and can state hands down, the FAA is far easier to deal with as an end user. EASA, Transport Canada, JCAB, CAAC among others can be a real handful to deal with, even worse dealing with smaller country CAA’s.
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It is not a matter of how fair or unfair an agency attempts to be. It’s a matter of fact that you have no legal recourse to ensure that they are fair to you. You do not have a presumption of innocence. You do not have the right to a trial by jury, or even an impartial judge.
You often grind this axe about how fair the Faa is, but that is irrelevant. All the things you mention are still relying on “fairness” that you have to hope for, by a bureaucrat that you can take no action against no matter the damage they do to you. If you don’t get that fairness, you have have to spend thousands to reverse even the silliest decision, and you are unable to exercise your privileges in the meanwhile.

It doesn’t matter if most rulings are fair. They still have the power to do unfair things to you. Ignoring that fact is to your own detriment.
 
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So if I'm understanding this...a DPE takes the job, knowing they can be terminated at anytime for any reason or without cause...and this guy had that happen...?

What's the problem? Sounds like the he was hit by the rules he agreed to play under.

I bet if all the DPEs just quit or went on strike to force reform, they'd get it. BUT, that ain't gonna happen!
 
Salty said:
It is not a matter of how fair or unfair an agency attempts to be. It’s a matter of fact that you have no legal recourse to ensure that they are fair to you. You do not have a presumption of innocence. You do not have the right to a trial by jury, or even an impartial judge.
You often grind this axe about how fair the Faa is, but that is irrelevant. All the things you mention are still relying on “fairness” that you have to hope for, by a bureaucrat that you can take no action against no matter the damage they do to you. If you don’t get that fairness, you have have to spend thousands to reverse even the silliest decision, and you are unable to exercise your privileges in the meanwhile.

It doesn’t matter if most rulings are fair. They still have the power to do unfair things to you. Ignoring that fact is to your own detriment.
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So have you ever had any dealings with the FAA?
 
Doc Holliday said:
So have you ever had any dealings with the FAA?
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Yes. And if they unfairly decide to remove your privilege it’s gone immediately, until YOU figure out how and pay to get it corrected. There is no due process. There is no presumption of innocence. If the person that made the incorrect ruling did it out of malice, or evil intent, there is exactly nothing you can do about it.

In addition, one does not need personal experience to understand the rules. They are well documented.

You’re argument is that it’s awesome to be ruled by a tyrant as long as you’ve never personally met someone that’s been treated unfairly.
 
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I think it is interesting that we're talking about "The FAA" as if some huge bureaucracy is involved in this decision. This decision was likely made by a very small number of individuals - I'd guess there was one decider. Why did s/he make that decision is the question in my mind?
 
Salty said:
Yes.
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So can you describe the interaction?


Salty said:
And if they unfairly decide to remove your privilege it’s gone immediately, until YOU figure out how and pay to get it corrected. There is no due process. There is no presumption of innocence. One does not need personal experience to understand the rules. They are well documented. I do not need to drive drunk to know what will happen to me if I do, either.
.
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You're now trying to argue a hypothetical. Am I correct to assume this happened to you?

Salty said:
You’re argument is that it’s awesome to be ruled by a tyrant as long as you’ve never personally met someone that’s been treated unfairly.
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Actually it's not.

My contention is people read internet forums and such and base their conclusions usually on wild inaccurate stories and often myths. Take the Bob Hoover story as an example. Most people citing that reference often know very little of the actual story but rely on internet accounts by others who also know little about it. Was what happened right? Obviously not, but in the many years since then much has been done to make sure such a thing doesn't happen again.

You complain of no due process, which again, simply isn't true.

You are having difficulty understanding administrative law versus civil law apparently.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So can you describe the interaction?




You're now trying to argue a hypothetical. Am I correct to assume this happened to you?



Actually it's not.

My contention is people read internet forums and such and base their conclusions usually on wild inaccurate stories and often myths. Take the Bob Hoover story as an example. Most people citing that reference often know very little of the actual story but rely on internet accounts by others who also know little about it. Was what happened right? Obviously not, but in the many years since then much has been done to make sure such a thing doesn't happen again.

You complain of no due process, which again, simply isn't true.

You are having difficulty understanding administrative law versus civil law apparently.
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There is a real world out there you refuse to accept.
 
I like to look at the facts.
In this case - what do we know?

He attended a seminar
He didn’t present, he didn’t speak; he was a guest
During the seminar someone talked about water skiing - skimming your tires above the water while flying
FAA said water skiing bad
He didn’t speak up
FAA fired him
The person taking about waterskiing was also connected to the FAA - he has not been punished.

With these facts some see this to be odd, unfair, and uncalled for.

Does anyone else have additional facts?
 
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