the Dr. Killer and his TWO fatal crashes...

timwinters said:
I don't understand that statement, Ron. In the first crash he ran out of fuel. In the second he stalled the plane during the downwind to base turn and punched it in.

How are those virtual repeats? Both really dumb, yeah, but fairly distinct from each other.
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In each case he put himself in a position where he had no good options trying to get where he wanted to go despite the virtually impossibility of getting there.
 
weilke said:
Son is a college basketball player. Was all over the TV shows a couple of days ago as he is starting to talk about his experience.
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He did OK considering the circumstances.

A teen in California who managed to survive two deadly plane crashes that took the lives of his entire family spoke publicly Wednesday for the first time since his impossibly tragic tale became national news in 2011.
Former high school basketball star Austin Hatch spent the past two years re-learning how to breathe, eat, walk and live after surviving a plane crash that killed his father and stepmother in Charlevoix, Michigan that year. A 2003 crash had already killed Austin’s mother, brother, and sister.
Despite the emotional torture that has marked most of his childhood, Hatch maintained a remarkably upbeat attitude and announced two years after he was originally offered a spot on the team that he would indeed be fulfilling his dream of joining the University of Michigan’s basketball team.
 
Awfully good of the coach to honor the scholarship! Hopefully the young man will be able to play, or at least do well at school. :D
For anyone who thinks the critics on here are harsh, read the comments after the article.
Gary F said:
He did OK considering the circumstances.

A teen in California who managed to survive two deadly plane crashes that took the lives of his entire family spoke publicly Wednesday for the first time since his impossibly tragic tale became national news in 2011.
Former high school basketball star Austin Hatch spent the past two years re-learning how to breathe, eat, walk and live after surviving a plane crash that killed his father and stepmother in Charlevoix, Michigan that year. A 2003 crash had already killed Austin’s mother, brother, and sister.
Despite the emotional torture that has marked most of his childhood, Hatch maintained a remarkably upbeat attitude and announced two years after he was originally offered a spot on the team that he would indeed be fulfilling his dream of joining the University of Michigan’s basketball team.

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The pilot didn't kill himself and his passengers, the accident did. You people are all very harsh. Please remember, somebody who knows the survivors, and maybe even the survivors themselves could be reading this and other forums. Please be kind with your words.
 
Ron Levy said:
Gives you an idea of the limits on the FAA's ability to keep fools out of the sky and prevent them from killing others.
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Same as the DMV's (in)ability to keep drunks off (and bad drivers) the roads.
Unless there is strict policing of aviation (such as in Mexiko), there will be plenty of illegal flights full of drunks, students with pax, expired medicals, expired currencies and even revoked licenses.
However, it is not easy to police bad decisions or genereally dumb people. I would like to see a government that tries to institute a license to reproduce. Good luck.
The dumb will prevail! And eventually overrun. :(
 
ClimbnSink said:
Meh. Skewering dead pilots is a defense mechanism for those insecure in their mortality. Don't let it bother ya
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It's also largely class envy. Notice the title, Dr. Killer. A lot of guys are defensive about their inability to buy new, buy big, or buy what they fantasize about buying. The subtext is, doctors are rich and get planes over their skill level due to the pay grade.

It's not about the MDs, its about those that snipe at them and try to minimize their pilot skills.
 
For the record, I chose the title because he was not only flying the plane with that nickname, but he was also a doctor. I don't know if his flying skills were better, worse, and not attempting to minimize them.

His decision making was terribly flawed and after almost biting him once, he did not listen or learn and repeated the process.

Do I envy his pay.
Hell yes (assuming he was raking it in.)

Did that have anything to do with my post. Not at all.
I would love to be able to afford a lot of things but I don't dislike those that can afford them. I do hope to join their ranks one day but I am also aware that I have way more than I deserve already.
 
CTLSi said:
It's also largely class envy. Notice the title, Dr. Killer. A lot of guys are defensive about their inability to buy new, buy big, or buy what they fantasize about buying. The subtext is, doctors are rich and get planes over their skill level due to the pay grade.

It's not about the MDs, its about those that snipe at them and try to minimize their pilot skills.
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Buying above your skill level is not "subtext", it's outright fact. One does not need to be envious of affluence in order to accurately make that observation. Nice ad hominem though.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Buying above your skill level is not "subtext", it's outright fact. One does not need to be envious of affluence in order to accurately make that observation. Nice ad hominem though.
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Please... like I said, class envy. It's fun to watch...
 
Unregistered said:
The pilot didn't kill himself and his passengers, the accident did. You people are all very harsh. Please remember, somebody who knows the survivors, and maybe even the survivors themselves could be reading this and other forums. Please be kind with your words.
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Yes, I am harsh on this one, because the pilot did indeed kill his passengers with his bad decisions. Moreover, he didn't learn from the first time he did it, and did it again -- aviation's version of a serial killer.

I don't much care if someone reading this knows the survivors or even is one of the survivors -- my purpose here is to bring to the attention of other pilots the facts of case and the lessons one should take from it, and the necessity for doing so. Saying "it wasn't the pilot, it was the accident" is deflecting responsibility from the pilot in command whose bad decisions were the reason those people died or were seriously injured. That's the reality in this business, because by its nature, aviation is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect, and pilots need to know and understand, and behave accordingly -- which this one did not.
 
Unregistered said:
The pilot didn't kill himself and his passengers, the accident did. You people are all very harsh. Please remember, somebody who knows the survivors, and maybe even the survivors themselves could be reading this and other forums. Please be kind with your words.
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Was this in the first accident.... or the second?

Everyone reading this on POA needs to understand what happened. Pretty sure the victims, the victims family, and the good Dr. would have wanted it that way. ;)

Harsh? You ain't seen nothing yet. :D
 
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Unregistered said:
The pilot didn't kill himself and his passengers, the accident did. You people are all very harsh. Please remember, somebody who knows the survivors, and maybe even the survivors themselves could be reading this and other forums. Please be kind with your words.
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I love this.... some anonymous poster who doesn't like the tone of the thread, intentionally resurrects an 8 month old thread so that it can continue?
 
steingar said:
You must be a really special snowflake to think anyone is envious of the dead guy.
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And you are an idiot to misread the post. I am talking about those that dis this guy and other MDs because they can't afford a Cirrus or other high performance aircraft. Read it again.
 
CTLSi said:
And you are an idiot to misread the post. I am talking about those that dis this guy and other MDs because they can't afford a Cirrus or other high performance aircraft. Read it again.
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Again, you must be a really special snowflake to not realize that what's being criticized is the accident pilot's inability to learn from a crash that killed people.
 
What I still haven't seen is any discussion of the fact that he had already gone missed and diverted. Where was he in terms of fuel? He may have properly planned, but due to deteriorating weather was down to his last bullet, and that's why he chose to circle below the minimums, thinking that was better than trying to go to yet another airport and running out of fuel again.
 
PPC1052 said:
What I still haven't seen is any discussion of the fact that he had already gone missed and diverted. Where was he in terms of fuel? He may have properly planned, but due to deteriorating weather was down to his last bullet, and that's why he chose to circle below the minimums, thinking that was better than trying to go to yet another airport and running out of fuel again.
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On the second crash, he was making the second attempt to land when the weather was well below published mins. On the first one, IIRC, he got himself low on gas trying to get somewhere the weather was below mins and put himself in a low-fuel box before starting the diversion. In neither case was the weather significantly worse than forecast, and that was well known well in advance -- but he pressed on anyway. Slide up this thread and you can find links to both accident reports.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well, I always wanted to fly, and in fact one of my fraternity brothers was a pilot. I had borrowed all his books and read them, but I thought it'd be a long way off. On 9/11, I remembered something about a transponder code for hijackings... Out came the books. I think I was Googling to learn more and found AOPA. Joined, started reading the forums, and learned a lot. Once I was part of that community, I couldn't wait to do more with airplanes. Got a job as a lineman at the local GA field (where I'm now based), eventually took an intro flight there, changed my life trajectory somewhat so I'd have money to fly, learned to fly, and here I am.
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This is actually how I came into aviation as well. Grew up wanting to fly (dad was an air force pilot), but drifted from it until 9/11 happened. Started flight school (the first time) in 2002.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I love this.... some anonymous poster who doesn't like the tone of the thread, intentionally resurrects an 8 month old thread so that it can continue?
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:rofl:Yeah, funny that. I always think it's interesting when people say that though, like this is some kind of memorial board. If you don't want to risk knowing what other pilots think of the accident and knowledge/skill deficiencies that may be involved, well then maybe you shouldn't be searching for it.:dunno:

Occasionally someone related or close will post some facts, that's pretty good.
 
PPC1052 said:
What I still haven't seen is any discussion of the fact that he had already gone missed and diverted. Where was he in terms of fuel? He may have properly planned, but due to deteriorating weather was down to his last bullet, and that's why he chose to circle below the minimums, thinking that was better than trying to go to yet another airport and running out of fuel again.
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Then ILS to the ground if necessary. Better to land on airport grounds, straight ahead, under control, with services, than scud running around hoping.
 
Docs are a funny breed. Some of them are Renaissance men good at all they touch, some of them while fine doctors are incapable of fairly tame activities. Problem is when the latter think themselves the former.
 
BigBadLou said:
Same as the DMV's (in)ability to keep drunks off (and bad drivers) the roads.
Unless there is strict policing of aviation (such as in Mexiko), there will be plenty of illegal flights full of drunks, students with pax, expired medicals, expired currencies and even revoked licenses.
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I've lived in Mexico for a couple years and fly down there. I don't think the policing is very strict at all. There are more people to visit to get forms stamped if you want to fly legally, but there is also tons higher disregard for the law and everything is paper based so essentially no chance of ever being caught. I've known plenty of people that work around the system simply by not participating in it. That's a mighty big loophole.
 
That applies to all men [and women] across the board, and is not limited to any profession in particular, nor does it exclude those with no profession. Everyone is human, and none are perfect.
 
Ron Levy said:
On the second crash, he was making the second attempt to land when the weather was well below published mins. On the first one, IIRC, he got himself low on gas trying to get somewhere the weather was below mins and put himself in a low-fuel box before starting the diversion. In neither case was the weather significantly worse than forecast, and that was well known well in advance -- but he pressed on anyway. Slide up this thread and you can find links to both accident reports.
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I have not gone back and completely studied the NTSB report, so some of these details may be wrong, but he initially filed to SMD to N98, but diverted to BFA due to bad weather. There is no indication in the report what the weather was predicted at the time he filed, or departed. There is no indication what the weather was observed or predicted at BFA at the time he diverted. The weather at BFA wasn't good, so he diverted again. At that time, the weather was broken at 400, overcast at 700. I don't know what other options were. Without the knowing the weather forecasts available at the time for his destinations, we can't know what he should have known.

That being said, looking at the route of flight, that's just a 2.5 hour flight in my plane (177B ), so he should still have had plenty of fuel in his Bonanza, I would think. On further examination, there is no reason to think he didn't have (or at least could not be expected to have had) plenty of fuel available.
 
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TriGear28 said:
Then ILS to the ground if necessary. Better to land on airport grounds, straight ahead, under control, with services, than scud running around hoping.
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That's got nothing to do with this accident. He was on an IFR flight plan, and was cleared for an RNAV, and was circling to land, not scud running from airport to airport. And there was no ILS approach. He just was circling below the weather minimums for circling at that airport.
 
PPC1052 said:
That's got nothing to do with this accident. He was on an IFR flight plan, and was cleared for an RNAV, and was circling to land, not scud running from airport to airport. And there was no ILS approach. He just was circling below the weather minimums for circling at that airport.
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I thought the report said he missed approach and didn't follow procedure. I haven't seen where he was shooting a circling approach. Was that the case? Point being, that was in response to a person suggesting he circled below minimums looking for a runway bc he may be running out of fuel. In which case, a precision approach to below minimums at an airport with service vehicles would certainly have been a better choice.
 
I'm just starting to study for the IFR written, but isn't the circle to land altitude at CVX for the RNAV 27 611 feet above airport? He was at 200 feet AGL.
 
TriGear28 said:
I thought the report said he missed approach and didn't follow procedure. I haven't seen where he was shooting a circling approach. Was that the case? Point being, that was in response to a person suggesting he circled below minimums looking for a runway bc he may be running out of fuel. In which case, a precision approach to below minimums at an airport with service vehicles would certainly have been a better choice.
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Let me correct myself. I thought he was circling to land with favorable winds. But that doesn't seem right. Winds were from 260, and he was cleared for the RNAV to 270. He broke out of the clouds midway down the airport at 200 feet (well below minimums for circling and for a straight in approach), and rather than going missed, turned left (to the south) I presume to enter a left down wind for 27, but then turned back to the right to avoid a water tower, and apparently kept circling back to a right down wind for 27, and then stalled/spun it in on the turn from down wind to base.

The MDA was 500 feet AGL. If he really did break out at 200 ft, as per the witness reports (which are notoriously unreliable, particularly for estimates of heights), he should have gone missed before he ever broke out of the clouds.

You are correct-- he did not go missed as he should, and he was circling below minimums for circling. I suggested that he may have made that choice because he was potentially low on fuel, and didn't have enough fuel to divert again. In retrospect, I think he should have had enough fuel such that there was no reason for this desperation move, absent him putting himself in a box that he should never have put himself in.
 
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I know witness accounts can be unreliable, but bases were reported as 200' at the time, so witnesses knew he was just at that level because he didn't re-enter the clouds.
 
I'm a little confused about his first accident. He ran out of gas but:
"The airplane was destroyed by a post impact fire and explosion. "
I wouldn't think there would be much fire with only residual fuel on board.
Also, on another board I saw that the son has recovered and is back to playing basketball.
 
rwellner98 said:
I've lived in Mexico for a couple years and fly down there. I don't think the policing is very strict at all. There are more people to visit to get forms stamped if you want to fly legally, but there is also tons higher disregard for the law and everything is paper based so essentially no chance of ever being caught. I've known plenty of people that work around the system simply by not participating in it. That's a mighty big loophole.
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until you get caught and detained for violating federal laws. At the federal level law enforcement is as serious as it gets. flying illegaly in mexico will get you some prison time at the least.
 
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