The "cheap" Tesla is finally out...

James331 said:
For the self driving cars, not sure how many of you use computers or a autopilot, but I have about ZERO trust in a FULLY self driving car.

I would treat a Tesla autopilot the same as I would a planes autopilot.
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I take it you won’t be Ubering it in an autonomous air taxi in the future then???

 
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Velocity173 said:
I take it you won’t be Ubering it in an autonomous air taxi in the future then???

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Gerhardt said:
You're 100% correct, except it will be much sooner than 15 years.

This is a tsunami of a problem coming for the auto and insurance industries. The massive expansion of vehicles we've seen on the road over the last several decades will reverse sharply. Many of these vehicles won't be sitting in a garage during the day. A number of them will be out earning $ for uber/lyft. And many families won't need 2, 3, 4 vehicles. Mom and dad go to work, the car drives home on its own and takes the kids to school, then if they don't want it driving for uber it can take itself back to dad's work and wait for him to leave for the day.

It's a big problem for insurers because right now auto insurance is their bread and butter, accounting for about 70% of the money coming in the door. Fewer cars mean fewer policies. Safer (driverless) cars means reduced claims, hence reduced premium dollars. Many insurers aren't paying attention and I think we'll see some big names that will cease to exist when the time comes. Some major players out there are already taking action in preparation.
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That may be the utopian vision but many of us will not be playing. When the cities are so dense that parking fees (and toll roads, gouging license fees and "just because" fees that we have here in WA) then I'm out. My wallet has already snapped shut on every business in the Seattle area because they are going out of their way to make it both inconvenient and expensive to drive there.

I'm sure I sound like a curmudgeon and that may be a fair assessment, so I'll recast this in terms that readers here may appreciate: self flying airplanes are on the way . They will make pilots a thing of the past. I know this because my employer is committed to making this true. After all, there's no reason to have pilots if a computer can do the job cheaper and easier.
How will you feel when the uberplanes make it so it's "dumb" to fly yourself around when you can cheaply get in back of some automated junk and get to your destination? And the Uber types bring the money to your airport and push out the mere mortals with Pipers?
If you're okay getting your $100 waffles that way, so be it.
Me, I love to fly. I don't get in a plane to get from A to B. I fly to see, smell, hear, and feel aviation.

I am the same way with my car. One key. In my pocket.
 
SCCutler said:
But, I think the decision to close a bunch of stores is more likely being done to conserve capital. Could be wrong...
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Undoubtedly, and I think they may have even said as much yesterday. But certainly, they were spending a lot of money to even have the right to open up their stores in the first place in many states. I think this is just their realization that it's more important to get the $35K car out and keep it at that price point than to waste the money chasing these state-by-state laws, which they were doing by both legislative and judicial means, and was going to be a LONG effort.

BrianNC said:
Speaking of that, what kind of heat do these cars have? I assume some kind of electric heat?
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Yes. All the stuff that would be run off accessory belts is electric too. Electric power steering pump, electric AC compressor, etc...

Some EVs have purely resistive heating, some also have a heat pump which is more efficient in spring/fall chilly weather.

It's also much more common for EVs to have heated steering wheels and all seats heated. Heating the cabin takes up a lot of energy, heating the people takes up much less. ;) I don't have a heated wheel in the Volt nor the i3, but on the Fusion Energi I did - So on my way *to* work, when the cabin was preheated using the house power, I didn't run the heater at all, just the seat and wheel heaters, and was very comfortable. I would heat the cabin for the trip home.

One bonus of electric heat: You don't have to wait for the engine to warm up to get heat. It starts blowing hot air pretty quickly.

jesse said:
Heat is a by far easier problem to solve with an ICE. The ice has tons of excess heat that would otherwise be wasted. Any heat generated in an electric car will make for a noticeable range decrease, as heat takes watts, and a fair quantity. By the time you account for the battery performance losses and the heating losses you’re talking a range decrease in winter operations, realistically, around 40 percent, maybe more.
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Yup. The EV is susceptible to not only the things that make all cars get worse mileage in winter (more aerodynamic drag, higher rolling resistance, etc) but also that it isn't wasting 70% of the energy put into it all year long. ;) The EV needs a bunch of power to warm the cabin, and the cold also reduces battery performance. It really depends on the car how much you lose, though. A low-range plug-in hybrid may lose 50% if you heat the cabin off the battery, whereas a long-range EV tends to do a lot better. A Tesla is still going to lose 25-40% on a cold day if you heat the cabin solely off the battery.

If you can leave the car plugged in the night before, then yeah it’ll be pre-heated like Kent claims, but the caveat is plugging it in.
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That's just something you do with an EV. It's what you do instead of going to the gas station. The big problem with EVs is going to be people who live in high-density city housing that requires them to park on the street. They're the ones who will have to go to the Supercharger every week or two and just sit there.

Really, the best thing for the future would be if more workplaces put in cheap chargers. Charging during the day, when solar energy is available (whether it's local panels or utility provided) is better for the power plants and the environment and would help flatten the duck curve somewhat. And you're at work for hours anyway, so you don't need an expensive fast charger there.

Buying gas at a pump is 100X less cold exposure then all these Tesla guys hiking it half a mile in the cold to the coffee shop while their battery charges so that they can sit there for 90 minutes and tell the internet how much sweeter their car is.
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:rofl:

The Tesla chargers, FWIW, do seem to be better placed than the non-Tesla ones IME. When I was charging the i3, I'd walk to go to a different grocery store instead of the Whole Foods where the charger was. Not my crowd. ;)

These sort of lies will only hold the cars back. I respect the technology and the potential but I have little patience for the negatives being painted as if they’re wonderful features.
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I'm not "lying" - I really do love electric driving. Like anything else, it has its advantages and disadvantages. It's just that the disadvantages are painted by the FUDsters as fatal flaws... So those of us who actually use EVs tend to fight back by pointing out how they either aren't even disadvantages at all, or how they're not as bad as the FUDsters say.

For example: The most common question I get asked about EVs is "How long does it take to charge from empty to full?"

That question is completely irrelevant. You pretty much never do that. But, everyone is used to having to go to a gas station to fill up their car. That's how they're looking at it, and the FUDsters are hamming it up. If you live in a situation where you absolutely cannot charge at home, then an EV is not for you, unless you can either charge at work or you're so dead-set on an EV that you don't mind spending some time each week going and sitting at a charger.

But for those of us who own a house, an EV doesn't really take any time to charge. Pull into the garage, plug it in as you walk into the house. Unplug as you walk into the garage, drive away.
 
aftCG said:
That may be the utopian vision but many of us will not be playing. When the cities are so dense that parking fees (and toll roads, gouging license fees and "just because" fees that we have here in WA) then I'm out. My wallet has already snapped shut on every business in the Seattle area because they are going out of their way to make it both inconvenient and expensive to drive there.

I'm sure I sound like a curmudgeon and that may be a fair assessment, so I'll recast this in terms that readers here may appreciate: self flying airplanes are on the way . They will make pilots a thing of the past. I know this because my employer is committed to making this true. After all, there's no reason to have pilots if a computer can do the job cheaper and easier.
How will you feel when the uberplanes make it so it's "dumb" to fly yourself around when you can cheaply get in back of some automated junk and get to your destination? And the Uber types bring the money to your airport and push out the mere mortals with Pipers?
If you're okay getting your $100 waffles that way, so be it.
Me, I love to fly. I don't get in a plane to get from A to B. I fly to see, smell, hear, and feel aviation.

I am the same way with my car. One key. In my pocket.
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all fun and games till a party sized quad copter filled with hipsters has a error and crashes into a condo filled with amazon tech bros
 
aftCG said:
Battery fires are still a real hazard.
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Meh. There have only been a handful... Gas cars burn WAY more often. I saw earlier this week that there were over 170,000 car fires last year. Something about carrying around a dozen or more gallons of a highly flammable liquid. ;)

Gerhardt said:
And many families won't need 2, 3, 4 vehicles. Mom and dad go to work, the car drives home on its own and takes the kids to school, then if they don't want it driving for uber it can take itself back to dad's work and wait for him to leave for the day.
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Yeah, that's been my thought for a while. We could have one car - Wife could drop the kid at day care and go to work, car would come back home, I'd go to work, it'd drive other people around for several hours making money, pick up my wife and kid, and then come pick me up.

Gerhardt said:
The only thing that bothers me about EV are the batteries that get changed out. Unless we find a way to recycle them that's a lot of toxic waste being drained into the land.
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Supposedly, they're very easy to recycle... But it's not happening a ton yet because none of them have gotten that bad that they're unusable - Right now, most of them get bought up by hobbyists who use them to build other EVs or put together arrays for home storage, hooked to their solar system. For example, a friend of mine bought a used Leaf battery and used part of it to build an electric motorcycle.

Bill Jennings said:
Teslas are still a statement car
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Meh... I'm not a "statement car" kind of guy, and I was really glad my Fusion Energi looked like a normal car (but for the badge), but I'd really like a Tesla. They don't look really weird like a lot of EVs do, and unless someone was really paying attention, they'd probably never notice it wasn't something else.

flhrci said:
Here is the burning question: If you recharge your phone with the USB ports, how many miles will you sacrifice?
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An iPhone Xs battery is about 13.3 Wh - That's about 1/20 of a mile of range. :D

Someone asked on Quora how much extra range you would get if you didn't use your turn signals... And that came out to about 13 inches. :rofl:

Matthew said:
I used to see a Tesla about once a month. It might have even been the same one. This week alone I've seen one per day, and they haven't been the same one.
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I've been seeing a lot more since the Model 3 has been getting produced in larger numbers as well. FWIW, KC is supposed to be pretty good in terms of EV infrastructure from what I've heard, but I remember talking about this particular trip of yours (Garden City, right?) and it'd still be a bit inconvenient.

Running an extension cord from an apartment or hotel to a parking lot might not be possible, so I'd have to find some way to charge in the middle of small-town-middle-of-nowhere-Kansas to keep from being stranded.
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It is possible to do the extension cord thing, and I've done that at a few hotels. Just be sure that you use an extension cord that's rated for significantly more (say, 30 amps) than you'll be using (12 amps) because if you're at the limits of the cord it's going to generate a lot of heat, which means more resistance, which means MORE heat, and so on.

TLDR: I'd like a Tesla, too, but I'd need to keep my gas car, or rent, for the highway trips that I take. For me, the Tesla would do about 80%+ of what I normally drive. But that 20% would be tough. If it was closer to 90/10 then renting a car for a couple days wouldn't be a problem, but at 80/20 it's a tougher sell.
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This is one reason why BMW seems like the smartest of the traditional OEMs: If you buy an i3, they'll let you use a BMW gasser for a couple weeks a year when you need to do a road trip.

EdFred said:
Electricity is free. Don't you know that? I bet if you dig hard enough, you'll find Tesla proponents that will claim that the power companies will pay you to recharge your car.
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Guys, help! We've gotta save Ed, he's finally gone off the deep end...

But, now that you mention it, if you look at my screen shot from the Volt thread, you'll see the "Rewards" tab. I don't know how it works exactly because my utility doesn't participate, but it basically allows them to have some control of when exactly your car charges and you can get some $$ back. Most people just get on a time-of-use plan and set their car or EVSE ("charger" even tho that's not technically correct) so that it automatically charges when power is the cheapest.

James331 said:
we have already covered how they stop and corner like a 1980’s sports car
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Huh? They corner really well, with no body roll thanks to the low CG.

So all I get is I can say I’m driving a electric car?
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A fun-to-drive car, the safest car on the road, a car that actually gets better over time, a smooth quiet car... But if you don't want one, don't get one!

Velocity173 said:
For me, I like to drive just like I like to pilot. The physical aspect of movement is only part of the attraction. My “cheaper” Model 3 that I configured came up to $40K and I didn’t even select autopilot.
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So, Standard Plus in gray or blue, with the 19" sport wheels? ;)

If I’m that physically incapable of driving, then I’m probably not physically capable of enjoying the destination once I arrive. In that case, I should just stay home and watch DVDs, or in my case, VHSs. :D
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:rofl:

So... Does your plane have an autopilot? I mean, I love to hand-fly too... But on long trips, I still love having an autopilot as well.

Also, never done Uber and can’t ever imagine using it.
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You should try - It can be really handy on flying trips. Or if you don't like Uber, use Lyft.

EdFred said:
Shoulda figured the Tesla Kool-Aid was Apple flavor!
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Hah! The Model 3 has a built-in spot for charging two smartphones, you can get dual iPhone connectors, dual micro USB, or one of each.
 
jesse said:
Heat is a by far easier problem to solve with an ICE. The ice has tons of excess heat that would otherwise be wasted. Any heat generated in an electric car will make for a noticeable range decrease, as heat takes watts, and a fair quantity. By the time you account for the battery performance losses and the heating losses you’re talking a range decrease in winter operations, realistically, around 40 percent, maybe more.

Crank the heat as hot as you want in an ICE and you will not measure any range decrease.

If you can leave the car plugged in the night before, then yeah it’ll be pre-heated like Kent claims, but the caveat is plugging it in.

Reality is, you’re going to learn to accept a colder temperature in your electric car on a long trip then you ever would have ran in your ICE. No worries - the koolaid will make you think it’s a feature.

ICE solves all this better. I leave my F150 parked outside. I can tell Alexa to start my truck, and it’ll preheat toasty as hell, even when it’s below zero. Then I can climb inside and drive 700 miles non-stop, which I do, every few months. Couple minutes at a pump and good for another 700. Buying gas at a pump is 100X less cold exposure then all these Tesla guys hiking it half a mile in the cold to the coffee shop while their battery charges so that they can sit there for 90 minutes and tell the internet how much sweeter their car is.

There is nothing about an electric car that makes it “better” as far as being ready for the driver whenever the driver wants and ensuring the driver is comfortable. Winter or summer - my F150 can do it many many times better.

These sort of lies will only hold the cars back. I respect the technology and the potential but I have little patience for the negatives being painted as if they’re wonderful features.

Hell I can schedule my ford to start itself and preheat on a schedule too, couple taps in the ford app, nothing special. Came that way OEM, including the integration with Alexa. Truck has a cellular modem for data and Ford covers the service.

Why does Kent have all this time to defend the glory of electric cars? Simple answer...he’s waiting for his damn battery to charge.
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Those cars have an air conditioner- that's just a heat pump. I wonder why they didn't also use it for heating, too? It's much more efficient than resistive heating because moving heat is more efficient than making heat.
https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/heat_pump_cabin_heater.html

For scooting around on business trip, I used a hybrid a couple of times and it was very fuel efficient. Not useful for everything, but it fitted my needs at the time well. An EV would probably suit 95% of my current driving.


PS..the link in your signature line is broken... http://www.nebraskaflight.com/
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yeah, that's been my thought for a while. We could have one car - Wife could drop the kid at day care and go to work, car would come back home, I'd go to work, it'd drive other people around for several hours making money, pick up my wife and kid, and then come pick me up . . .
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Make sure you account for the extra time to clean up the spilled food/drinks and air-out the smell of stale farts from the several hours of automated taxi-driving before it picked you up from work.
 
James331 said:
Per the $35,000 Tesla, so basically it’s a Toyota Camry, but with worse fit and finish, similar performance, less range and about $10,000 more?.
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It’s not similar performance than a $25k base Camry.

It’s similar performance to a Camry XSE v6, but the XSE costs $35000...
 
To answer the OP. Love the car and the improvements every week or so. Bought the full automatic driving package will get the new computer, added mileage, expect to get the 5% performance increase.

FOR MY MISSION it is just great. 270-325 miles per fill up is absolutely more than enough. I have gone to where I needed to spend time at a supercharger and have charged overnight at a hotel. Really not a big problem and was about 1/3 the price of gas (california where the fuel price is just WOW.)

I can carry 8 foot ladders and all the groceries my wife and I can eat and trips to Costco for Bales of whatever. Enjoying not going to the gas station, smog station, oil changes brake jobs. First electric car and it works for me.

Many of us need pickups ... it is not a pickup, or a tractor, or a Semi, but it is a great quiet go-fast car and my wife loves the acceleration that is way quicker than the Vette we just trade in for it.

Like our planes --pick one that fits your mission. I am happy for those that want planes with Chutes, and I have a 69 172 that fits my mission.

Not sure why there are those that rail against Tesla who is employing people and providing product also want to have employment opportunities within the US.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
So, Standard Plus in gray or blue, with the 19" sport wheels? ;)
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Standard Plus with Midnight Silver Metallic and 19”. Looks gray on the website but real pics looks more silver. Had to go with the immersive sound system because all the reviews say if it’s one thing to get, it’s that. Don’t care for the basic rims / caps whatever they are so definitely the 19”.

I’d might have to rethink the auto pilot option because even though I’m a hands on person, in the long run the $3,000 might save me a bit in insurance premiums.
 
What kind of maintenance schedule does a Tesla have?

How about long term reliability? Have they been out long enough to know what parts are going to rust, corrode, get brittle?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Those cars have an air conditioner- that's just a heat pump. I wonder why they didn't also use it for heating, too? It's much more efficient than resistive heating because moving heat is more efficient than making heat.
https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/heat_pump_cabin_heater.html

For scooting around on business trip, I used a hybrid a couple of times and it was very fuel efficient. Not useful for everything, but it fitted my needs at the time well. An EV would probably suit 95% of my current driving.


PS..the link in your signature line is broken... http://www.nebraskaflight.com/
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I thought Tesla and BMW were dual mode. Resistance heat in the seats, steering wheel, windows.... Cabin air is heated via the heat pump.

Tim
 
once a year call the service to stop by my place...
Snide answer to long term reliability.... been watching the ford chevy honda .. recalls lately .... they all (including tesla) have problems.
what will wear out ?? there are fewer parts so could very well be fewer things to break.
Long term... I am over 70 so I bet I will have something less than 20 years to worry about that. I am also a old age computer builder and fully expect to keep up with the tech and sell the current Tesla to you when you need a self driving car to get you to your poker game :)
Not an attack --we are having fun here and there is way too much strife in OUR United States today.
(Response to Matthew)
 
Matthew said:
What kind of maintenance schedule does a Tesla have?

How about long term reliability? Have they been out long enough to know what parts are going to rust, corrode, get brittle?
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I asked that question when I picked up my car and the guy said “Keep the wiper fluid full.”

In reality, they recommend tire rotations every 6500 miles and there’s a service visit every 2 years. But you can skip every other and still be covered under warranty. Brakes will last 100,000+ miles thanks to regenerative braking. (I only touch the brake pedal when I want to come to a COMPLETE stop.)

I read a story the other day about a guy who rolled over 100,000 miles and spent $650 on maintenance during that time (not counting tires). To be fair, he was a high mileage driver, so I think he only had the car ~3 years.
 
Nice.

I'm in the process of replacing half my exhaust system, including the cat. Something that doesn't exist on an EV.
 
Glad to see the Teslas out and wish they had been 9 months sooner. Last year was when my engine went kaput and I had to buy something. Ok, I didn't have to, but I spent 15 years driving a Civic that I despised so it was the perfect excuse for buying a new car. A Tesla is what I wanted, but I couldn't wait, so I had to settle for a Leaf.

Regardless, I love driving it.
 
Matthew said:
Nice.

I'm in the process of replacing half my exhaust system, including the cat. Something that doesn't exist on an EV.
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I too had to do that on Dual exhaust ... arrg not pleasant. BTW the Tesla M3 is quite stiff without having to go to the 19 or 20 inch wheels and the risk for pothole damage is reduced. I was used to stiff and flat cornering but the low Center of Gravity makes the Tesla very crisp.
 
The telsa looks a little less appealing compared to this https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/01/2019-hyundai-kona-ev-car-review/
After rebate its cheaper, longer range than the 3. The ICE kona seems well liked and that trend seems to be continuing.
As the other big manufacturers start bringing better and better EV's online wonder how well tesla will keep up.
 
falconkidding said:
The telsa looks a little less appealing compared to this https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/01/2019-hyundai-kona-ev-car-review/
After rebate its cheaper, longer range than the 3. The ICE kona seems well liked and that trend seems to be continuing.
As the other big manufacturers start bringing better and better EV's online wonder how well tesla will keep up.
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Last I looked the Kona was a compliance car (it will only be available in California). Has this changed?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I had an aunt, uncle, and two cousins who lived in Tohatchi for several years, and had to go to Gallup for... Well, everything.
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Yeah, Tohatchi is still rather smallish. I have been to airports bigger than that town. I am guessing they were teachers at the school there.??
 
deonb said:
Last I looked the Kona was a compliance car (it will only be available in California). Has this changed?
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initial release in california and the western states ahead of a wide rollout. I think the Kia Niro is similar.
 
patrick wentworth said:
once a year call the service to stop by my place...
Snide answer to long term reliability.... been watching the ford chevy honda .. recalls lately .... they all (including tesla) have problems.
what will wear out ?? there are fewer parts so could very well be fewer things to break.
Long term... I am over 70 so I bet I will have something less than 20 years to worry about that. I am also a old age computer builder and fully expect to keep up with the tech and sell the current Tesla to you when you need a self driving car to get you to your poker game :)
Not an attack --we are having fun here and there is way too much strife in OUR United States today.
(Response to Matthew)
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Poker? I hardly even know her!

I was only half kidding.

My folks live in a retirement village. A self driving car, even one that requires some human interaction, might bring a longer period of independence.
 
Level 5 and/or driverless cars are decades away - your car isn't going to drop you at work then go home and pick up your spouse, electric or ICE. Not my observation - from a guy working on the leading edge; his company is running automated trucks now, with human drivers on-board. Big, big leap from "automated" to "autonomous/driverless".

Electrics sure have a place - probably not Tesla, per se, but the industry. I'd buy one now, if the numbers made sense for me; but they don't. ICE is just more efficient in terms of acqusition and operating cost, for my needs.

If my situation/mission changes in retirement, I'll reconsider; likely a model from a traditional car maker, however.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Those cars have an air conditioner- that's just a heat pump. I wonder why they didn't also use it for heating, too? It's much more efficient than resistive heating because moving heat is more efficient than making heat.
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Isn't that only true to a point, though? I mean, getting a +100ºF rise out of it this time of year seems like it'd take an awful lot...

falconkidding said:
The telsa looks a little less appealing compared to this https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/01/2019-hyundai-kona-ev-car-review/
After rebate its cheaper, longer range than the 3. The ICE kona seems well liked and that trend seems to be continuing.
As the other big manufacturers start bringing better and better EV's online wonder how well tesla will keep up.
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Interesting. That does look like a nice vehicle. I hope they move it beyond California soon, and produce plenty of them... That's been the problem with some of the other EVs like the Chevy Bolt. Supposedly, GM is losing $10K per copy, which they make up for by being able to sell uber-expensive SUVs and pickups in CARB states, but of course they don't want to make any more of them than they absolutely have to, so supply isn't near enough to keep up with demand and people are paying sticker for them.

The other thing is that without the Tesla supercharger network, it is going to be limited in terms of what it can do. :( I would really love to have our other car (currently a Nissan Rogue) be at least a hybrid. However, the Kona's range is kinda iffy for me. Like I said, I need 200 miles in the dead of winter, and 258 rated probably isn't enough, especially without a fast charging network. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is interesting, but its electric range of only 22 miles is too short in this day and age. It's actually one of the most popular EVs worldwide, but for some reason Mitsu didn't introduce it in the US until just the last few months, which was a really boneheaded move IMO. Now they're a bit behind the curve, as the Kona shows.

One thing that's odd to me is that none of these non-Tesla vehicles offer a bigger battery as an option. That may be due to Tesla's battery costs being significantly lower than the others' thanks to Gigafactory 1, and the compliance car philosophy, but come on!

Zeldman said:
Yeah, Tohatchi is still rather smallish. I have been to airports bigger than that town. I am guessing they were teachers at the school there.??
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BIngo. :thumbsup:

Matthew said:
My folks live in a retirement village. A self driving car, even one that requires some human interaction, might bring a longer period of independence.
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Yes! And when it gets to at least Level 4, it's going to really change the lives of the elderly, the blind, people with seizure disorders, or anyone else who can't drive today. Our country really isn't set up for people who can't drive.
 
Sundancer said:
Level 5 and/or driverless cars are decades away - your car isn't going to drop you at work then go home and pick up your spouse, electric or ICE. Not my observation - from a guy working on the leading edge; his company is running automated trucks now, with human drivers on-board. Big, big leap from "automated" to "autonomous/driverless".

Electrics sure have a place - probably not Tesla, per se, but the industry. I'd buy one now, if the numbers made sense for me; but they don't. ICE is just more efficient in terms of acqusition and operating cost, for my needs.

If my situation/mission changes in retirement, I'll reconsider; likely a model from a traditional car maker, however.
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Level 5 covers all the edge cases.

Borderline level 4 will make a huge impact on society in a few ways:
1. Replacing golf carts in retirement villages, how much more independence will that provide?
2. From door to garage. The car may not be trusted to drive under all conditions, but for large potion of the population of the USA they can drive the route a few times from their door to the parking garage and the car can learn it and drive it in most conditions. Further, the way the cars would likely be networked, the coverage area would keep expanding.
3. Long range truck hauling; remove the driver for the interstate portions.

Level 3, has the potential to dramatically allow the elderly to safely drive longer. Lowers the stress on driving, so in theory truckers could do longer shifts, reduce accidents for cab drivers, delivery vehicles...


Tim
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Isn't that only true to a point, though? I mean, getting a +100ºF rise out of it this time of year seems like it'd take an awful lot...
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Actually, no, it isn't as bad as you'd think. If you're really interested, I'll post the math. I'm actually very surprised someone didn't do it earlier than Nissan, so there may be (probably is) something I'm overlooking.
OTOH, I just got published for a chromatography procedure that is so simple that the people who talk to me about it literally do a face-palm and wonder why no one thought of it earlier.
 
tspear said:
I thought Tesla and BMW were dual mode. Resistance heat in the seats, steering wheel, windows.... Cabin air is heated via the heat pump.

Tim
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They might well be, and they didn't promote it as well as Nissan. The use of heat pumps suggests that loss of range should be similar in summer as well as winter (cabin at 60 °F, 20 °F winter temperature, 100 °F summer). That's the same temperature differential but the heat moving in opposite directions. I'm only looking at the heat pump, and not including any temperature related changes to the battery.
 
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jesse said:
Indeed, by intention, and it’s going to stay that way (the website being down that is).

The broken link might get removed someday. But I wouldn’t count on it.
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JOOC, why keep a non-working link? Admittedly harms no one, except for a very slight sense of bewilderment and frustration if someone is actually looking for those services and doesn't know the history.
 
I only skimmed this thread so it's possible that I missed some details that others posted.

There's been mention of other EVs being manufactured. I'm curious if there has been a meeting of minds to come up with a standardized plug so one go on cross country trips without worrying about where to get the next shot of juice.

BTW... The Model 3 has peaked my interest. However, the ~$55k price tag makes me hesitant to pull the trigger for what will amount to being a grocery hauler.
 
Anymouse said:
I only skimmed this thread
...
The Model 3 has peaked my interest. However, the ~$55k price tag makes me hesitant to pull.
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Gist of this thread is that the price tag is now $35k
 
Anymouse said:
I'm curious if there has been a meeting of minds to come up with a standardized plug so one go on cross country trips without worrying about where to get the next shot of juice.
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That has been on my mind as well. I mean every time I got a new cell phone I had to get a new charger because the connections were always different.
 
I don't own an EV, but have been following Tesla for a while. Musk's antics aside, I've always been impressed with the product, and their business model, and I do think they spurred some serious research and competition in alternatives to ICE vehicles, so in that regard, I hope they're successful and stick around. They certainly have some financial hurdles to overcome, though.

The other thing I'm glad of is that there's finally an alternative to the traditional dealership sales model, which I've thought for a long time was an outdated dinosaur of a model that needed some serious competition. Not saying it needed to go away, just that some new business models needed to be out there to give people choices and spur competition. I feel the same about the taxi vs ride-sharing models.

When I hear of established players like car dealerships and taxi companies complaining about their model being threatened by upstarts, and then lining the pockets of politicians to get them in their corner with stupid regulation, etc, then I really start hoping the upstarts eat their lunch. This is the 21st century - new business models are coming, driven by advances in technology and consumers changing their buying habits and willing to eliminate brick-and-mortar shopping and middlemen, so get used to it. Any business stuck in an old way of doing things (as I think traditional car dealerships, taxi companies, etc, are) are going to get steamrolled. Adapt and survive, or perish. Hello Amazon, goodbye Sears (and I'm quite nostalgic for Sears and hate to see them go, but they're a dinosaur and didn't evolve).

Okay, rant over. TL;DR - I'm just glad to see alternatives for shopping for vehicles. If I were in the market for an EV, and I selected a Tesla, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it online and forget the dealership and middleman entirely.
 
tspear said:
Level 5 covers all the edge cases.

Borderline level 4 will make a huge impact on society in a few ways:
1. Replacing golf carts in retirement villages, how much more independence will that provide?

...

Tim
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In my folks' case, dad still drives. I don't think there's a week where they don't have at least one appointment someplace. Uber or shuttle buses can work, but personal transportation is still the simplest for someone still able to drive.
 
Matthew said:
In my folks' case, dad still drives. I don't think there's a week where they don't have at least one appointment someplace. Uber or shuttle buses can work, but personal transportation is still the simplest for someone still able to drive.
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But as you become a less frequent user, Uber (for example) does become easier because you don't have to worry about maintenance, registration, washing the darned thing, putting gas in, getting stuck on the side of the road, etc. You just plug a little information into an app, and the car appears a few minutes later.
 
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