The Anachronistic Pilot

Pi1otguy

Pi1otguy

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
2,477
Location
Fontana, CA
Display Name
Display name:
Fox McCloud
Long story short I got my PPL in 2001 as GPS and glass cockpits were making to the higher and mid level planes. Got my IR then ran out of AMUs in 2007. Found a few and became current last year.

During my last checkout the CFI joked about me flipping the TAC, that it was "nice to know some people still know how to use them." It was then I realized just how behind the times I am. I can pilotage my way almost anywhere with a sectional and a compass, but why was I? I could hit simply direct on the 430.

Darn it if years of GPS outage NOTAMs back in the day hasn't tainted my view of its reliability. But I guess it's time to embrace the tech and finally look for an iPad.

So I guess I've got 2 questions.
1) How's GPS reliability these days? It feels like those gigantic GPS interference tests are less frequent now.
2) What size iPad do you use? I'm trying to figure out screen size vs the limit space in the cockpit.
3) Are we still required to carry paper charts if we have them electronically?
 
Also, where'd all the ADFs go? Haven't encountered a plane with a one since becoming current. Actually where'd all the NDBs go?
 
Pi1otguy said:
What size iPad do you use?
Click to expand...
Kinda like "I want to build an airplane, which RV kit should I buy?" :)

Wallmart 8 inch onn tablet running Android and Avare.
Glare from above is an issue if it's sitting on my lap (I have a clear overhead).

Pi1otguy said:
Are we still required to carry paper charts if we have them electronically?
Click to expand...
I still get them, but it's getting ridiculous. I may give up on updating them and just carry an obsolete set "just in case"
 
Even if GPS goes out and/or you lose ADSB-In connectivity, the EFB on your tablet or phone will still have sectionals available to use for old-school nav. I still have 3 old sectionals in the seat back pocket, but have my EFBs too - my phone which I never use, iPad mini that I use, and a larger antique iPad that I use for plates sometimes or passenger following along on a map - all able to be charged on ship power.

If some kind of EMF event, well...
 
Pi1otguy said:
So I guess I've got 2 questions.
1) How's GPS reliability these days? It feels like those gigantic GPS interference tests are less frequent now.
2) What size iPad do you use? I'm trying to figure out screen size vs the limit space in the cockpit.
3) Are we still required to carry paper charts if we have them electronically?
Click to expand...

1) GPS is far more reliable than counting on a working VOR or glideslope in my experience.
2) I use an iPad mini with a yoke mount. I don't like the idea of blocking my view of the panel with a larger iPad, but that's a personal choice. I have no problem seeing enough of the sectional on a mini, since you can always zoom in.
3) Were we ever required to have charts? In any case, electronic charts are a legal replacement for paper. I have an old paper set in back just in case, but don't bother updating them more than once every few years.

If you fly IFR, one thing to consider is cellular vs. non-cellular iPad. A non-cell iPad may only recieve GPS location information from your panel GPS (depending on the configuration). If you have a total electrical failure, then you're completely out of navigation options (including getting vectors from ATC). If you have independent GPS on your iPad then you at least have a backup.
 
Pi1otguy said:
…So I guess I've got 2 questions.
1) How's GPS reliability these days? It feels like those gigantic GPS interference tests are less frequent now.
2) What size iPad do you use? I'm trying to figure out screen size vs the limit space in the cockpit.
3) Are we still required to carry paper charts if we have them electronically?
Click to expand...

That’s 3 questions, but here goes:

1. I feel fear of GPS reliability is overblown unless it’s your sole navigation equipment and you’re IFR.

2a. Unless you’re dedicated to Apple, look at the Android tablets, in the 8-10” range. Avare is a free/open source EFB for android. There’s FltPlan Go that works on both and has web, too. I run iFly GPS on droids and iThings and PCs and it works best for me at a reasonable price point. I tried the Garmin and Foreflight products, but Garmin is different experiences on different platforms and Foreflight is iOS only.

2. Spring for a stratux gps/ahars/adsb receiver to get the most out of your efb. Unless you go Garmin/Foreflight, then you gotta spring for proprietary solutions.

3. No.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Long story short I got my PPL in 2001 as GPS and glass cockpits were making to the higher and mid level planes. Got my IR then ran out of AMUs in 2007. Found a few and became current last year.

During my last checkout the CFI joked about me flipping the TAC, that it was "nice to know some people still know how to use them." It was then I realized just how behind the times I am. I can pilotage my way almost anywhere with a sectional and a compass, but why was I? I could hit simply direct on the 430.

Darn it if years of GPS outage NOTAMs back in the day hasn't tainted my view of its reliability. But I guess it's time to embrace the tech and finally look for an iPad.

So I guess I've got 2 questions.
1) How's GPS reliability these days? It feels like those gigantic GPS interference tests are less frequent now.
2) What size iPad do you use? I'm trying to figure out screen size vs the limit space in the cockpit.
3) Are we still required to carry paper charts if we have them electronically?
Click to expand...
pretty good
mini
no
 
Get a big capacity iPad with cell capability (has internal GPS activated), Foreflight or Garmin Pilot. Backup copy on your iPhone. Paper not needed. Everyone is flying via gps now and outages are rare, backup with your VOR capability.
 
re ADF, they *finally* stopped testing private pilots on ADF use. But, if an aircraft has an ADF in it, the examiner can quiz you on it during the checkride. I think those two things, plus that nobody uses them much anymore, is why you don't see ADF's in anything used for training anymore Just my guess. Oh, and because why maintain something that you don't use.
 
TCABM said:
That’s 3 questions, but here goes:

1. I feel fear of GPS reliability is overblown unless it’s your sole navigation equipment and you’re IFR.

2a. Unless you’re dedicated to Apple, look at the Android tablets, in the 8-10” range. Avare is a free/open source EFB for android. There’s FltPlan Go that works on both and has web, too. I run iFly GPS on droids and iThings and PCs and it works best for me at a reasonable price point. I tried the Garmin and Foreflight products, but Garmin is different experiences on different platforms and Foreflight is iOS only.

2. Spring for a stratux gps/ahars/adsb receiver to get the most out of your efb. Unless you go Garmin/Foreflight, then you gotta spring for proprietary solutions.

3. No.
Click to expand...
Stratux (raspberry pi DIY) works just find with ForeFlight.
 
1) How's GPS reliability these days? -- Reliability is high, but be wary near Holloman AFB NM and White Sands Missile Range. And an EMP event, as observed above. That could ruin many people's days, not just pilots.

2) What size iPad do you use? I'm trying to figure out screen size vs the limit space in the cockpit. -- Go to the mfr's web sites, looks up the dimensions, make cardboard cutouts, and sit in the cockpit with them and figure out what might work best. Add 1/2" to each dimension for case/cradle. I've never found a good spot in my cockpit, so I just hold it in my lap. That works for me VFR; if I flew IFR then I would get serious about mounting it. Also take into account your age and vision and consider if full size would serve you best, even if a mini fits better.

3) Are we still required to carry paper charts if we have them electronically? -- We keep a local sectional in the plane as a backup. Not sure how old though. Probably not this decade.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Good ones?
Click to expand...

Depends on how you define “good”, but my Samsung Tab A7 is ~$200 with GPS and does the job as good as or better than an iPad given the same app experience on the two different platforms.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
If you have a total electrical failure, then you're completely out of navigation options (including getting vectors from ATC).
Click to expand...


No, you’re in the same situation as though you were flying with paper charts. And if you’re flying with steam gauges, even in an electrical failure you still have a heading gyro and an attitude indicator.
 
In my limited experience, GPS reliability is better than VOR reliability.

IPads are too dim in bright sunlight and they also overheat on a hot day. You can get an Android tablet that’s readable in daylight and have your choice of several apps for much less money than an iPad with ForeFlight. Personally, I’m using an iFly 740 that’s velcro’d to my panel. Works fine.

No legal requirement for paper, but it would be wise to have paper or a backup device.
 
wilkersk said:
I've got almost 400 hours in the last 3 years with an iPad/Sentry and a handheld radio as my ONLY avionics. No paper charts. And, most of the time, the GPS is accurate to within 3 meters.

This article might be a timely read for you: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...service_units/techops/navservices/gbng/vormon
Click to expand...


Important thing to notice from the article is that VOR coverage will only be guaranteed from 5000’ AGL and up.

As a VFR pilot I’m often constrained to a lower altitude by a cloud deck. My odds of having useable GPS are frequently better than my odds of having useable VORs.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
If you have a total electrical failure, then you're completely out of navigation options (including getting vectors from ATC).
Click to expand...

Half Fast said:
No, you’re in the same situation as though you were flying with paper charts. And if you’re flying with steam gauges, even in an electrical failure you still have a heading gyro and an attitude indicator.
Click to expand...
Yup…although my wristwatch IS technically electric, so a “total electrical failure” would kill that, too. ;)
AlleyCat67 said:
If you have independent GPS on your iPad then you at least have a backup.
Click to expand...
But I suppose if the backup iPad would survive the total electrical failure, my watch would, too.
 
Half Fast said:
No, you’re in the same situation as though you were flying with paper charts. And if you’re flying with steam gauges, even in an electrical failure you still have a heading gyro and an attitude indicator.
Click to expand...

I specified IFR in my response. What good do paper charts do you in IMC, with no radios and no GPS?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Yup…although my wristwatch IS technically electric, so a “total electrical failure” would kill that, too. ;)

But I suppose if the backup iPad would survive the total electrical failure, my watch would, too.
Click to expand...

Now that's a Youtube video I'd like to see - someone doing an IFR approach to minimums using only their iWatch as a GPS source ;)
 
Half Fast said:
Important thing to notice from the article is that VOR coverage will only be guaranteed from 5000’ AGL and up.

As a VFR pilot I’m often constrained to a lower altitude by a cloud deck. My odds of having useable GPS are frequently better than my odds of having useable VORs.
Click to expand...

I would think central Florida, like a good portion of the more populated USA, would still have adequate coverage at the lower service volumes though.
vorupdate2021-002.jpg
 
AlleyCat67 said:
I specified IFR in my response. What good do paper charts do you in IMC, with no radios and no GPS?
Click to expand...


The same good they did 30 years ago when all you had was paper anyway. Or did you just give up and die if you had an electrical failure in IMC back then?
 
wilkersk said:
I would think central Florida, like a good portion of the more populated USA, would still have adequate coverage at the lower service volumes though.
vorupdate2021-002.jpg
Click to expand...


All I know is, the last time I tried to use the La Belle VOR I was at 3500’ and couldn’t get a reliable signal until I was about 15 miles from it.
 
Pi1otguy said:
So I guess I've got 2 questions.
1) How's GPS reliability these days? It feels like those gigantic GPS interference tests are less frequent now.
2) What size iPad do you use? I'm trying to figure out screen size vs the limit space in the cockpit.
3) Are we still required to carry paper charts if we have them electronically?
Click to expand...

Is it optional to answer 2? Just asking, for a friend.

1) very reliable, but if it goes out be prepared.
2) 8" Lenovo Android tablet - $79. iFlyGPS and a Crewdog Electronics Stratux for ADSB-in. Always on and always works.
3) I just got my ticket punched in April 2021. My instructor and I discussed this point and while he indicated it's not a requirement it is advisable to always have a paper just in case you have a failure. But he was adamant that meeting with the DPE to state I have electronic as primary and a paper as a backup. DPE was an older (I was 57 at the time and he was older than me) gentleman with tons of experience, he smiled and said - "Right answer." I keep it in my flight bag and actually laid it out on the table Friday morning while planning a x-ctry to a new area and practicing with a new Garmin GTN 650, and VOR's for grins - nailed it!

My career has been in GPS for 36+ years and I know it well. So, maybe it's age but I'm thinking "be prepared" is a good idea.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Now that's a Youtube video I'd like to see - someone doing an IFR approach to minimums using only their iWatch as a GPS source ;)
Click to expand...
Since I said MY watch, I’m assuming it’s just got three hands for keeping track of time. I’m also assuming that, per my normal preflight planning, I know where I can go to not have to shoot an approach to minimums…which, 90+ % of the time is my destination. :D
 
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