The Difference Between Them and Us.

Shepherd

Shepherd

Final Approach
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Shepherd
Took a young lady flying today. My cousin's daughter. Nice kid, very bright, a nurse. She had only ever been in a small plane once. Intro flight when she was 16, so, not an airplane person.
We had a nice time in the Cub. She didn't puke when we traversed the moguls over the Catskills, and she didn't freak out when I pulled up hard and did a chandelle to the right to avoid a student pilot who was confused about the upwind and downwind sides of the pattern.
I obviously don't have many friends who aren't in the airplane world, because the communications gap between us was almost insurmountable.
We had ice fog on the field. It was really pretty. From ground level reaching up about 10-12 feet with a bright sun shining on it. Lots of prismatic effects, which my camera absolutely did not capture.
Trying to explain ice fog. Blank stare. Try to explain why ice fog is dangerous to airplanes. Blank stare. Try to explain carburettor ice\carb heat. Blank stare.
Airspace, pattern, mountain waves, turbulence, how the controls actually work, navigation, etc, etc, etc. She would ask a question "Why do you have a broom stick thingy?" I would explain.
Nothing.
We really, REALLY are different from Them, aren't we.
I need to sign up for a course in non-aviation English as a second language.
She had a great time, and all her girl friends on Facebook think she is a crazy dare-devil and the bravest person they know.
 
Crazy how they almost rush to get it on Facebook. Teaching my daughter and she did the same. :rolleyes:

Never know Shep, maybe she'll get the flying bug.
 
I'd want to call out the Millenials and their lack of interest in such things, but I can't do that. I have friends (non-aviation) that really don't understand (and don't want to try to understand) aircraft and the forces acting on it. I try hard to indoctrinate them into the "lingo." For example, this morning, I wrote about "...the weather ("wx")", but I'm certain if I used wx again, I'd get blank stares.

One friend who is a great guy, but equates flying an airplane to flying an remote controlled airplane. I guess I'm a bit bothered as the skills were hard earned on my part. But...same forces, similar concepts... but not quite the same thing as being in an airplane. I don't press on this as none of my non-aviation friends (except one) has expressed an interest to fly with me anyway.
 
I’m curious why you would perform a chandelle vs a climbing turn?
 
You forgot the other secondary difference: age (lol).

The more I get into aviation and the more I study it to get better, the more distant I feel from “normal” people (just cuz I spend so much time on it vs other stuff).
 
denverpilot said:
Some people want to know how stuff works, other people drive the car and call AAA when it breaks.
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I know a lady just like that. I had to explain the concept of pistons and crankshafts in her car. And she's a college educated IT manager in her late fifties.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I know a lady just like that. I had to explain the concept of pistons and crankshafts in her car. And she's a college educated IT manager in her late fifties.
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Just imagine how much easier it will be too explain once she gets an electric car.
 
I work in an airplane factory, and STILL have to explain "Airplane Stuff" to people... It's kind of depressing actually.
 
If it doesn't involve staring at a "smart" phone, they're just clueless these days.
 
I have noticed this too. The current generation is more interested in the reaction they can evoke in others from their experience, than their own feelings about it.
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m curious why you would perform a chandelle vs a climbing turn?
Click to expand...
A chandelle is a climbing turn, on steroids. ;)
I wanted to be higher, and moving away from the student to insure we were not going to violate the noise abatement rule.
I was in the process of coming in high on the upwind side and I announced a left turn fly-over towards the downwind side the airport to see which way the wind was blowing, then go out a ways lose altitude and turn in to my 45 degree entry. The student called "downwind" and "pattern altitude", I'm looking out the side window, and I couldn't see him until I looked out the windshield and we were mano a mano, about half a mile apart and he was making right turns at a left turn airport.
The kid's instructor was just so .... done. You could hear it in his voice. It was hilarious. He keyed the mic so I could hear him tell the student that he was 600 ft too high, and on the wrong side of the pattern and turning the wrong way. "Please turn to your right, No! Your other right. Maintain altitude and fly away from the airport. Let's think about what you did wrong, and how are we going to fix it. sigh... Sorry Yellow Cub."
We decided to fly on to a different airport, since we were just sightseeing and didn't need to be there.
 
There are quite a few of "them" in amoung us now, as well. . .hyper focused on "safety" issues that are tiny factors in the bid picture; some abdicating to ATC and tech - not just using the tools, but worshiping them. I'm about to retire, and I want an airplane with no electrical system, no transponder, NORDO. I'll velcro an iPad to the panel in case I ever need nav help or wander into IMC. . .
 
Shepherd said:
A chandelle is a climbing turn, on steroids. ;)
Click to expand...
No, not really... a chandelle is a specific maneuver where the first 90° is varying pitch with constant bank, and the second 90° is constant pitch with varying bank. It’s suppose to end 180° just short of stall.
It’s not just a climbing turn, it’s a manuver.
That’s my huge rant when folks say the commercial is a joke. Anyone can make a climbing turn.
 
Kritchlow said:
No, not really... a chandelle is a specific maneuver where the first 90° is varying pitch with constant bank, and the second 90° is constant pitch with varying bank. It’s suppose to end 180° just short of stall.
It’s not just a climbing turn, it’s a manuver.
That’s my huge rant when folks say the commercial is a joke. Anyone can make a climbing turn.
Click to expand...

Kinda is a joke, though... when after that checkride and the CFI checkride, will you EVER need to make an "FAA Approved" Chandelle ever again? :)

And I'm not the person who came up with that, one of my instructors with over 30,000 hours says that. "Haven't needed to do one... ever."
 
denverpilot said:
Kinda is a joke, though... when after that checkride and the CFI checkride, will you EVER need to make an "FAA Approved" Chandelle ever again? :)

And I'm not the person who came up with that, one of my instructors with over 30,000 hours says that. "Haven't needed to do one... ever."
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Indeed I agree. It’s a competency demonstration maneuver, not anything you will actually do. Same can be said for lazy 8’s, 8’s on pylons, or most maneuvers learned during training. The square pattern being one exception, as that is suppose to prep you for the pattern. I always did better teaching that one while in the pattern.
 
Kritchlow said:
Indeed I agree. It’s a competency demonstration maneuver, not anything you will actually do. Same can be said for lazy 8’s, 8’s on pylons, or most maneuvers learned during training. The square pattern being one exception, as that is suppose to prep you for the pattern. I always did better teaching that one while in the pattern.
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That's his opinion of them as well. He says he can think of a number of better maneuvers and things to teach budding Commercial pilots that they WILL need, but FAA probably isn't interested. :)
 
Sac Arrow said:
I know a lady just like that. I had to explain the concept of pistons and crankshafts in her car. And she's a college educated IT manager in her late fifties.
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Just a side note. “IT Manager” doesn’t denote any knowledge whatsoever about even booting their own computer. :)

I’m not kidding.

When I took said title, the question from other staff at the time was, “So when is the lobotomy scheduled?”
 
Shepherd said:
I obviously don't have many friends who aren't in the airplane world, because the communications gap between us was almost insurmountable.
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Shep, this true of many, if not most, specialized activities. I tend to have many hobbies and enjoy learning new things. Consequently I have friends who are pilots, scuba divers, auto racers, radio hams, musicians, motorcyclists, hunters,... Each has its own language and arcane knowledge. Utter gibberish to non-disciples.

And it amazes me how often knowledge and skill in one area helps another.

Variety is the spice of life, they say.
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m curious why you would perform a chandelle vs a climbing turn?
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He's an old fighter jock, it's ingrained in them lol. Hey he flew Super Sabres in 'Nam, give Shep slack man. He earned the right to do chandelles or whatever else he wants to do. Besides a chandelle is a climbing turn right, kinda? Imagine doing them in an Air Force jet, they be climbing.
 
Last edited:
455 Bravo Uniform said:
You forgot the other secondary difference: age (lol).

The more I get into aviation and the more I study it to get better, the more distant I feel from “normal” people (just cuz I spend so much time on it vs other stuff).
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Like the sign says:

22283_2.jpg
 
mscard88 said:
He's an old fighter jock, it's ingrained in them lol. Hey he flew Super Sabres in 'Nam, give Shep slack man. He earned the right to do chandelles or whatever else he wants to do. Besides a chandelle is a climbing turn right?
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Ahh... sort of, but not really.
If it was a climbing right turn who couldn’t do such a thing?
 
Kritchlow said:
Ahh... sort of, but not really.
If it was a climbing right turn who couldn’t do such a thing?
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From Chapter 9 Performance Maneuvers (https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...iation/airplane_handbook/media/11_afh_ch9.pdf)

Chandelle
A chandelle is a maximum performance, 180° climbing turn
that begins from approximately straight-and-level flight
and concludes with the airplane in a wings-level, nose-high
attitude just above stall speed.
[Figure 9-3]
The goal is
to gain the most altitude possible for a given bank angle
and power setting; however, the standard used to judge
the maneuver is not the amount of altitude gained, but by
the pilot’s proficiency as it pertains to maximizing climb
performance for the power and bank selected, as well as the
skill demonstrated
 
ironnerd said:
I work in an airplane factory, and STILL have to explain "Airplane Stuff" to people... It's kind of depressing actually.
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I don't find it surprising in the least. People as a working collective don't really care what they do, which is a variation of "the world needs ditch diggers too". They're just collecting that paycheck because it pays the rent (and even that's specious these days) and it's close to where they want to live. Nothing wrong with that, as long as they don't go home to bury their dispassion in alcohol and beat their kids that is. Lot of that in American working life too.

If they had the money to attain what I call the "position of FU" they'd be nowhere near said job. They certainly wouldn't have you as an acquaintance trying to clue them into what they don't give a flock about in the first place. I tell my coworkers that much, after telling them "with all due respect" of course. I'm sure that won't keep me from getting airline recommendation letters when the time comes LOL :D. TC

BL, you can't expect everybody to all do what they enjoy for a living. Statistically impossible. A land of disheartened laborers working for the weekend is probably a bit morose way of putting it, but I still think is an accurate description of what you're struggling to understand about your co-workers. It's rampant though.
 
mscard88 said:
From Chapter 9 Performance Maneuvers (https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...iation/airplane_handbook/media/11_afh_ch9.pdf)

Chandelle
A chandelle is a maximum performance, 180° climbing turn
that begins from approximately straight-and-level flight
and concludes with the airplane in a wings-level, nose-high
attitude just above stall speed.
[Figure 9-3]
The goal is
to gain the most altitude possible for a given bank angle
and power setting; however, the standard used to judge
the maneuver is not the amount of altitude gained, but by
the pilot’s proficiency as it pertains to maximizing climb
performance for the power and bank selected, as well as the
skill demonstrated
Click to expand...
Okay... but you you know a chandelle is not an everyday maneuver. Nobody in the history of aviation has ever said to themselves “okay I have Traffic. I’m going to turn 180°, but the first 90 I can vary the pitch but can’t change the bank. The second 90 I can’t change pitch but I can vary my bank.
That would be silly. That’s a demonstration description, not a practical one.
In reality you see someone and it’s more, let’s turn or climb and get the eff out of this guy’s path.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay... but you you know a chandelle is not an everyday maneuver. Nobody in the history of aviation has ever said to themselves “okay I have Traffic. I’m going to turn 180°, but the first 90 I can vary the pitch but can’t change the bank. The second 90 I can’t change pitch but I can vary my bank.
That would be silly. That’s a demonstration description, not a practical one.
In reality you see someone and it’s more, let’s turn or climb and get the eff out of this guy’s path.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter though, you said it wasn't a climbing turn maneuver. ;):D
 
The whole point of the commercial maneuvers is to demonstrate mastery and finesse of the aircraft. Flying the plane instead of the plane flying you. I’m sure there are some practical applications but the whole point of them is not practicality.
 
Shepherd said:
"Please turn to your right, No! Your other right. Maintain altitude and fly away from the airport. Let's think about what you did wrong, and how are we going to fix it. sigh... Sorry Yellow Cub."
We decided to fly on to a different airport, since we were just sightseeing and didn't need to be there.
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LOL! Sounds like you need to equip the Cub with a .50 cal!

Nicest thing I ever heard from my CFI: “Well, at least you’ve never tried to kill me!” Instructors must lead exciting lives.
 
jordane93 said:
The whole point of the commercial maneuvers is to demonstrate mastery and finesse of the aircraft. Flying the plane instead of the plane flying you. I’m sure there are some practical applications but the whole point of them is not practicality.
Click to expand...

I agree with that description. I never did find the point of 10,000 foot loops in the -38. We do 'em though, and I love every minute of it. We do chandelles in the T-6, but on the 38 we only do pitchbacks; with chandelles we'd be at 30,000 at the end of it..... or 9,000 above the top of the MOA :D
 
Half Fast said:
LOL! Sounds like you need to equip the Cub with a .50 cal!

Nicest thing I ever heard from my CFI: “Well, at least you’ve never tried to kill me!” Instructors must lead exciting lives.
Click to expand...

It gets exciting at times, especially trying to teach landings. :eek:
 
Half Fast said:
Shep, this true of many, if not most, specialized activities. I tend to have many hobbies and enjoy learning new things. Consequently I have friends who are pilots, scuba divers, auto racers, radio hams, musicians, motorcyclists, hunters,... Each has its own language and arcane knowledge. Utter gibberish to non-disciples.

And it amazes me how often knowledge and skill in one area helps another.

Variety is the spice of life, they say.
Click to expand...

A few days ago I was dealing with an experienced roofer who also used to be an adjuster for Allstate. He was pointing out all kinds of things I didn't know about adjusting, roof damage, things to look for damage wise, how the process goes, and tips and tricks which I hadn't heard of (I've been on a roof like 3 times in my life). I showed him a sectional for DFW while I was checking my airspace and he was absolutely transfixed. I walked him through the chart and what everything meant, showed him a few different apps, showed him how to call up AWOS and LiveATC at different airports, and answered a few questions about situations he'd been in on airliners.

It was a surprisingly positive and refreshing experience to be able to talk to someone so interested in aviation. This morning I flew a drone appointment and the homeowner got her kid out from the Xbox to see. The kid thought it was neat but you could just tell that he was wanting to go back inside. I did the exact same thing as a kid/teen and I laughed it off. Neat but it's not nearly as fun to watch it as it is to fly it.
 
Mine used to have an exclusion for experimental aircraft. I should see if that’s still the case before I climb into Fast Eddie’s Sky Arrow again....
 
jordane93 said:
The whole point of the commercial maneuvers is to demonstrate mastery and finesse of the aircraft. Flying the plane instead of the plane flying you. I’m sure there are some practical applications but the whole point of them is not practicality.
Click to expand...
Written like Ernest Hemingway.
 
Personal weirdness, but I practice chandelles, wingovers and other high performance maneuvers in every plane I fly.
OK "high performance" might be an oxymoron when referring to a J3 Cub.
But. If you need to be someplace higher, father away, and going in a different direction, a chandelle is a good way to do it.
 
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