The FAA has been infected...

kath said:
So true. Finally, someone says something reasonable. It only took to Page 2 to get there.

Yes, I get ****ed off by words like "airman" as being exclusionary.
No, I don't let such words ruin my experience in aviation.
Yes, I think the FAA has more important changes it could make.
But yes, I appreciate an organization like the FAA making the effort. It does speak. Maybe not to you, but to others.
No, I don't think the change will solve anything in this generation. But it might help the next one.
Changing the way you use language is one of the easiest things a person can do to make a big difference to another person in a positive way. There are lots of problems in the world that are hard. Language is low-hanging fruit.
Yes, organizations like the 99's and WIA are of value. Because: you know that feeling of belonging and being understood by your peers? Male aviators have already got it, and we deserve it sometimes too.
Yes, men can come to 99's events.
Yes, I will get ****ed off if you refer to me as a "girl". (A girl is a child.)
No, I don't mind being asked about these things. In fact, I vastly prefer it to having people (especially a roomful of men) just assume they know.
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Very, very well articulated.

As others have said, my only gripe with changing terms is when it's done in nonsensical, superfluous, and/or blatantly patronizing ways. And even then, it's not like it actively affects my day-to-day besides being mildly annoying at times. It's the melodramatic outrage from either side about said low-hanging fruit, that cheapens the legitimate core issues. All this demeaning nonsense like "Oooh so you want me to call you a huWOMAN now?!?!!?" only makes people sound like petulant morons. Words mean things. If you're gonna be a condescending smartass about language, it helps to have a working knowledge of the etymology you're ridiculing.

Think about it, we don't even need to call them NOTAMs, as the need for these brevity codes is loooong since obsolete. Teletype is gone. If we're changing things, just call it a Flight Notice. Or rename it to NOTAC; Notice to Air Crew. Or make 'notam' a word in itself if people are really THAT attached to those two specific syllables. Whatever. People can't remember what these acronyms/brevity codes stand for half the time anyway, until someone has an opinion and must be proven wrong at all costs.

I'm also glad to see the FAA making an effort, even if the execution is somewhat lackluster IMHO. It's easy to be biased against, or ignorant to inclusivity when you're a man in a field that still happens to be dominated by men. That doesn't mean that those who want to adapt the vernacular are "entitled woke snowflakes(god, i hate that term)" that demand to be coddled. Notice that you don't see this phenomenon in woman-dominated fields. Can't imagine female restaurant staff getting ****y that men prefer to be called waiters instead of waitresses. (yes, I'm aware that the term "waiter" came first in the 1600s with "waitress" coming later in the 1800s. But it serves my point that so many gendered titles are historically male-dominated, that it's hard to find a proper example of the inverse).

Do I still use gendered language everyday? Yes, of course. It's the language I know, embedded into the trillions of neural pathways in my brain. But if someone approaches me with a reasonable cause to change a word or phrase I use, I'll at least make an effort. Amazing how angry people get when asked to make a tiny, completely inconsequential change to make others' days just a little nicer. Language is continuously evolving, which is why we aren't still communicating solely via grunts and screams. (For the most part anyway)
 
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Sure. Yeah, right. Words mean something.

Actions speak much much louder

people can use all the “correct” words (du jour) you want. But it’s the person’s actions that really matter.

but continue to focus on style over substance
 
drummer4468 said:
Very, very well articulated.

As others have said, my only gripe with changing terms is when it's done in nonsensical, superfluous, and/or blatantly patronizing ways. And even then, it's not like it actively affects my day-to-day besides being mildly annoying at times. It's the melodramatic outrage from either side about said low-hanging fruit, that cheapens the legitimate core issues. All this demeaning nonsense like "Oooh so you want me to call you a huWOMAN now?!?!!?" only makes people sound like petulant morons. Words mean things. If you're gonna be a condescending smartass about language, it helps to have a working knowledge of the etymology you're ridiculing.

Think about it, we don't even need to call them NOTAMs, as the need for these brevity codes is loooong since obsolete. Teletype is gone. If we're changing things, just call it a Flight Notice. Or rename it to NOTAC; Notice to Air Crew. Or make 'notam' a word in itself if people are really THAT attached to those two specific syllables. Whatever. People can't remember what these acronyms/brevity codes stand for half the time anyway, until someone has an opinion and must be proven wrong at all costs.

I'm also glad to see the FAA making an effort, even if the execution is somewhat lackluster IMHO. It's easy to be biased against, or ignorant to inclusivity when you're a man in a field that still happens to be dominated by men. That doesn't mean that those who want to adapt the vernacular are "entitled woke snowflakes(god, i hate that term)" that demand to be coddled. Notice that you don't see this phenomenon in woman-dominated fields. Can't imagine female restaurant staff getting ****y that men prefer to be called waiters instead of waitresses. (yes, I'm aware that the term "waiter" came first in the 1600s with "waitress" coming later in the 1800s. But it serves my point that so many gendered titles are historically male-dominated, that it's hard to find a proper example of the inverse).

Do I still use gendered language everyday? Yes, of course. It's the language I know, embedded into the trillions of neural pathways in my brain. But if someone approaches me with a reasonable cause to change a word or phrase I use, I'll at least make an effort. Amazing how angry people get when asked to make a tiny, completely inconsequential change to make others' days just a little nicer. Language is continuously evolving, which is why we aren't still communicating solely via grunts and screams. (For the most part anyway)
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Makes me wonder if any of the men here would work at the front of a restaurant (or have their sons work at the front of a restaurant) with a name tag that says "hostess".
 
Bob Noel said:
Sure. Yeah, right. Words mean something.

Actions speak much much louder

people can use all the “correct” words (du jour) you want. But it’s the person’s actions that really matter.

but continue to focus on style over substance
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Correct, actions do matter. But not sure how I'm focusing on style over substance? Being more inclusive through language does a LOT to grease the wheels of much-needed societal/cultural change as well. Much harder to achieve true womens' equality, when so many men are still so averse to even acknowledging them via non-masculine titles.
 
Bob Noel said:
Sure. Yeah, right. Words mean something.

Actions speak much much louder

people can use all the “correct” words (du jour) you want. But it’s the person’s actions that really matter.

but continue to focus on style over substance
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Nothing prevents any individual from caring about both style AND substance.
 
By the way, before anyone gets too wrapped around the axle about the fact that we are having this discussion, remember that this is a forum where people have spent several pages debating things like whether "commercial" is a rating or not. :D
 
drummer4468 said:
Correct, actions do matter. But not sure how I'm focusing on style over substance? Being more inclusive through language does a LOT to grease the wheels of much-needed societal/cultural change as well. Much harder to achieve true womens' equality, when so many men are still so averse to even acknowledging them via non-masculine titles.
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Can I simply ask what true womens' equality is?
 
Baked Potato said:
Makes me wonder if any of the men here would work at the front of a restaurant (or have their sons work at the front of a restaurant) with a name tag that says "hostess".
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I would. Wouldn't bother me in the least. I'd have fun with it. Been called worse.

Bet you didn't expect that response.
 
SkyChaser said:
Can I simply ask what true womens' equality is?
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If you ask around, it is where women get all the climate controlled jobs, and men only get dirty manual labor jobs, only then will we be equal.

I wonder how many women are fighting to be or wanting to change the term "garbageman." I would bet that number is minuscule to non-existent. but oh, if it's a "cool" job, it's time to start a march and a movement. Well, I got a movement for their march...
 
EdFred said:
If you ask around, it is where women get all the climate controlled jobs, and men only get dirty manual labor jobs.
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It does seem that way, but then women usually complain about the pay gap between them and men and it goes on and on... I am curious what drummer thinks because I'd like to know what his arguments are based on.
 
EdFred said:
I wonder how many women are fighting to be or wanting to change the term "garbageman." I would bet that number is minuscule to non-existent. but oh, if it's a "cool" job, it's time to start a march and a movement. Well, I got a movement for their march...
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There are no more garbagemen. They are now sanitation engineers. Have been for years.
 
Bob Noel said:
idle thought: don't language like Spanish have words that are masculine and others that are feminine? is the woke mafia in Spain looking to change the Spanish language?
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No. The woke mafia is only a US (mostly coastal) thing. In fact from the Latinos and Latinas I have talked to, they HATE the Latinx title that's been foisted upon them.
 
DaleB said:
There are no more garbagemen. They are now sanitation engineers. Have been for years.
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Depends on the state, maybe. In Florida, “engineer” is a legally protected title. Unless the garbage man has an engineering degree, he can’t refer to himself that way.
 
SkyChaser said:
Can I simply ask what true womens' equality is?
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I can answer that one with one word.

Boring.

Nobody actually wants equality. Equality is boring. And that's a fact.

What we should be striving for is fairness. But that doesn't require changing the definition of words. It requires actual change of behavior. And it requires the acceptance that we are not, in fact, equal. Not even close.
 
Palmpilot said:
If my grandfather hadn't changed his name after he came over from Sweden, I would be Dick Hedberg. :D
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There’s a urologist in town whose name is Richard Chopp. And, yes, he goes by Dick…

No joke
 
SkyChaser said:
Can I simply ask what true womens' equality is?
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It is very dependent on who is answering the question and what they desire our society to look like.

You ask an equal outcome society person you get a very different answer than from an equal opportunity society individual.

You ask a fluid gender person it gets real complicated. If the meaning of woman is fluid and changes based on where someone is in their headspace from one moment to the next the word woman has no real meaning. Which means that gender male or female no longer really exists. That means there is no such thing as gender discrimination anymore. So the whole conversation is a moo point.
 
EdFred said:
I would. Wouldn't bother me in the least. I'd have fun with it. Been called worse.

Bet you didn't expect that response.
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Well, I'm not sure, but good for you :)
Would you put "hostess" on your resume?
 
Yes I’m a Richard….and I did have a female FAA executive call me Dick once or thrice. She was very embarrassed by that one…after she was repeatedly corrected…cause she did it several times. It was an lol moment for all.

I’m amused by those who are the most militant over the name changing are not the ones affected. It’s quite silly and stupid.
 
EdFred said:
I'd even dip my resume in perfume and print it on pink flowered paper if it gets me an interview.
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Does anyone take paper resumes anymore?
New idea for LinkedIn profiles I guess
 
SkyChaser said:
Can I simply ask what true womens' equality is?
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For the purpose of this discussion, let's stipulate that we'll use the simple biological definitions of "male" and "female." I realize that's an oversimplification and some will object, but it makes the math easier.

With that understood, "equality" means that a male and a female having the same mass and the same velocity also have the same momentum and the same kinetic energy.

From that relationship, all further ramifications of "equality" are simple extensions of Newtonian physics.

When velocities reach the realm of relativistic physics, this definition no longer holds as male time and female time are quite different, as will be understood by any husband who has heard his wife say "I'll be ready in a minute."
 
Turbo-Arrow-Driver said:
Apparently, NOTAMs are no longer "Notices to Airmen", but "Notices to Air Missions".
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And? Somehow I think in still going to make it through my day. I agree some things are a bit much (no, I don’t need separate boxes for gender and sex). But this isn’t one of them.
 
dtuuri said:
Well, I just think it comes down to which comes first, the chickens or the eggs/

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Funny you use that photo as the person on the right was charged today with stealing someone's luggage. They originally claimed it was a mistake, despite not having a checked bag on the flight.
 
EdFred said:
If you ask around, it is where women get all the climate controlled jobs, and men only get dirty manual labor jobs, only then will we be equal.

I wonder how many women are fighting to be or wanting to change the term "garbageman." I would bet that number is minuscule to non-existent. but oh, if it's a "cool" job, it's time to start a march and a movement. Well, I got a movement for their march...
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It’s the old tired tropes like that that are demeaning and minimizing. Broad strokes of hyperbole, with a few strawmen sprinkled in, that do nothing to further meaningful discord. Instead it only serves to keep gender equality a relatively uncomfortable thing to bring up in conversation. Saying things like women only want cushy jobs while men do the dirty work is intentionally misleading and inflammatory. What many women DO want is to not be paid peanuts to scrub toilets, wait tables, etc while a large portion of the public sits back and perpetuates the grossly misrepresented “wage gap” argument and makes comments like “well I don’t see them signing up to be a garbageMAN, handyMAN, etc, har har.” I don’t know many dudes who endeavor to be garbagemen either, but I do know plenty of women in the automotive fields, working lobster boats, driving tractor-trailers, serving in the armed forces, etc.

I think we see the push for change more in (for lack of a better term)higher skilled fields because more time, work, and money goes into earning the title.

Flip the roles around and pretend that aviation was historically female-dominated. Spend years of working your ass off to be the best “airwoman” that you, a man, can be. You’re damn proud of your accomplishments, as you should be! The feminine title kinda bugs you, but you deal with it. Then one day, they eventually adopt a more inclusive term. Great! And then all you see/hear are sarcastic crusty old heads whining about how entitled and woke you are for wanting to feel a little more welcome in your field. How does that make you feel?

SkyChaser said:
It does seem that way, but then women usually complain about the pay gap between them and men and it goes on and on... I am curious what drummer thinks because I'd like to know what his arguments are based on.
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Prefacing this by stating the obvious: I’m not speaking for every individual here. Nor is my goal to be offended on anyone’s behalf. Just stating my own opinions. But the true equality I mentioned refers more to the “between the lines” environment. Sure, we can change official terminologies. But the very existence of this thread(and millions of others like it) demonstrates that many men aren’t 100% comfortable with letting go of historically masculine titles. Some are annoyed by it, some apathetic, some get angry. Yes, slow progress is being made. But in the end all the subtle nuances tend to quietly perpetuate the divide. Yeah, we can make attempts to foster equality with more and more gender-neutral terms, but when behind every change you get blowback from the ones going ”I’m not sexist but..” and “this is ridiculous, what more do these woke crybabies want, blah blah”…. all they want is to not silently feel like an outsider or guest in a male-dominated field. And media only exacerbates it with headlines like “Woman pilot does xyz”, “Woman scientist discovers abc,” when them being a woman has zero bearing on whatever the story happens to be.
 
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dtuuri said:
Well, I just think it comes down to which comes first, the chickens or the eggs/

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OK - next serious question: how does changing a term to be less gender-specific and, to some, implying sexism, relate to transgender issues? Seems like grossly overextending the argument.

To be clear, I’m not saying I personally would have pushed for the change re NOTAM and I’m not “in favor” of people changing genders. I’m saying it’s misleading to say one thing leads to the other without backing it up. And given my lack of personal experience or authority on either topic, I’m not so arrogant as to say my uninformed opinion is the most important one.
 
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