The Clock for Timed Turns

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
I'm watching an IR Training video and the discussion is regarding failed HI and AI and using timing to make turns at Standard Rate. The problem is that the video example uses a 90* turn (30 seconds) and then says to begin rollout at the 30s mark.

I'm thinking:
1) When was the timing started? If you BEGIN the rollout at the 30s mark shouldn't you have started the clock only when reaching the correct bank angle?
2) What's the norm for starting and stopping the clock? Roll-in or once established? When is the rollout done - do you lead the clock to allow for roll-out?
 
One second isn't going to make a big difference. Start the clock then turn, or start the turn, then the clock. Stop the turn at 30 seconds. Make additional correction as necessary.
 
5-T's

TURN - TIME - Twist - Throttle - Talk.

My right hand is on the timer start button, allowing me to press as I roll into the turn.

5-T's

Stopping the turn, my practice has been rolling level just before the time elapses. Bank angle on standard rate turn isn't so huge that you go past the desired heading.

Wings Level. 5-T's
 
AggieMike88 said:
5-T's

TURN - TIME - Twist - Throttle - Talk.

My right hand is on the timer start button, allowing me to press as I roll into the turn.

5-T's

Stopping the turn, my practice has been rolling level just before the time elapses. Bank angle on standard rate turn isn't so huge that you go past the desired heading.

Wings Level. 5-T's
Click to expand...
I was taught the other way, Time - Turn.

Why is your way the right way and mine not?
 
EdFred said:
I was taught the other way, Time - Turn.

Why is your way the right way and mine not?
Click to expand...
Because it's your way.


In all seriousness, I was taught his way as well, but in reality, it doesn't matter much as long as you are consistent with whatever method you use.
 
Because I don't care about picked nits?
 
EdFred said:
One second isn't going to make a big difference. Start the clock then turn, or start the turn, then the clock. Stop the turn at 30 seconds. Make additional correction as necessary.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Quick aside...

...this was one place I found an analog clock with a second hand made sense over a digital display - easier to spot trends, i.e. getting ahead of, or behind the turn, especially when timing 180º or 360º turns
 
Well, you emphasized it was turn first. I'm wondering why that's the case over my initial suggestion of it doesn't really matter whether you turn/time or time/turn.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm watching an IR Training video and the discussion is regarding failed HI and AI and using timing to make turns at Standard Rate. The problem is that the video example uses a 90* turn (30 seconds) and then says to begin rollout at the 30s mark.

I'm thinking:
1) When was the timing started? If you BEGIN the rollout at the 30s mark shouldn't you have started the clock only when reaching the correct bank angle?
2) What's the norm for starting and stopping the clock? Roll-in or once established? When is the rollout done - do you lead the clock to allow for roll-out?
Click to expand...

I roll in on the mark, start rolling out 2 seconds before the mark, and adjust course either to the compass or CDI once level. Dead nuts accuracy to the degree really isn't necessary because you correct for it on each tracking leg.
 
FastEddieB said:
Agreed.

Quick aside...

...this was one place I found an analog clock with a second hand made sense over a digital display - easier to spot trends, i.e. getting ahead of, or behind the turn, especially when timing 180º or 360º turns
Click to expand...

Plus it's standard rate, and you have a bouncing compass, 3 degrees is well inside the margin of error anyway.
 
AggieMike88 said:
5-T's

TURN - TIME - Twist - Throttle - Talk.

My right hand is on the timer start button, allowing me to press as I roll into the turn.

5-T's

Stopping the turn, my practice has been rolling level just before the time elapses. Bank angle on standard rate turn isn't so huge that you go past the desired heading.

Wings Level. 5-T's
Click to expand...

I never start and stop timers, I just note the hands and add what I need unless I'm on a timed approach. For holding turns and such, no.
 
EdFred said:
Well, you emphasized it was turn first. I'm wondering why that's the case over my initial suggestion of it doesn't really matter whether you turn/time or time/turn.
Click to expand...

Emphasis was to bring to the forebrain the 5-T's and that timing and turning were contained within. Dealer's choice as to which to do first.
 
FastEddieB said:
...this was one place I found an analog clock with a second hand made sense over a digital display - easier to spot trends, i.e. getting ahead of, or behind the turn, especially when timing 180º or 360º turns
Click to expand...

Yup, note the second hand position at the start of the turn then just keep the little airplane thingy's wing on the mark until the second hand gets to be where it needs to be. Works every time and after it's done enough times the standard rate turn is pretty much automatic.
 
It's not going to be perfect anyway, don't sweat it, roll out and than fine tune off your compass.
 
Geez dude asks a simple question and gets this. EVERY TIME! Crazy. :goofy:
 
Jaybird180 said:
If you BEGIN the rollout at the 30s mark shouldn't you have started the clock only when reaching the correct bank angle?
Click to expand...

No, you begin timing when you begin to roll. During those few seconds of roll there is little heading change which you then compensate for anyway at the end of 30 seconds by rolling out after timing stops.

dtuuri
 
It doesn't matter how you order it, as long as you're consistent.

Start time at start of roll-in, end it at start of roll-out works. So does starting time at end of roll-in and ending it at end of roll-out, or starting the next timer (e.g., for procedure turns or holds).

As an alternative (or backup), you can estimate the compass error and roll out as you approach the corrected heading. The correction is substantial at mid latitudes. Timed turns are significantly more accurate.
 
Or just do this.

PAI700.gif



I wouldn't own a IFR aircraft without one, price to benefit makes it a no brainer.
 
James331 said:
Or just do this.

PAI700.gif



I wouldn't own a IFR aircraft without one, price to benefit makes it a no brainer.
Click to expand...

They are nice, but still have the typical compass swing/acceleration errors. I like them them because they use the same directional thought process as a vertical card DG. With an old AN gyro I prefer a standard compass. I don't mind steering to a compass using tiller or wheel rules, but I want the rules to be common on all the equipment in play at any given time.
 
Henning said:
They are nice, but still have the typical compass swing/acceleration errors. I like them them because they use the same directional thought process as a vertical card DG. With an old AN gyro I prefer a standard compass. I don't mind steering to a compass using tiller or wheel rules, but I want the rules to be common on all the equipment in play at any given time.
Click to expand...

A little, but still seems like a lot less error compared to a whiskey compass.
 
James331 said:
A little, but still seems like a lot less error compared to a whiskey compass.
Click to expand...

Oh for sure, there is significant damping, plus you don't have the angular lubber line from the dip that adds margin of error. But even so, once stable in the turn, the lead and lag effects will be the same for a given latitude regardless type of magnetic compass.
 
BigBadLou said:
You can't own/fly a VFR aircraft without one, it is on the MEL.
Click to expand...
It doesn't have to a vertical card compass. It just has to be a stand-alone magnetic compass, like most of them are.
 
MAKG1 said:
Start time at start of roll-in, end it at start of roll-out works. So does starting time at end of roll-in and ending it at end of roll-out...
Click to expand...


"ending it at end of roll-out"? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

dtuuri
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I think context escaped him there :lol:
Click to expand...

It was a joke. Right over people's heads. :D
There is no functional difference btw whisky and vertical card compass. Same lead, lag, accel and decel errors.
Is the vertical card more intuitive to read? Sure.
Does it have any other improvements over a whiskey compass? No.
just my $0.02.
 
A joke? Sure it was:)

Some of the errors are lessened due to the lack of pendulum action.
 
dtuuri said:
"ending it at end of roll-out"? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

dtuuri
Click to expand...

No. You frequently have to daisy-chain timings. When do you start the next one?

Synchronizing to the end of an action is something us musicians do on a second to second basis. It's not that hard if you always do it the same way. For us spam can drivers, 15 deg bank, roll out over 5 sec.
 
MAKG1 said:
No. You frequently have to daisy-chain timings. When do you start the next one?
Click to expand...
At the same instant you stop the last one. Start rolling out at that same instant. I wouldn't ask a student to try to time the rollout to be wings level at the end of the prescribed time interval. That would introduce an element of guessing and require extra mental effort.

MAKG1 said:
Synchronizing to the end of an action is something us musicians do on a second to second basis. It's not that hard if you always do it the same way. For us spam can drivers, 15 deg bank, roll out over 5 sec.
Click to expand...
I like to roller skate to music, which I can do fairly well btw. Reading it and playing it goes far beyond my skill level, so I won't ask a student to go there. :)

dtuuri
 
BigBadLou said:
It was a joke. Right over people's heads. :D
There is no functional difference btw whisky and vertical card compass. Same lead, lag, accel and decel errors.
Is the vertical card more intuitive to read? Sure.
Does it have any other improvements over a whiskey compass? No.
just my $0.02.
Click to expand...

A compass card floating in a liquid has "dip" that is not present with a vertical card. Dip causes acceleration error and northerly turning error.

Bob Gardner
 
I learned, and later taught, timed turns.

They are fundamental in Patterns A & B.

In my opinion, it's highly unlikely one would ever need to do one in real life.

My take is they were taught as an exercise to get a pilot used to including a clock in his or her scan - a skill which is valuable later in holding patterns and timed approaches.
 
FastEddieB said:
I learned, and later taught, timed turns.

They are fundamental in Patterns A & B.

In my opinion, it's highly unlikely one would ever need to do one in real life.

My take is they were taught as an exercise to get a pilot used to including a clock in his or her scan - a skill which is valuable later in holding patterns and timed approaches.
Click to expand...

Highly unlikely, but a very useful skill when you DO need it...don't ask me how I know. :rolleyes:
 
MAKG1 said:
No. You frequently have to daisy-chain timings. When do you start the next one?

Synchronizing to the end of an action is something us musicians do on a second to second basis. It's not that hard if you always do it the same way. For us spam can drivers, 15 deg bank, roll out over 5 sec.
Click to expand...

5 seconds for 15° roll?:confused:
 
MAKG1 said:
The point is consistency, not speed. Yes, you can do it a lot faster.
Click to expand...

I would think at that slow you would have to adjust the timing.:lol: I'm typically in and out of a standard rate turn closer to 1 second than 2.
 
For starters, for most SEL airplanes it's 17* bank for standard rate turns. There is no established roll rate to get into and out of full bank, hence the origin of my question. If it takes 5 seconds to get to full bank, and it don't start the clock until I reach 17*, I've deviated from heading by an appreciable amount.

OTOH, if I SNAP it over to the appropriate bank angle then the timing and heading change is measurably more precise. But I don't think this is the way it should be done (except when on my bike at the track).
 
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